I could use some advice about a builder

Old 09-19-16, 12:24 PM
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I could use some advice about a builder

I've had my FD for well over 10 years. This is my 2nd rebuild. The 1st one, done by Karack ran great over dozens of track days and other abuses. +1 for Rotary Evolution. The only reason I needed a rebuild is because one of the turbos imploded on the dyno and sent itself through the engine.

So, this time I decided that since I had a few bucks, I'd go big and have the motor done by a place that has a great rep and seems to be one of the best builders of rotary engines in the US. I don't wanna name names at this point.
It's about three months later, I'm in over 6500 dollars for a longblock (paid in full up front three months ago), and the engine showed up last week. With no turbos. Surprise!
We asked about the turbos and was told that they're just not available. They just sold their last set.

Remember, I paid in full MONTHS ago. I was already getting pissed because the 4-6 weeks they told me it would take to build the motor was doubled. I don't know if they plan on refunding the money, or holding it till they find a set of 99 spec turbos or what.
A few things I'm certain about is that summer is over, I never went to the track at all, I didn't get what I paid for, I seem to be getting punished for paying up front and my FD is still in pieces.

What would you do? Wait and be nice? Call them and snap? Maybe call the BBB and ask for advice? Call BNR and have another 2500 bucks ready? I'm already in for about 10K total with this refurbish of the FD. Whats another 2500 bucks, right? LOL

Name names here?

Last edited by GoodfellaFD3S; 12-05-16 at 07:44 PM. Reason: mistaken identity
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Old 09-19-16, 01:38 PM
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6500 for a long block assembly, seems to me that would include turbos and manifolds etc.
Was that the understanding with the builder when you payed? Did you have an itemized invoice for the work and parts?
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Old 09-19-16, 03:54 PM
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I would ask for my money back for the turbos and if it is a reputable shop they should honor that request. If they do not, I would contact the BBB and take that route. Judging from your post I am assuming the shop is responding to your calls and they are fairly nice to deal with so that is why you are not putting them on blast. If they are truly nice to deal with then they should refund your money.

Also, $2500 is $2500. It does not matter if you already spent $10k or $100k. Finally, it is a matter of principle. Shops should not get away with screwing people over. You give your hard earned money and trust to them and they should respect that by giving back great service and honesty.

By the way, judging from your location, Ricks Rotary Performance is only an hour away. I'm not sure if you are using them or not but if not, than you should check them out in the future. I have heard a lot of good things about this shop in the past.
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Old 09-20-16, 11:43 AM
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Thanks for the replies. ArmAni, I think I'll take your advice and ask for the turbo money back, then hit up BNR. I guess it'll take them a couple/few weeks to get my new turbos to me, so...yeah, track season's completely gone.

I do have an itemized receipt that includes 99spec turbos. What pisses me off is that they sold MY turbos. If I paid months ago, then why did they sell the only turbos they had after my promised delivery date? They were spoken for by me. That's a little shady or thoughtless or something. Now they told me they'd "try to find another set" for me.

When they told me that they just sold their last set of turbos (weeks/months after I gave them my money) I was pretty much over it. We've been hounding them for the engine and I was honestly glad to have SOMEthing delivered before it starts raining every day.
I called Ricks, Rotorsport and Mr.Mazda before this ordeal but they were all booked for months as far as a rebuild goes. Plus this place has such a great rep, I figured that I'd go big and buy the best for my car this time around.

I just hope everyone is right and the engine itself is built well. Turbos are turbos, but a well built rotary engine is hard to come by and dealing with this crap is no fun.
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Old 09-20-16, 12:39 PM
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I wish you luck Natey. Please keep us posted on this situation.
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Old 09-20-16, 02:41 PM
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The BBB does absolutely nothing to help you, call your credit card company. If the shop can not supply the part they sold you, then the money should be refunded without question.

I can also tell you that the 99's are in stock, we just got a set for a customer's car.

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Old 09-21-16, 11:04 AM
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Call Rx7.com and see if they have them. Most shops get the 99spec turbos thru them. I would also just ask for the money back on the turbos. If they refuse; put in a chargeback. Although there is a time limit on how long you have to put in a chargeback.
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Old 09-21-16, 11:12 AM
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Thanks again, you guys, for the replies and advice.


They're coming through for me and making things right. Yes, the wait is/was kinda out of hand and there was a mix-up about the turbos. (I guess they're not included for my 6500 bucks. At one point someone said they'd throw some in, but that didn't happen.)

The good news is there will be a set of BNRs on their way here soon and hopefully my FD will be back in action by Halloween or so.

