the thing

I checked the signal from the pickups. I don't know what values I should find, but there IS a signal. I checked the signal from the beginning to the igniter connector. signal goes in, nothing goes out. Tomorrow I'll do some other checks, but I'm pretty sure the igniters are gone, even the trailing one... the other day was firing, then only few times (checking with the strobe), now it doesn't.
I don't want to deal with it anymore. So I'll find some ignition coils with igniters, and do a proper job. I want a transformer type coil with the igniter attached but usually are for hall's sensor type systems..

If you have any suggestion on what igniter/coil combo to buy, I will be happy to hear.

GSLSEforme

To have three igniters fail in such short time is unusual. Both pickups should generate a like waveform and voltage. I see what looks like a scope laying about where battery is,did you possibly freeze frame or store the screen on scope,maybe take pic of it and post here to take a look at? There are tests for igniters in fsm which can be downloaded here. I have found these tests sometimes inconclusive having bad igniters start and run a car and ones tested good not able to start a car. Age/heat are enemies of J109s. Another way to go about this is to be certain pickups are good by scoping,need to have 12 volts at all coils/modules with key on, ohm all coils to be certain all are in spec. If all these parts test good then by process of elimination would have to be igniters. The least expensive and fastest way to get car running would be to use GM HEI four pin igniters. These were used on every GM car from 1975-85 & later,are fairly inexpensive and should be able to get where you are. I have seen your DI setup,wiring for igniters would not need to be changed much,they could be mounted on same bracket you're now using. You could have car converted in about an hour.....unless as you say you're done with this arrangement. There are threads here with pics where several have converted to this type of system. Am currently in the middle of a DFIS conversion on my car with a 2nd gen ig.coil and a TFI coil using HEI modules. Have some pics if interested.

the thing

my ignition is already a dual fire converted, and the added third igniter is the equivalent of the GM 4 pin.
the portable oscilloscope is not good for doing one-shot tests, and the real oscilloscope is in the garage.
I can see the signal but it can't trigger properly and I can't hold because I've only two hands, and i'm turning the key (I need longer cables) the multimeter says about half a volt AC and 80% duty cycle. also says 7hz of frequency while cranking, on both pickups. But I don't know what values should read and how the multimeter sees the signal.
Here it's very frustrating to go to the parts store, because they know nothing, can't search anything and they don't want to bother with anything other than the usual stuff. No one in my area can even order rx7 spark plugs. Also in italy there are no junkyards anymore. you can't actually buy parts from them. only few stuff like body parts and entire engines.
The parts stores can't even find me the 4 pin igniters anymore. I tried everything and everyone. tomorrow I'll search for the 7 pin ones, and if I fail, I'll use ebay once again

GSLSEforme

Dario,i know you have DLDFIS installed,have looked thru your build thread. The multimeter is not the best test for voltage output test from pickups. The .5 volt you see on meter is an average of the cycle of signal generated,the meter can't show the signal switching in real time,it's not fast enough. If it averages .5 volt on meter,probably peaks at 1.0 volt or more depending on cranking speed. This SHOULD be enough to trigger the module to fire the coil. These pickups are very reliable and don't have a really high rate of failure. A problem further down line from pickup could be pulling signal down,are you checking pickup coil output at module? Try disconnecting pickup leads from module and test just the wires coming from pickups and see if signal is better/stronger. Have you checked for 12 volts being present at all coils/modules? How old are the coils,have you tested them for resistance? Interconnecting wiring ok? I know you're getting tired of trying to fix the no start and still seems strange to me that 3 modules would go bad so quickly unless something happened in the electrical system to damage them somehow... i found a good module on Ebay Delphi DS10071 $18.00 us-no idea what shipping to you is,it's free here. There are several cheaper modules for sale there but not too sure about quality. I'll keep looking in here,if i can be of any help,will do what i can on this end. I'm curious about the Fitech install,thinking about trying that setup on another vehicle i have.

GSLSEforme

Dario,had a thought.. have you used thermal paste on backside of igniters when mounting them? At some point this weekend will have wiring complete enough on my car to crank engine to get a waveform pic of signal generated by dist. pickups. Could post results here for you to compare with what you have from yours if you'd like.

the thing

yes I used thermal paste, and I checked signal at the 6 pin harness from the engine, I checked continuity from the harness to the pins on the igniters, and I checked signal there, and it was all good. I didn't re-checked the +12v everywhere, but I'm pretty sure there is. I'll try to bring the real oscilloscope to the car outside next time, so we can compare the signal (but I remember someone on the forum did it already, comparing also different igniters)
Thank you for your help by the way.

