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Just got back from Miami for a vacation over holiday's. Something pretty coincidental; We were driving through an art district called Wynwood, and I took a picture of this badass graffiti gangster wall. Post it up on facebook as public, and someone fires back less than 5 mins later with this kickass FD. Super small world.
Just got back from Miami for a vacation over holiday's. Something pretty coincidental; We were driving through an art district called Wynwood, and I took a picture of this badass graffiti gangster wall. Post it up on facebook as public, and someone fires back less than 5 mins later with this kickass FD. Super small world.
Thanks to you I have Chase (not sure the spelling of his name) is down in south Florida cleaning up my cars
I was there on Sunday at a car event. We were parked right next to that shop. It is a small world.Thanks to you I have Chase (not sure the spelling of his name) is down in south Florida cleaning up my cars
The engine tone changes considerably upon load. When it 3% throttle it sound like a lobbing low pitch but when it goes into throttle and loads up, like traveling up hill, the sound smooths out and begins to whine as you'd expect. I believe when the wastegates pop open the car is loaded down, it will scream like the 787 over 5k rpms etc. But on free rev the tone is so different.
3 rotor seems to do the same thing. Totally different free rev sound then on throttle.
So i wonder why the N/A cars have the scream at idle / free rev but the turbo cars do not.
I have noticed this on the Curran Brothers 26b's. They sound just like this car, then when he hits boost or is on the trans-brake, it screams like the N/A cars.
But then some of the mad mike 4 rotor's don't sound the same as the 787b even in N/A form.
The firing order is confirmed the same so it must be a combo of things.
great thread, guy. i just came across this post and thought i could contribute.
i've noticed two distinct sounds with the 4 rotor engines so far.
mad mike's FD was NA and had an exhaust header that was collected and all 4 exhaust pulses came out evenly, and i think this raises the pitch of the exhaust and gives it that high pitched 90s Formula 1 sound.
mad mike's radbull miata has two turbos, which splits the exhaust effectively into two 2-rotor exhaust systems, and they collect a little farther down, so it sounds a little lower pitched like a 2 rotor engine. (i'm not sure what his wastegate setup looks like)
depending on the location of your two wastegates (i will have to look back at the pictures) the overall exhaust sound with the gates both open would sound (again) like two 2-rotor engines, but i guess the remaining exhaust that doesnt flow out of the gates would have the high pitched sound (all 4 pulses coming out of one pipe).
you have a single big turbo, which collects the exhaust ASAP in the system, but i think the splitting of the pulses through the wastegates will drop the pitch, but again, wastegates being closed should cause the higher pitched exhaust note, like at low or medium load.
i've had a few different exhaust setups on v8 and v6 engine over the years as well (and friends have as well), and every time you split the exhaust (and the farther down the tract it collects), the lower the overall pitch of the exhaust gets.
of course the firing order matters with the exhaust note, but i don't know which cars are running which firing order
David, where's your southern accent? You must be a transplanted Yankee. Have they let you in the Southern club yet?
The fuel rail heat shield doesn't fit with the aesthetics of that beautiful engine. You might want to rethink that. Constructive criticism only.
All my switches are override also. Pumps and Fans. A2W!
I like the Fuel Lab Variable Speed Pump.
Love the Blues, looking forward to the tuning video.
thanks dude! you guessed it, I'm from VA Beach so
Yea its not the prettiest, but it does work great. The fuel rail dropped from 215F average to 120F average idling.
Still trying to think of something that may look prettier yet have the same degree of function. This shield actually runs all the way down and protects the intake runners, yet also boxes off the downpipe
great thread, guy. i just came across this post and thought i could contribute.
i've noticed two distinct sounds with the 4 rotor engines so far.
mad mike's FD was NA and had an exhaust header that was collected and all 4 exhaust pulses came out evenly, and i think this raises the pitch of the exhaust and gives it that high pitched 90s Formula 1 sound.
mad mike's radbull miata has two turbos, which splits the exhaust effectively into two 2-rotor exhaust systems, and they collect a little farther down, so it sounds a little lower pitched like a 2 rotor engine. (i'm not sure what his wastegate setup looks like)
depending on the location of your two wastegates (i will have to look back at the pictures) the overall exhaust sound with the gates both open would sound (again) like two 2-rotor engines, but i guess the remaining exhaust that doesnt flow out of the gates would have the high pitched sound (all 4 pulses coming out of one pipe).
