my fourth FD (and hopefully my last)
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,387
Likes: 4
From: Nashville, TN
Why such a rush to put the motor back together?
Make sure you measure the width of the wear on the metal oil control rings against the maximum spec.
I see a common street port problem- the only correct port template I have seen is Judge Ito's.
See how the tips of the side seals that cross the top of the port horizontally are damaged/worn as circled in red? How well does that seal?
If you make a template by using plexiglass over the rotor/sidehousing/rotorhousing/e-shaft and a bent sideseal spring in the side seal groove to etch the path of the side seals onto the plexiglass as you turn the e-shaft you will see the problem.
The sideseal that comes up horizontal to the port closing line drops into the port unsupported and then hits the port side at the tip of the sideseal.
If you keep the tip of the sideseal from hitting the port side at closing (as shown in purple, but ported using your plexiglass template showing the sideseal's path) it will stop this damage and you will have a longer lasting, better sealing motor.
Needless to say, it is a very sloppy build in general and with a little time you could correct more.
Make sure you measure the width of the wear on the metal oil control rings against the maximum spec.
I see a common street port problem- the only correct port template I have seen is Judge Ito's.
See how the tips of the side seals that cross the top of the port horizontally are damaged/worn as circled in red? How well does that seal?
If you make a template by using plexiglass over the rotor/sidehousing/rotorhousing/e-shaft and a bent sideseal spring in the side seal groove to etch the path of the side seals onto the plexiglass as you turn the e-shaft you will see the problem.
The sideseal that comes up horizontal to the port closing line drops into the port unsupported and then hits the port side at the tip of the sideseal.
If you keep the tip of the sideseal from hitting the port side at closing (as shown in purple, but ported using your plexiglass template showing the sideseal's path) it will stop this damage and you will have a longer lasting, better sealing motor.
Needless to say, it is a very sloppy build in general and with a little time you could correct more.
TII, i have templates from Kahren (which are copies of ITOs streetport) on overhead projector sheets with which i used to port rotaries several years ago. i fully understand what you're saying.
i was not happy to find upon disassembly that the center iron of this engine was ported, especially ported sloppily, which seems to have affected the tips of the side seals. i am replacing this center iron with a 100% STOCK one that hasnt been touched, and replacing the side seals.
Last edited by jacobcartmill; Mar 14, 2015 at 11:12 AM.
Damn dude, this keeps getting worse unfortunately. I'm glad you have the skills/knowledge to remedy it yourself to save expense. I wish you best of luck.
I understand your thought of buying a less modded FD for reliability etc..I too had those thoughts, but now I am just going to buy a 2nd one. lol my wife has always wanted a CW one. ;-)
I understand your thought of buying a less modded FD for reliability etc..I too had those thoughts, but now I am just going to buy a 2nd one. lol my wife has always wanted a CW one. ;-)
i am replacing this center iron with a 100% STOCK one that hasnt been touched, and replacing the side seals.
I think that is a solid plan.
Sorry, I misunderstood and thought you were going to put in some oil control ring o-rings and put it back together (which I didn't think was the problem).
I am more careful cleaning the carbon off the oil control o-rings now so they don't get stretched, but just so its easier to assemble the engine. I never had a problem with the stretched "squiggly in the groove" o-rings sealing.
I do imagine it is possible to stretch them so far in one spot their diameter is insufficient to seal at that spot; luckily, never experienced it as they got gently stretched their length in my case.
I think that is a solid plan.
Sorry, I misunderstood and thought you were going to put in some oil control ring o-rings and put it back together (which I didn't think was the problem).
I am more careful cleaning the carbon off the oil control o-rings now so they don't get stretched, but just so its easier to assemble the engine. I never had a problem with the stretched "squiggly in the groove" o-rings sealing.
I do imagine it is possible to stretch them so far in one spot their diameter is insufficient to seal at that spot; luckily, never experienced it as they got gently stretched their length in my case.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,387
Likes: 4
From: Nashville, TN
another update, work today:
soda blasted the manifolds and TB, and got them looking very nice and non-spraypainted black:
soda blasted the manifolds and TB, and got them looking very nice and non-spraypainted black:
Last edited by jacobcartmill; Mar 15, 2015 at 10:11 PM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,387
Likes: 4
From: Nashville, TN
more pics of the barely useable (questionable) parts in this engine:
the rotor that was burning oil seems to have rubbed its rotor gear on an iron in a previous life:
apex slots dented, but apexes weren't grabbing/stuck or anything, i just don't like this:
oil rings from the front rotor (cant remember if these were gear side or middle side) with lots more wear than the other metal rings:
chipped teeth on the rear rotor's rotor gear. this did not damage the stationary gear, but i really don't like it.