GSLSEforme

Glad to help,hoping you find a simple fix. Had intentions of working on car this weekend,but was just informed by"she who will be obeyed" that WE(she's looking over my shoulder as i type this,not amused) have plans for all day tomorrow. Hoping to get some time in on Sunday,will attempt to scope pickups.

the thing

hehe we are in the same boat.... this weekend my girlfriend is sick so I get to work on the car. I think I solved it, I don't know exactly what was the problem because I think they were more than one, but the most probable was poor grounding of the ignitors. tomorrow I'll post my conclusions with pictures.

GSLSEforme

Good on you!! Felt pretty sure there was a common cause of all the ignition problems,pays off to go back & fault trace the basics. Sketchy/inconsistent ground for all the modules would certainly cause your symptoms. Best part... no cost fix,other than your time. Will look in on this later tonight,tomorrow.

the thing

It's been a long weekend...
The car starts and runs now.. not very well but better than nothing.
I said it was a ground issue, in reality was a number of things, and I don't know how to explain them other than saying that my car is a victim of demonic possession.

-My multimeter was faulty and sometimes doesn't work when checking continuity
-My keyed 12v source wasn't consistent because of a crappy fuse connector
-My grounding of the igniters wasn't consistent because.. I don't know why.
-After some tests I concluded that the j-105 were missing some fires at idle
-The leading spark plug cables were faulty
-The ignition coils are not shielded enough around the output

I tested every combination of signal/igniter/coil/cable possible to exclude all possibilities, and at the end I managed to get to fire at least each igniter alone, but I couldn't do all at once.

In the meantime at the store I convinced them to let me look by myself on their shelves to find some old igniter that could work. I found some and I bought them for a low price. Now I could exclude the inconsistency of the igniters by using all new ones:


The last on the right is probably only for hall sensors but I'm not sure.
The second from right was the one I had already.

To do my troubleshooting I made a simple jig with a terminal board to switch and combine connections and see visually what I was doing: that gave me the idea of making an "ignition unit" box with all the connectors, cables and the igniters inside, so I made one:


on the bottom you can see a +12 and ground rails, since I had to group many cables and grounds, and on the top, the 3 igniters with heat sinks. the lid of the box will have a little computer fan to move the air inside. Aside from the color, I think it came out pretty clean, at least with the box closed!


Here you can see it mounted in the car.
At this point I was so sure that it would work that I was just focusing on routing all the cables and making it pretty, but when I tried to start it failed...

Again, checked all igniters one by one with same signal and same coil (trailing one) and two worked, one failed. when connected, the failing one was outputting 12v right through the two signal inputs (other ones had like 1.4V)
So I guessed I should try testing it without the DLDFIS for the moment, but the leading side continued to fail: after some time I concluded the spark cables were crap, or at least the connectors in the plug side, so I went to find the original cables, and with those it started.

I can't get around the timing, I'll have to check again with a fresh mind, because now the strobe doesn't make any sense (lead and trail are not inverted, I checked..)

Anyway, here's a video I made today


In the video you can see and hear the car in all its un-tuned glory, with massive holes in the power delivery, and making awful sounds. It was dark enough that you can notice the sparking on the two working coils, the original black coil you have to look really closely, but on the yellow one is clearly visible. After the video I tried to insulate the tip of the coil but with little success.

I don't know if I covered everything and maybe I made more spelling error than usual, but it's been a long weekend.. During next week I'll try to finish what I've started, and have the car actually drivable before next week.

GSLSEforme

You've been busy...Not surprised it was more than one thing causing no start. Nice of the people at the store to let you look thru their stock. That is a Hall sensor ignition module,recognize it.. used on some BMW cars & motorcycles. Neat idea making the box to house all ignition components,wonder if fan will keep everything cool enough. Watched Your video,definitely some ignition issues. The ignition coils appear to have carbon tracks down high tension tower to the primary terminal,not so much insulation/shielding problem. You'll need to replace them,even with a new set of ignition wires(which you should replace,even if they weren't defective you should upgrade the quality of the wireset to deliver the more potent spark the modules provide) voltage will bleed down that carbon track. Look to be original coils. Firing voltage at plugs must be high,are they gas fouled from extended cranking to attempt starting,i would pull and inspect them,may be sooted/carboned up from being a little rich experimenting with fuel percentages and needing a lot of KV to fire them. Electricity will always find the easiest path to ground,that's likely what caused the coils to be arcing. It's a testament to how strong a spark those modules drive those coils,would guess 50% or better of the coil output is being bled off by the arcing. Most cars wouldn't even start with that situation. Engine does seem to be a little rich,might mostly be be ignition/plugs. What plugs do you have in the engine? You explained things pretty well except for one thing where you said "I can't get around the timing". Don't know what you mean by that. Post back with how you're coming alongr. I have a few suggestions for you to look into to help clear up the way it's running if the things i wrote above don't fully resolve how it starts/runs.

the thing

Well.. after the experiments I made today I can draw these conclusions:

-I'm a dumbass
-I should check things twice
-I had the trailing and leading switched

I don't know how can it be, but apparently they were switched: yesterday I checked by switching the two cables from the coils to the distributor, and with the position inverted the car wouldn't even start.. So I concluded that it wasn't that. Then today I decided to check everything again from the pickups to the spark plug, to see if I missed something, and the signal cables were inverted on the igniters.
..but switching the coil HV leads should give the same result.. so maybe yesterday I did something wrong or some cable was loose.. I don't know.. nevermind.