you have a single big turbo, which collects the exhaust ASAP in the system, but i think the splitting of the pulses through the wastegates will drop the pitch, but again, wastegates being closed should cause the higher pitched exhaust note, like at low or medium load.
i've had a few different exhaust setups on v8 and v6 engine over the years as well (and friends have as well), and every time you split the exhaust (and the farther down the tract it collects), the lower the overall pitch of the exhaust gets.
of course the firing order matters with the exhaust note, but i don't know which cars are running which firing order
does any of that make sense?
sure does make a ton of sense!
Good points you've made and they all are sensible. For example if you hear the CBR 4 rotor when it was single turbo, the drag car running 6.89 seconds, it sounds alot different then its current state with 4 turbos (though its still one of my favorite cars)
Regarding wastegate placement on this car:
The wastgates are on the collector, one on rear of collector and one off the front of collector. So I would think when we hear them open on saturday, the exhaust tone should be combined just as it is out of the downpipe. Same as the last 3 rotor setup, although the 3 rotor only had one wastegate off front of the collector.
However, I have noticed the white lexus turbo 4 rotor, his wastegate comes off of the turbine housing, very high pitched exhaust sound. I wonder if there's a difference between turbine housing and collector exits.
And yes, I have noticed those particular manifolds for 13b that have the a wastegates on each runner near the exhaust ports, they sound alot different under throttle then say the old 13b single turbo I used to run on a cast manifold w/ a singular wategate off the collector
However, the tone I'm speaking of noticing now is with wastegates closed. So all of the exhaust is collected and running through downpipe, yet this engine just sounds uniquely different to other 4 rotors. Thought still very similar. It may just be that it sounds so different in person vs youtube etc. Sound is huge for me and I notice everything. I distinctively remember the tone of the 3 rotor being shockingly different in person than on videos. But, the main thing I notice, when revved over 4k RPM it doesn't seem to carry the high pitched overtone that you hear on the N/A engines. Though it seems turbo 3 rotor doesn't carry that pitch either vs the N/A. So my explanation would be that the turbine and housing itself actually muffles the overtone series, much like a resonator. When the wastegates open I think we should hear it
And finally,
I specifically inquired about the firing order to all companies making 4 rotors. There was a myth going around by some rx7 guys that the scoot engines vs ppre engines vs mazda engines may have different firing orders. They are actually all the same. 1-3-2-4 and 90* phasing.
Last edited by Monsterbox; Dec 8, 2016 at 05:23 AM.
I was there on Sunday at a car event. We were parked right next to that shop. It is a small world.Thanks to you I have Chase (not sure the spelling of his name) is down in south Florida cleaning up my cars
NO WAY. WAY TO SMALL.
Are you serious!?
Man Chase is awesome. Are you the guy with the REPU?
Man Chase is awesome. Are you the guy with the REPU?
Hit me up on facebook!
yeah i'm the guy with the REPU. Chas just finished it now working on my R100. He does awesome work. thanks for posting about his services....would have never found him if it wasnt for this thread.
However, the tone I'm speaking of noticing now is with wastegates closed. So all of the exhaust is collected and running through downpipe, yet this engine just sounds uniquely different to other 4 rotors. Thought still very similar. It may just be that it sounds so different in person vs youtube etc. Sound is huge for me and I notice everything. I distinctively remember the tone of the 3 rotor being shockingly different in person than on videos. But, the main thing I notice, when revved over 4k RPM it doesn't seem to carry the high pitched overtone that you hear on the N/A engines. Though it seems turbo 3 rotor doesn't carry that pitch either vs the N/A. So my explanation would be that the turbine and housing itself actually muffles the overtone series, much like a resonator. When the wastegates open I think we should hear it
And finally,
I specifically inquired about the firing order to all companies making 4 rotors. There was a myth going around by some rx7 guys that the scoot engines vs ppre engines vs mazda engines may have different firing orders. They are actually all the same. 1-3-2-4 and 90* phasing.
i was just thinking that the 787B and 767 have an "even higher" pitched sound compared to the others. i wonder if this is because is intake and exhaust resonance tuning (like ferraris and other exotics do) to raise the overall engine sound pitch.
of course the 787 and 767 are race cars, but maybe the variable length intake runners play a part in that? mystery.
but yes, i think your wastegates on the collector will keep the sound very "4 rotor-y" i will be watching for a dyno update video!
about the firing order, i recall logan posting some interesting info about the firing order of the different 4 rotor engines in his huge build thread, but i don't recall the specifics. he did post that his was the same firing order as the 787B though. i remember that much.