housings look pretty good:
the crush washer used on the oil pressure regulator:
i've now purchased two rotors, a middle iron, 6 side seals, an atkins o-ring kit, an oil pan, mazda oil control o-rings, and several gaskets, and i'm out about $1000 thus far. i am surprised and disappointed that this engine was assembled with parts that most would describe as beat up.
the housings are good though.
the rotor that was burning oil seems to have rubbed its rotor gear on an iron in a previous life:
apex slots dented, but apexes weren't grabbing/stuck or anything, i just don't like this:
oil rings from the front rotor (cant remember if these were gear side or middle side) with lots more wear than the other metal rings:
chipped teeth on the rear rotor's rotor gear. this did not damage the stationary gear, but i really don't like it.
housings look pretty good:
the crush washer used on the oil pressure regulator:
i've now purchased two rotors, a middle iron, 6 side seals, an atkins o-ring kit, an oil pan, mazda oil control o-rings, and several gaskets, and i'm out about $1000 thus far. i am surprised and disappointed that this engine was assembled with parts that most would describe as beat up.
the housings are good though.
Last edited by jacobcartmill; Mar 15, 2015 at 10:33 PM.
So is the shop you bought it from helping out? If not, hopefully you can share any customer service commentary before others purchase.
Each ship has good and bad stories, but I have seen some shops protect customers and remedy (or partially remedy) the situation to stand out from the rest and grow a good reputation of putting customers first.
Each ship has good and bad stories, but I have seen some shops protect customers and remedy (or partially remedy) the situation to stand out from the rest and grow a good reputation of putting customers first.
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 846
Likes: 14
From: hsv al
That sucks about the motor, but I can't say that I am surprised. A local guy bought an fd from addicted and ended up rebuilding the motor not long after. The stories are very similiar with out of spec and questionable parts being reused.
However; I am sure they will build a fine motor for a customer willing to pay for a quality rebuild.
Go ahead and do semi PP and a 80mm turbo... ya know, just while you already have everything out.
However; I am sure they will build a fine motor for a customer willing to pay for a quality rebuild.
Go ahead and do semi PP and a 80mm turbo... ya know, just while you already have everything out.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,387
Likes: 4
From: Nashville, TN
That sucks about the motor, but I can't say that I am surprised. A local guy bought an fd from addicted and ended up rebuilding the motor not long after. The stories are very similiar with out of spec and questionable parts being reused.
However; I am sure they will build a fine motor for a customer willing to pay for a quality rebuild.
Go ahead and do semi PP and a 80mm turbo... ya know, just while you already have everything out.
However; I am sure they will build a fine motor for a customer willing to pay for a quality rebuild.
Go ahead and do semi PP and a 80mm turbo... ya know, just while you already have everything out.
I talked to APU and Zach is going to send me a middle iron, 2 rotors, and a soft seal kit to help out.
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee!
I honestly just read this build thread to see if anything good ever comes from the car they built. I live 30 minutes from apu and considered buying an rx7 from them but this poor quality really makes them look shady.Maybe the car was meant to fall into your hands so you can fix it properly I know I would have gave up awhile back.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,387
Likes: 4
From: Nashville, TN
guys i'm not trying to make the engine thing a bash against anyone. i tore down the engine and took pics, contacted the shop, and they said they are going to help me out in good faith.
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 846
Likes: 14
From: hsv al
But in reality it could just be 2/200 or 1% of the motors they built that have met an early tear down.
Monsterbox with the 20B just spoke really high of them, and if Ray Wilson wasn't doing a tuning session in Huntsville the 27th-29th i would be taking my car to them for the tune.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,387
Likes: 4
From: Nashville, TN
we know, we know. I am not trying to fling poo either. They have put alot of FDs back on the road. They are just 0/2 for motors that have would up in those cars, and those 2 cars happen to be in a 100 mile radius from me.
But in reality it could just be 2/200 or 1% of the motors they built that have met an early tear down.
Monsterbox with the 20B just spoke really high of them, and if Ray Wilson wasn't doing a tuning session in Huntsville the 27th-29th i would be taking my car to them for the tune.
But in reality it could just be 2/200 or 1% of the motors they built that have met an early tear down.
Monsterbox with the 20B just spoke really high of them, and if Ray Wilson wasn't doing a tuning session in Huntsville the 27th-29th i would be taking my car to them for the tune.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,387
Likes: 4
From: Nashville, TN
i drove the car about 45 miles tonight and it is running very well. i bought 13 new side seals and side seal springs and clearanced all the side seals to ~.0025, and reused the rotary aviation classic apex seals and mazda springs that had about 10k miles on them.
i also started it hot a few times after about a 10 minute heatsoak (with the oil at ~210*F) and it did not smoke
and started right up.
the banzai racing oil pan brace is awesome.
the banzai racing 2kW starter is also awesome.
i'll post a big update later this weekend.
i also started it hot a few times after about a 10 minute heatsoak (with the oil at ~210*F) and it did not smoke
and started right up.the banzai racing oil pan brace is awesome.
the banzai racing 2kW starter is also awesome.
i'll post a big update later this weekend.