On the plus side, the car now actually FLIES! I's been a lot from the last time I drove the car in proper condition, but as far as I can remember it had never went this fast. Even the sound is different, very linear, full, and the response is quick (with the Holley I had issues on the numerous roundabouts that we have here, because of the position of the bowls).
The sound of the fuel pump is not very convincing.. it seems to pump air from time to time (yes I've filled the tank), I have to check on that.
Yesterday I overheated a bit because of some air in the radiator and the water boiled, so today with the engine actually running I was bleeding the air, but the temperature was always between 190 and 200°F, while the dashboard gauge was very low, So I guess I probably have to calibrate the sensor using another thermometer.
Also I will have to take the tank down again because the fuel gauge is dead: Maybe I can access to the connector, but I doubt it. I manage to reach it with the hand to check if it was connected, and it was; maybe I killed the meter when I was working on the tank..


Now I will route and wrap the cables, mount everything in the final position and drive the car around to tune the EFI.
For those interested on doing the Fitech EFI conversion, as far as I saw until now, is a good buy, and, if the rest of the car is in good conditions, it SHOULD be easy to do by everyone: the bigger obstacle is of course the tank, but who knows, maybe the pump works also with the original hose..

Now my question is: all the bosch igniters are capable of outputting 8/10A to the coil ( http://www.pim-engineering.com/tiedo...ionmodules.pdf ) I don't know about the original igniters, but shouldn't I be able to connect TWO coils to ONE igniter, and by doing so, running the dldfis with only 2 igniters? Of course I'll try and write here the results.

j_tso

iTrader: (2)

Congratulations. It sounds good now, I can't wait to see a day time video after it's tuned.

Kameron13

iTrader: (1)

Congratulations, it does sound great. Thanks for helping pave the way for the rest of us considering an EFI setup.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

Congrats! Looking forward to you "perfecting" your setup and reporting on your enjoyment of it!

Toruki

I am really enjoying your thread! And I have a question on your ignition...

In this photo the coils are going through the distributor cap? But you have three coils total,how does that work? I thought the direct fire skipped the distributor cap for the leading and wired the coil directly to the plugs. And that trailing can still go through the cap. Did you just revert during troubleshooting to try it out?

I am just curious.

Have fun, it sounds really nice.

GSLSEforme

Sounds a lot better,what did you do to resolve the arcing coil towers?

the thing

yes I reverted to normal ignition because I had only two functioning igniter in the box, but one of these days I will try to drive two coils with one igniter and get the DLDFIS (or I'll buy another one!)

about the arcing coils, I didn't check again in the dark (they were not visible in daylight, the video with the visible arcs was made with a very bright lens and sensor, and barely visible by naked eye, and also they were visible only at low rpm, below 1500 or so).

Sometimes I feel a bit clumsy because I forget to check things, and frustrated because I have to always find a workaround for what I want to do, but it's probably only because I'm trying to finish the job 1 hour per day, always in a hurry before the sun sets.

Now that the car runs I can go back and forth from the parking lot to my garage easily, and also daylight is getting longer, so I should manage to work more relaxed for now on.

Toruki

Just wait until you have kids .

the thing

Haha

However, I've tried the DLDFIS with two igniters and it works. I will try it again later, after the EFI tuning. Maybe the igniter would get too hot in that case so I have to monitor the temperatures. About the fuel level meter, I've got it to work again
If you have questions I'll try to answer, otherwise the next update will be after the tuning

rayadas

can't wait to here the final thoughts after tuning. I'm really hoping all goes well as I plan to run the fitech and turbo my 12a. I would have used the stock Nikki, but I had gone with the weber 45 dcoe and have read that while it can be done, it is hard to get the tuning just right with a turbo.

the thing

It's being more complicated than I thought: yesterday I drove it around and everything was OK. today I was adjusting the timing and the engine turned off by itself at idle, after few minutes that was on without problems. Now the car won't start at all (BTW to be sure I put the timing back where it was, and no changes).
The fault code from the EFI says "rpm noise", which is 99% the arcing from the coil, but it was running good just moments prior... I don't know how to check if the injectors are spraying or not: from the screen I can see the duty cycle but I dunno if it's independent from the actual injector output.

Yesterday I also found on ebay something that I was searching for a lot of time: the CAS and the two coils from an FC, so I also will do that conversion in the near future. Maybe I should wait for those, and skip the troubleshooting with this damned ignition...