However, the tone I'm speaking of noticing now is with wastegates closed. So all of the exhaust is collected and running through downpipe, yet this engine just sounds uniquely different to other 4 rotors. Thought still very similar. It may just be that it sounds so different in person vs youtube etc. Sound is huge for me and I notice everything. I distinctively remember the tone of the 3 rotor being shockingly different in person than on videos. But, the main thing I notice, when revved over 4k RPM it doesn't seem to carry the high pitched overtone that you hear on the N/A engines. Though it seems turbo 3 rotor doesn't carry that pitch either vs the N/A. So my explanation would be that the turbine and housing itself actually muffles the overtone series, much like a resonator. When the wastegates open I think we should hear it
And finally,
I specifically inquired about the firing order to all companies making 4 rotors. There was a myth going around by some rx7 guys that the scoot engines vs ppre engines vs mazda engines may have different firing orders. They are actually all the same. 1-3-2-4 and 90* phasing.
i obviously don't know the answer to the tone question, but when they fire the factory 4 rotors up, at ~2000rpm fast idle, they do sound rumbly like a v8, in person anyways.
point 2, my PP is NA, and running it with or without an airbox makes a huge difference, mostly in volume. it might have something to do with it.
The tune weekend went well. Nelson Siverio is the best tuner I've ever met. Super meticulous, and eases into the car, watching every system and logging. #1 priority emphasized on safety.
We didn't hit the dyno until 7pm and only had a few hours. However, he set up the cold start enrichment, throttle tip-in, EGT sensors, fail safes, optimized the timing map. Did a TON of work on the hard stuff, leaving us with only the WOT stuff to tune, which contrary to what many might think, is the easy part.
Unfortunately had to call it off at 5,000rpm because even with both 50mm wategates wide open, using external air compressor on the bottom ports, the car would still creep over 13psi!!! I consider this a good problem! lol
The engine is absolutely mental. With wastegates wide open, the car snaps to 10psi by 3300rpm. This is with wastegates WIDE OPEN before the run and with an idle of 2k rpm. So the response is ridiculous. Think of it like a 40mm turbo on a peripheral port 13b. Its just insane how fast the boost hits. Exactly what the intention was for this engine setup, and even more responsive than I imaged. I can't believe this thing comes on line that quickly. Compared to the 3 rotor with the same turbo and smaller hotside, its like an entire different ball game. Makes this turbo seem like the stock twins.
So rather than take chances and continue on with racegas at 15+ psi (which I wish we could do) etc, I'd rather pull her down and get a 50mm wastegate welded onto the the turbine housing and start at 5psi No reason in the world to rush it.
Plan is to weld a 50mm turbosmart to the turbine, and route the dump tube out of the hood for a fire cannon. This would effectively decrease back pressure and help for more top end power, while also directly assisting in controlling boost. Surely after a 3rd waste gate we should be good to go.
To give an idea of how much power it was probably making (although we didn't log the run), the fuel pump at low speed is putting out over 100GPH. When the car hit 15psi at 5k rpm and the seconaries kicked on, the fuel pressure dropped 5psi meaning we maxed out the pump flow for the speed setting. Its a monstrosity. Can't wait to finish it up and pull it to red-line.
The only really unfortunate issue is for unknown reasons, the shaft seal on the Peterson R4 just randomly started pissing oil. So that has to come out, and go to Peterson for warranty repair. What a pain in the ***.
But anyhow, very pleased at where we are in only 11 months. One bug to fix and its game time. Now that the engine is mostly tuned in all the hard areas, we should easily be able to remote tune the WOT power from the dyno. Im so impressed by how well it free revs, no more stumbling.