Last edited by Natey; 09-21-16 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 09-22-16, 08:32 AM
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I would like to know what shop you used for the motor.
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Old 09-22-16, 11:24 AM
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Once the engine's in and running I'll update this thread. What I can tell you is they are making things right with me as far as the turbos go. You don't get a reputation like them unless you care about your customers, which they seem to do.
Looking back at our correspondence, I saw that when they mentioned the turbos, they told me they'd throw in a set IF they had them at the shop, which apparently they didn't. They were never shady or going back on promises though. I just got a little excited I guess.
After all's said and done, my car will be sportin' a new set of better turbos than I thought anyway.
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Old 11-28-16, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Natey View Post
I've had my FD for well over 10 years. This is my 2nd rebuild. The 1st one, done by Karack ran great over dozens of track days and other abuses. +1 for Rotary Evolution. The only reason I needed a rebuild is because one of the turbos imploded on the dyno and sent itself through the engine.
sorry to thread jack, just wanted to correct the name.

+1 on the chargeback for the price you paid for the turbos. it is rather shady that they didn't offer you the refund immediately and instead said "we might try to find another".

Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-28-16 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 11-29-16, 12:39 AM
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Oh crap, sorry Ben. What a brain fart. lol

Rotary Evolution!
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Old 12-05-16, 05:55 PM
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Can anyone tell me what a longblock engine usually consists of?
I feel like I'm getting nickel and dimed to death on things like an airpump and oil pan. So far I'm at the 6500 I paid for the engine, 1700 for the turbos, and another 700+ on sensors, gaskets motor mounts, and other stuff from Atkins and Mazdatrix. They didn't even include the spark plugs that I paid for and are on my receipt. Wires, yes, plugs, no.

Man, what a months long migraine this is. If I could turn the clock back, I would have had Rotary Evolution rebuild it again, and been on the track last summer.

To answer questions from earlier in this ordeal, the motor is from Addicted.

Last edited by Natey; 12-05-16 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 12-05-16, 10:41 PM
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a longblock for a rotary engine usually consists of everything that normally bolts to the engine up to the cat, it usually even includes a transmission but that is between you the seller.

basically it includes just about everything you need for the engine to run short of the ECU and fuel.

the last longblock i sold included a transmission, ECU, wiring harness, fuel rails/injectors, manifolds emissions, AFM, alternator, belts, oil cooler, etc(granted that was an S5 FC, but most of those FD parts aren't in high demand, yet). in some cases like V8 engines a long block just consists of the short block plus heads, valve covers, oil pan and sometimes intake manifold. but it's rare i see anyone call a rotary long block anything short of a virtually running engine with everything attached short of what is part of the actual car. most of that stuff even for an FD is cheap and easy to come by, so if he's trying to run your bill up, you might want to consider some legal threats.

the rotary engine has no heads, so the term longblock usually consists of the above. be kinda stupid to call a rotary short block an engine without an oil pan and a longblock an engine with just an oil pan.... by the sound of it he isn't even including that in a "long block"! long blocks are usually what we get when we buy a Jspec engine, a complete assembly, at least that is how i treat anyone who wants a long block/complete engine. anything else is a short block with additional parts.

sounds like he is just trying to make up for the turbos he screwed you out of.... :/

shady business practices.

i still build and deliver engines all the way over there(though i don't think i'd have 100% of everything for a california fitted FD longblock still), sorry you're dealing with this sort of fluff. i had figured we weeded out most of these shops by now, but i guess only the strong survive, which includes the greedy. yes i realize a core engine is going to run about 2 grand and the turbos are another large chunk of cheddar, but it annoys me seeing these shops selling rebuilds for 3 grand+, when realistically it can be done in less than a day for a pair of motivated individuals.

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Old 12-06-16, 10:42 AM
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So selling a 6500 dollar longblock engine with no oil pan isn't how it usually works?

lol, I already know the answer, and I keep finding more missing stuff. I swear to God I feel like they punished me for paying up front. I should have given them a deposit, then emailed them everyday for a month complaining and holding out on what I owed. Then they would have had some...inspiration to keep me satisfied. That's not my style though

I feel like I didn't get what I paid for.

Last edited by Natey; 12-06-16 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 12-06-16, 11:16 AM
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you should never pay in full on anything until you have received a product in full or at least the completed product is ready to be sent, i don't even prefer people to pay me in full up front, knowing i lose the incentive to finish the job once that is done.

the problem and growing trend is that many shops tend to reel you in and then double the prices by the time the job is done, which i guess is why i can picture wanting to just pay for it all up front in the hopes that the price won't change. but any half decent shop won't continue to change their prices unless you change the quoted work list. ive built 400 engines, i know how long it takes to put one together, i also know exactly how many parts go onto one, i have no clue why some of these "expert" shops have such a hard time with that.

