AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

I'd like some more info on water vs methanol. I'm not too concerned about cooling at this point, I'm more concerned about HP data. Has anyone dynoed with water and then swapped over to methanol, if yes can you please share your results.

Also, for those running 100% methanol, how much fuel did you have to pull out of your map to compensate for the additional fuel?

Real dyno numbers would help but I know most don't have access to a dyno so I guess the butt dyno will do!.

I will be swapping over to 100% methanol. I started with 100% water, moved to 50/50 and now going to 100% methanol. I'll be on the dyno again with E85 and methanol and I'm hoping I will not have to pull too much fuel out of the map.

Last year with C16 and a 50/50 mix I had no issues, car ran great and made good MPH. I swapped over to E85 last year and was on the dyno recently but with the 50/50 mix I am losing HP. I just used it for cooling so i was not too concerned so I stopped injecting anything and the HP went back up. I think I am injecting too much water/meth. I wonder if it is because I had the 50/50 mix all winter in the car so I might just drain it and start with a new mix. I'll be back on the dyno with E85 and 100% methanol in a week or two, I'll post the results.

Thanks,

Anthony

killahrx7

hey anthony i'm about to do the same on a customer's car, well not exactly, i planned on using denatured alcohol figured it's a little cheaper. on the meth note, i did see a guy dynoed his car with 100% meth and lost power, i wasn't too sure of his tuning abilitied though. this was on a SER(nissan).

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

Not sure how this works with E85, but the reason I use 50/50 is for intake cooling benefit and knock deterrent.

I've used both 100% water and 100% meth... I can actually tell a HUGE difference in performance with 50/50 for the better. That's only on the butt dyno tho... sorry for no data, although, I may have some maps that show AITs... I'll have to check.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i don't understand running AI 100% methanol (alcohol) w E85. why not just add additional injectors to your base fuel setup. it would be simpler and perhaps less prone to malfunction.

you are constructiong an additional fuel system to add more of what your base fuel system is injecting.

i love alcohol. it has a number of advantages over any gasoline iteration. it does however contain about half the BTUs (energy) of gasoline. so you need lots and lots of injectors.

i know of a 1000+ rwhp 2 rotor setup that is using 14 1600 injectors.

you pose a very interesting fundamental question... hp between water and alcohol. there are many on both sides of the issue. some say if water is used correctly you can turn up the boost to really high levels. generally they run 7 degrees of IGL and very rich AFRs.

others (myself included) LOVE alcohol. i have moved from 90% duty (850/1600) no AI to 73% duty using about 1300 CC/Min of meth. the engine loves it. no knock. 13 degrees IGL w 11 split. low 11 AFR. 498 rwhp SAE w stock port timing around 18 psi. out of wastegate spring.

back on dyno this monday w 1460 CC/Min, stiffer wastegate springrate, 22 degrees more intake timing fresh motor.

i doubt the fact that the mix sat around caused your hp loss. did you add alot of injector capacity when you switched to E85? AFRs, Timing?

hc

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

Nice, let us know the results. Nice seeing you again stranger.


I've been seeing the same thing.

The lower I get the intake temps, the better it is all around. I am also running E70 which is our winter blend in the NE for E85. Once I am on full E85, I'll probably lower the amount of methanol being injected but I can't see a reason not to, can you? When you mentioned less prone to malfunction, I think most of the guys running 100% meth with pump are in the same boat, if they lose their meth delivery, motor is toast.

I have 2 more injectors to install on the GZ manifold but curious to see how E85 and methanol mesh. I'm measuring HP, torque, intake temps, air fuels etc and as soon as I have my EGTs working again, I'll have some good data to compare.

I had 100% water, swapped to 50/50 and now 100% methanol. I run high 10s and very low 11's (air fuel). With water at those air fuels, I lost HP. With the 50/50 I kept the same HP. Too soon to say on the 100% methanol since I did not lean it out, I'm still in the low 10s.

Do you know why they ran such a low leading timing? My car likes 16-18 deg. I've gone up as far as 22 deg leading advance on 30psi and as low 10, best area for my particular setup is 18deg on C16 and 16 deg on E85. 10-12 deg split.

For now I just have to 4x1680 cc's and that is running 92% duty cycle at 28-30 psi. I added some methanol but left the setup alone so the AF's are in the low 10s now. I only pull fuel out at the track so we'll see how she does. I run the same air fuels. Some say richer is better with E85 and some say leaner is better.

Anthony

BDC

Welcome to the yet fully unexplored world of AI, Anthony.