Last edited by Monsterbox; Dec 12, 2016 at 09:33 AM.
very nice update! that single wastegate out of the hood via turbine housing will also sound really cool, with all the exhaust pulses collected (well, kinda, because you have two others running at the same time) and shooting out of the hood.
Looks like we've figured out the game plan to get finished up!
1. Peterson is sending a new seal, I'm pulling the pump off this weekend to inspect and replace seal. If it looks bad we'll have to send her off for repair. Peterson says this is extremely unusual. Ya think lol
2. Ordered a new 60mm Turbosmart massive pro-gate. And debating on the massive 1.58 T6 housing, its almost the same size as the largest S500SX rear housing. The turbo doesn't have enough turbine to fully utilize this housing, but it will shift the boost curve outward more and make the car more driveable/help delay the spool so that the wastegates get a chance to react. 3300rpm boost with 2100rpm idle is just nutty right now.
I can't believe i'm even saying this lol. Make the car more laggy who would have ever thought. Many are saying just move up to 100mm turbo etc, but really just want to run 10psi-12psi, I feel like a bigger turbo is a waste unless you're running 20+ psi on racefuel. I want this car to feel just like the 20b, but with larger power band. Same boost range, same fuel type, same driveability, but more low-end and longer top end of rpms. If it can all come together somewhere around 700-800 on pump gas it will be mission complete.
3. dyno time again!
Last edited by Monsterbox; Dec 14, 2016 at 12:38 PM.
that's just nuts. 2 x 50mm wide open and you're getting that kind of response! I wonder if it's due to your intake system.. there's no extra volume to give time for the turbo to build boost? did you think of using dedicated DBW throttle body on the intake system to vent extra boost to control the manifold pressure precisely? just another thing you can consider before you start going down venting through hood route .. I don't know how you're going to ride that thing with wg venting through hood without a hearing protection at WOT. some creature comfort isn't a bad thing to consider imho
either way, nice work!!! can't believe you made it this far so quickly. congrats man!! my engine is back in my car with haltech finally! should be able to fire her up after a few more weekends of work.
This is why we never made it to the racegas pull. Blessed to have found this sooner than later, and to not have lost oil pressure. Fingers crossed there's not any real metal contamination, I assume that's what an oil filter is for right lol? The oil in the pump housings didn't appear to have any visible particles
Pump company said this shouldn't have failed and must been a defective bearing, they will rebuild it
Last edited by Monsterbox; Dec 16, 2016 at 11:42 AM.
Any idea why this happened to the oil pump? Is oil circulated directly to the filter after the pump?
No idea really,
Everything looks fine externally. The cog belt isn't to tight, mounting position and drive speed is correct. I primed the system according to instruction. Its worked fine since the beginning and then went haywire on dyno leaking out of the shaft. It also has the correct drive ratio for the pulley.
The front bearing feels rough, my guess is factory defect in the bearing made it fail it high rpm, which then crashed the pump rotors into the pump housing.
Company says its a freak thing to see, and they gave me an RMA number and said to send it in.
https://www.facebook.com/neal.adderley/videos/10158170097320643/
Quick vid buddy of mine took from the before the dyno day.
So, the Peterson pump has been sent off, it should arrive wednesday for a full rebuild. I've drained the oil and cut open the filter. Poured the oil over a screen and looked through the bottom of the empty drain container with high powered fluorescent. Not a trace of metal. So can certainly say its a relief. I will be flushing the lines between the pump and the oil filter just to be safe however. In mean time, looking at larger turbochargers, maybe s500sx in the 100+mm size range, or a GT55, really need something undivided, as the I've realized the manifold runner priority is 13-24 and should be 1234. Either that, or remake the manifold with better gate priority and runner order. Also have a 60mm turbosmart on the way which would allow us to use the current manifold and run direct off the turbine. So excited to get back in the throttle and finish this thing off, but gotta wait a few more weeks for all the parts to come together correctly! Very glad I didn't spend the money on the transmission upgrades. Gut feeling was to save cash for making corrections/adjustments. Projects like these are never going to run flawless out of the box, there's always something that needs attention, always.
Last edited by Monsterbox; Dec 19, 2016 at 08:16 AM.
or better yet, how about a dyno sheet? 