GSLSEforme

Dario, just looked in to see what progress you've made... if you've not purchased the CAS and coils,would hold off. In an FC the Cas provides essentially the same function as the Leading &Trailing pickups,the differences 1) the generated signals are fed to ECM to determine ignition advance values(along with other sensors in system). Since your engine employs both mechanical and vacuum advance in the distributor,changing to a CAS you will lose both of those important power/driveability/fuel economy functions. No real workaround here. 2) the trailing coil is actually two separate coils in one and the ECM calculates which side of the coil to fire at the appropriate time in combustion cycle. While leading ignition is essentially a waste spark design where both plugs are fired simultaneously,one is fired into the exhaust phase of combustion where it does very little but clean up any leftover hydrocarbons. Were the trailing to be fired in the same manner,there would be a preignition event that would be engine damaging. Concerning the leading coil/igniter,it can't be driven directly with the waveform output from your distributor pickup coils as the igniter will not recognize it. There are threads on here(2GDFIS with transistor trick) where several members here collaborated and tested and made available build your own kits to convert one signal to another enabling 2nd gen igniter/coil to be used with some impressive power gains. Suggest looking at this thread,long read,but very informative. There were problems with longevity and some weird timing quirks,a couple different versions were designed and built,some with manual switch in circuit and some with an internal "switch". Premature ignition coil failure seemed to be the undoing of this device from overdriving/overheating the ignition coil. Hopefully you read this info before making your purchase,maybe with the exception of the leading coil. I'm doing a DFIS conversion using a 2nd gen coil on my car presently and a TFI ignition coil to fire the trailing coil & plugs. Also 2nd gen fusebox upgrade to go with FD alternator upgrade. Soon to be up and running,test drive will have to wait as our weather here is horrible with ice/snow/cold.

GSLSEforme

The DLDFIS system you have on your car presently is the best practical system for a 1st gen. You have some gremlins to work thru,coil(s), ignition wires to replace. Sort out your ignition power &ground circuits so they're rock solid &reliable and am certain the car will run properly. One more suggestion to think about(or not if not interested). Consider while shoring up all your primary &secondary connections,adding a relay to run the modules/coils from battery. Your car is 30+ yrs old,has some extra resistance in wiring due to age and the ignition feed wiring originally was "sufficient" to power the oe setup,but you are now asking the same 30+yr old circuit to supply more current than it did originally. This particular upgrade has been known to cure idle quality concerns and stutters throughout rpm range. Common four pin Bosch/Hella relay will reduce the load on the switch(as far as ignition current supply) to what it takes to operate relay,which is next to nothing & provide ignition system with battery voltage which will be at least one volt higher maybe more than what's being fed from ignition switch. Noticed the Cibie headlamps in your car in one of pics you posted in your thread. I run the same lamps in mine,while all European E code lamps have a better light pattern than domestic sealed beams here in the states , i feel the Cibie lamp has the best uniform light pattern of all. Point of all this is to note putting the headlamps on relays takes further load off your oe wiring and headlight switch. One last thing,watching video of your running engine,when you revved it up i noticed a whine that changed pitch with rpm. Could be a bearing noise in alternator or water pump-or the same noise is made by an alternator frequently when it has a leaking/blown diode. This might explain some of the weird things going on with the way it runs. For the most part the oe electronics in car are pretty hardy,but the new FI system in place may be more finicky about AC voltage getting fed to it. I know you have a couple of scopes,why not hook one up to the car and test to see if you have any AC ripple at the battery. Turn everything on in the car electrically to load the alternator,unless you have access to a carbon pile load tester to do the same. A properly rectified DC voltage signal will look like successive upside down "u" letters. AC voltage ripple will be like the above with some spikes on both sides of the sine wave depending on how much leakage is present. It is this leakage that can cause "hiccups" in some systems.

the thing

first of all thank you for all the suggestions: yes I know how the FC ignition works. My idea was to use it with an ECU controlling the ignition. I dunno which one. I've read many of the various ignition conversion made for the 1st gen, and I have a couple of ideas.
About the "gremlins", yes exactly, right now this car needs an exorcism, and THEN I will do the tuning. today I managed to get it to run, but not for long, after 10 minutes or so it died in the middle of the road, luckily near a parking lot. now the car will sit there until monday. I tried to restart the car, in the beginning I wasn't getting spark to the plugs, only to the distributor, I checked the plugs, they were soaked. I cleaned them, and the car won't start. same thing again... will see next week.
About the relays, yes that is a mod I wanted to do for a long time, but I am searching for a nice relay holder for them, and also searching for the time to actually do the work...
BTW I'm omitting to write a lot of checks and little things about the issues I'm having, but it's only because I don't have time to write an essay everyday. also English is not my first language and requires a lot of concentration to write.
Anyway thank you again for your assistance and support.