Last edited by jacobcartmill; Mar 27, 2015 at 11:06 PM.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 30,818
Likes: 656
From: FL-->NJ/NYC again!
I go as low as one and a half thousandths on my side seal clearances, makes for a nice tight engine. Mazda spec is actually pretty lenient on this clearance, but it's always best to go on the tight side here 
cartmill just for the record; my templates are not ito copies, they do look similar in the pics, you could say that they are ito inspired , but i haven't actually even had ito templates to compare to.
, but i haven't actually even had ito templates to compare to.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,387
Likes: 4
From: Nashville, TN
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,387
Likes: 4
From: Nashville, TN
update:
zach at Addict Performance Unlimited (APU) reimbursed me for the engine parts, which helped out a ton.
i put about 750 miles on the car, then changed the oil and spark plugs.
so then about a week later i finally boosted the car. my haltech stopped communicating via USB, so i'm having to send it in to haltechUSA to get repaired... i'm borrowing a friend's haltech ps1k box now, so i finally got to get out and do some street tuning.
short post version: wastegate didn't creep, clutch didn't slip, exhaust didn't smoke, didn't have any noticeable blowby, and still have 6 apex seals; 10psi is hammering very well.
the open wastegate makes me want a bullet in the brain whenever the chainsaw fires up, but that's ok. stock intercooler is not OK. IATs go from 90 to 150 in 3rd gear alone (~80*F ambient temp), so that's the last thing to replace.
i'll post a datalog tonight.
all is well!!!
zach at Addict Performance Unlimited (APU) reimbursed me for the engine parts, which helped out a ton.
i put about 750 miles on the car, then changed the oil and spark plugs.
so then about a week later i finally boosted the car. my haltech stopped communicating via USB, so i'm having to send it in to haltechUSA to get repaired... i'm borrowing a friend's haltech ps1k box now, so i finally got to get out and do some street tuning.
short post version: wastegate didn't creep, clutch didn't slip, exhaust didn't smoke, didn't have any noticeable blowby, and still have 6 apex seals; 10psi is hammering very well.
the open wastegate makes me want a bullet in the brain whenever the chainsaw fires up, but that's ok. stock intercooler is not OK. IATs go from 90 to 150 in 3rd gear alone (~80*F ambient temp), so that's the last thing to replace.
i'll post a datalog tonight.
all is well!!!
zach at Addict Performance Unlimited (APU) reimbursed me for the engine parts, which helped out a ton.
Glad they helped with a positive outcome of a bummer situation.
We all mess up; stand up guys try to fix messes. After enough fixing we will eventually realize its easier to try really really hard to get it right the first time than all the fixing.
short post version: wastegate didn't creep, clutch didn't slip, exhaust didn't smoke, didn't have any noticeable blowby, and still have 6 apex seals; 10psi is hammering very well.
the open wastegate makes me want a bullet in the brain whenever the chainsaw fires up, but that's ok.
Even better news. Open WG gets quieter over time, I swear. 
I actually got deaf to my old set up 6-8,000rpm, changed set up and now its a different frequency I have to get deaf to all over again.
Change is tough when you get old...
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,387
Likes: 4
From: Nashville, TN
zach at Addict Performance Unlimited (APU) reimbursed me for the engine parts, which helped out a ton.
Glad they helped with a positive outcome of a bummer situation.
We all mess up; stand up guys try to fix messes. After enough fixing we will eventually realize its easier to try really really hard to get it right the first time than all the fixing.
short post version: wastegate didn't creep, clutch didn't slip, exhaust didn't smoke, didn't have any noticeable blowby, and still have 6 apex seals; 10psi is hammering very well.
the open wastegate makes me want a bullet in the brain whenever the chainsaw fires up, but that's ok.
Even better news. Open WG gets quieter over time, I swear. I actually got deaf to my old set up 6-8,000rpm, changed set up and now its a different frequency I have to get deaf to all over again.
Change is tough when you get old...
yeah the open wastegate chainsaw noise was cool when i was in my 20s. now i want to hear ONLY the compressor wheel sing. i don't even want to hear the exhaust, at all.
i am very impressed with this $620 turbo.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,387
Likes: 4
From: Nashville, TN
well i am running off of the wastegate alone, but i can get ~9-10psi by about 3500rpms in 4th. it has about the same response as the Precision 6262 .84 i had a while back.