B

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

Now known as AI-85

enzo250

Anthony,

Howard is right.. What are you trying to gain with running water?
Your already running alcohol. i Would run 100% meth since that will add better cooling then ethanol. What he means by less prone to malfuction is your meth will become an additional fuel source. IF that for some reason decides to not work you just removed a fuel supply from your engine.. This could be a problem

ideally running all your fuel from injectors thru your ecu will be the best way...

Water is for guys who are running pump fuel..

Viking War Hammer

iTrader: (8)

I run E85, and run AI because I'm not running a intercooler. Which is best, 100% Methanol or Water?

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

I don't have any dyno numbers between AI on or off yet, because in the past I've always just left the system on the entire time.

I can tell you though, that stylemon is certainly right about 50/50 being the best. Anthony seems to agree as well. Its much easier to burn than straight water (which doesn't burn ) you get the superior cooling of meth, with the knock supression of water. Best of both worlds! My car likes a mix more then it does straight H20, but I run water anyways because it suits my needs and there's always some around

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

With water last year more tuning was involved, with 50/50, I turned it on and didn't even know it was on, with methanol aside from the car running richer, it was pretty easy too.


With 100% meth depending on your nozzles you will have to pull fuel out of your E85 map and if it fails like Enzo and Howard noted you will be up the creek. You're going on a dyno soon so play around.


I'm not running water, last year was running the 50/50 and now 100% methanol but I read from Rice Racing and a few AUS guys that they are making X amount of more power with water so I wanted to see if they would respond on the water side. With my setup, I didn't pull fuel out with the meth, I tuned on E85 alone and then turned on the meth. AFs got rich and I left it alone but I understand what you're saying if I pulled fuel out.

enzo250

Why would you need knock supression when running alcohol as your primary fuel source?
Also you do know that water doesn't provide any energy so where would you get your power from?
Last time i checked alcohol funny cars don't burn water for more power. They mix nitro into there alcohol.

water injection, water/meth, etc, etc is for guys who are running pump fuel and need the knock supression/cooling effects..

enzo250

Meth.

rx72c

iTrader: (8)

How much hp did you gain by switching the AI off when you were on e85?

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

Almost 40 because the air fuels went rich. Can you share some of your experience with water only?

Viking War Hammer

iTrader: (8)

Thanks for the reply, both here and the drag forum.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

I was stating what I found, and I run regular dinosaur carcasses. No corn for this fella.

Wasn't saying you need it with ethanol as your base fuel, just what I found on reg. pump which is the car responded best (minimal tuning when its on) to 50/50.

Viking War Hammer

iTrader: (8)

Does nitro provide any cooling? maybe I'll try spraying some of that next week..

enzo250

That's what i'm trying to say.. 50/50 is good for pump fuel..
This car is already running ethanol. Water is not going to do any good.
There's no reason to be adding that in..

enzo250

It sure does.. Although i probably wouldn't experiment with that on your engine since your already worried about the rear plate

Stick to the meth...

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

I think that is what this whole thread is about, finding data to show/prove this...

The OP is running e85 and whats data on the difference between 50/50 and 100% meth.

rx72c

iTrader: (8)

If your running e85.

Water will come into play around 35+psi.
I have tuned a car to 45psi with e85.

And over 35psi knock got a little out of control.
We setup a small water injection system on their with a 550cc jet and were able to bring the knock right back with around 5hp loss on 35psi.

But remember. the above is only a small amount of water for the volume of e85 going through. But it did the trick.

For anything under 30psi. Adding AI with e85 is a waste of time.

Pump fuel is a completely different story.

I would like to know. When people are installing AI what are they looking to reduce?

EGTs? or knock?
When i do it. I looking to reduce knock mostly. EGTs to come down. BUT KNOCK is what kills engines.
You can have low egts such 1500F and still blow an engine to bits.

And if your adding water to your enigne and your loosing 20+hp. Your ignition is **** or your simply adding too much water.
And lots of the ignition systems people are using are crappy.

BDC

Great post rx72c.

B

pmrobert

Scenario: 12A planning on running low boost (<15psi), no intercooler, using E85 - was planning on pre- and post- turbo AI w/ water to reduce IAT. Comments? AI is pretty much installed, first startup will be very soon.

Viper GTSR

RX72c, what do you (and any others please comment as well) think an FD can be tuned/boosted upto running a properly set-up motor on straight water inj. on 93oct. pump fuel. I want a reliable 26PSI daily driver (~550rwhp) on pump and AI... is that redily possible in your opinion based on what you've seen on water inj. ?