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Old 12-06-16, 11:38 AM
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Good advice, and lesson learned for sure.
I just happened to come up on a few bucks and wanted to buy the engine before the dough burned a hole in my pocket, ya know? I really wasn't thinking about that stuff at all. I guess it is true though. A reason to treat me well might have made the difference here.

I figured I'd pay them and a couple weeks later I'd have my engine. That was in July.
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Old 12-07-16, 10:22 AM
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sorry for the ordeal you're going through, seems to happen all too often these days.
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Old 12-10-16, 01:25 PM
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We have been in contact with the original poster. Personally have been talking to Julie on the phone to get all of this straight.

Both parties seemed to have had a miscommunication on the entire transaction. We felt like we have gone above and beyond ( and still willing to do whatever to make everyone feel like they got what they wanted).

SO the attached invoice was "signed" off on before the deposit was placed. So that is what we went by. A FULL complete longblock was only mentioned in the very first inquiry we received, after that many different ideas of what was wanted were discussed and the idea of bolting things on when the motor was received was the plan.

All of the messages we received were from the motor installer not the OP, and i think a relay of information is a big culprit to blame.

We did not require 100% money down. That was the buyers choice. We only requested the 75% ( on the invoice) due to so many new OEM parts, ( that we sold at or below our cost)

First off the turbos. At no time did we charge ANYONE $2500 for turbos. The discussion on the turbos were that we could include a set if we had one that we felt comfortable with......at no cost....... But as many people know a good set of stock twins are sometimes hard to come by. Sets that someone for 100% know are good. So we would not of charged for them anyway due to the fact we could not 100% say they were good.

So after the motor was received we received the first phone call on being upset no turbos were included ( which like i said were never paid for or guaranteed). So they were unhappy.... So i informed them that we did not have a set here we trust and asked if they would be interested in a set of Brand new BNR stage 3s at our cost of $1800 ( with shipping) and then i could supply a set of turbos to Bryan ( like i said was never paid for) because they were upset!! That is no big deal. I DO not want them to be upset.


One complaint that they had was the time period that it took to get the motor in their hands from the day of purchase. I agree that it did take longer than quoted. I apologized plenty of times, but.....

The main reason why it took longer on the quoted time was instead of using the typical good condition OEM irons that we typically sell.... i had a set lapped and Re-Nitriding by Chip. For no cost. At all. I 100% covered the cost. The purchaser was informed on this. Main reason for this was they were spending a lot of money on this motor and i wanted to go above and beyond with the motor. Our parts are running low and i did not wanted to use a set that i would not put in my own personal motor!

So i agree that the build did take a little longer. And i was always willing to make it all right within reason... And i still am. And have told the OP, his wife, and the installer of the motor ( that we had all the communication at the beginning with).

I told Julie yesterday on the phone that if they had contacted me about other longblock parts i would have shipped them with no questions asked. I am not making anymore money leaving those parts out. We have plenty. But the original build plan did not include them so the assumption of them not being needed was wrong. ( as the invoice that was signed off on would have said COMPLETE longblock)

We have rebuilt over 100 motors for customers this year alone and would like to continue with it for as long as the community lets us. We did not set out to screw anyone out of any parts or not include anything so we could save on parts.

I am sorry for the confusion and we are still here for anyway to make it right!! Such as the plugs! I will be shipping to you 2 complete sets this week, and i do apologize about this.
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Old 12-10-16, 09:22 PM
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good to see your reply and i understand sometimes its hard to see things from both sides without both stories. i do know Nate and he seems genuine and a nice guy from all my experiences with him, it's hard to put a face to a transaction when it is done states away from one another. sometimes impatience is the main reason for people to begin to get upset, but sometimes things just take longer due to complications and miscommunications.

i hope you both get it worked out.
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Old 12-11-16, 09:40 PM
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It's always a lot more interesting once you get the other side of the story, and then most of the bandwagoners fall off and get quiet (rightfully so). Many or most of these times the buyer/customer misunderstood, or made assumptions, or heard things they wanted to hear but weren't told, or didn't hear things they actually were told, or just had an idea in their head that didn't get thoroughly communicated to the builder/shop so that it could be completed in the job. These cars are very technical and costly to work on so it's easy for that to happen. It's also easy for buyers to expect a lump sum all inclusive price for a job up front which is basically impossible to give because you really have no idea what you are working with or what the job needs before you are in the middle of it. Buyers seem to dislike being "nickel and dimed" by being charged for each part and material that goes into their build project, but who did they expect to pay for the parts going into their project to begin with? As long as the shop is willing to provide an itemized list of hours and parts/materials that goes into their build upon request, there should not be any claims of "shady business" just because the customer is unfamiliar with the prices of the parts going into their build.

The general rule of thumb should be that if a shop is still in business after more than a few years they are doing something right, and while not perfect, are most likely not out to screw anyone or do 'shady business practices". Yet we find that the forum lynch mobs still assemble at the slightest mention of possible wrongdoing by a shop.

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Old 12-12-16, 12:17 PM
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OK. Now I'm the one surprised at what he's reading. You say you don't want to upset me while passing blame on me and posting my wife's name on this club for the 1st time?? Lets itemize this:

First off the turbos
I never said anyone charged us $2500 for turbos. If you READ this thread you'll see that I said, in public right here, that you " are coming through" for me and are "making things right" on the turbos. The fact is at one point, someone promised us a set of 99spec turbos. It's not in writing, so whatever. There's a REASON you helped us get a deal on those BNRs though, correct? It's the same reason I started this thread in the 1st place.

2nd You say the reason for the delay and not including spark plugs or an oil pan was miscommunication since you were talking to the installer and not to me.
What communication was there to miss? We sent you $6562.08 on June 9th. Today is December 12th and I still don't have a running engine.

3rd. There is no invoice posted here. I feel like I'm being attacked though, so I'll black out any phone numbers and post it for everyone to see.

Next, you say that the build took so long because you nitrate treated before building.
You had that done AFTER we complained that it was taking so long, remember? You said you threw that in because it was taking so long and because you didn't have the promised 99spec turbos for us. We didn't ask for that. In fact, we never even discussed it. You just had it done and now seem to be holding it against me. If your parts are running low, use some of my $6562.08 to buy new parts. Don't make me feel like I owe because you were forced to use good parts on my car.

Next up, you say you would have included longblock parts if we would have asked for them.
What "longblock parts" are you referring to, and why is it the customers responsibility to ask for them by name? Again, my $6562.08 should include what you promised us in the 1st place. I just want an engine that starts.

You rebuilt 100 motors this year but mine took 6 months and still doesn't run. Lucky me.

You tell me you are "Sorry for the confusion", but you JUST HUNG UP ON MY WIFE WHEN WE TRIED TO CALL. Are you sick of dealing with us? Then make things right. I don't want sparkplugs. I already had to buy them, along with 600 dollars worth of gaskets and sensors. What I want is the truth to be known and to put this behind me. I'm not happy at all with this ordeal.
6 months after I paid the better part of 10 grand, I'm the *******.

Lynchmob indeed. Check out the other builder from Tennessee as he jumps on one now.
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Old 12-12-16, 12:17 PM
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Here is the receipt from the build. I meant to attach it earlier.

And also just got a phone call from the OP wife. And after being cussed out like a dog saying that I tried to make the customer look like an idiot and that i needed to take that post down....

I did not make that post to make anyone look bad. I said that it was our mistake and i agreed to try to do anything i can to help.

Unfortunately I do not have a lot of down time to sit on the phone and be cussed out for trying to help. So i was told on the phone "that i was going to get it". So im sure this is not over, but here again I am trying to make it right to civilized stand point/





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Old 12-12-16, 12:30 PM
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Well, I guess Tyler's phone number is going up on the internet whether he likes it or not.
I just want to drive my car. That post from the 10th was out of hand. If she cussed you out, it's because we are sick of dealing with this crap.

$6562.08 on June 9th. Here we are on December 12.
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Old 12-12-16, 01:34 PM
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June 2nd.
Originally Posted by Landry At Addicted
Hey Tyler
Here is the quote you requested for the longblock. The only thing I want to add is that we have a few sets of turbos here and I can send one with the engine at no extra cost but I cannot guarantee them as I cannot start the engine here. Those factory turbos are very prone to breaking down oil seals and smoking and I cannot guarantee a set unless we pay for them to be rebuilt. I tried to include everything I could to ensure this engine to be as strong and reliable as possible. Obviously though we cannot use everything new as the price of that would be astronomical and that is why we only warranty the shortblock. So if the alternator goes out in the first month or the ignition coil goes bad that would not be covered. We try to use parts we have here that are in the best condition to out knowledge but there is no guarantee on those....
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