Water vs Methanol - RWHP Info
I'd like some more info on water vs methanol. I'm not too concerned about cooling at this point, I'm more concerned about HP data. Has anyone dynoed with water and then swapped over to methanol, if yes can you please share your results.
Also, for those running 100% methanol, how much fuel did you have to pull out of your map to compensate for the additional fuel? Real dyno numbers would help but I know most don't have access to a dyno so I guess the butt dyno will do!. I will be swapping over to 100% methanol. I started with 100% water, moved to 50/50 and now going to 100% methanol. I'll be on the dyno again with E85 and methanol and I'm hoping I will not have to pull too much fuel out of the map. Last year with C16 and a 50/50 mix I had no issues, car ran great and made good MPH. I swapped over to E85 last year and was on the dyno recently but with the 50/50 mix I am losing HP. I just used it for cooling so i was not too concerned so I stopped injecting anything and the HP went back up. I think I am injecting too much water/meth. I wonder if it is because I had the 50/50 mix all winter in the car so I might just drain it and start with a new mix. I'll be back on the dyno with E85 and 100% methanol in a week or two, I'll post the results. Thanks, Anthony |
hey anthony i'm about to do the same on a customer's car, well not exactly, i planned on using denatured alcohol figured it's a little cheaper. on the meth note, i did see a guy dynoed his car with 100% meth and lost power, i wasn't too sure of his tuning abilitied though. this was on a SER(nissan).
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Not sure how this works with E85, but the reason I use 50/50 is for intake cooling benefit and knock deterrent.
I've used both 100% water and 100% meth... I can actually tell a HUGE difference in performance with 50/50 for the better. That's only on the butt dyno tho... sorry for no data, although, I may have some maps that show AITs... I'll have to check. |
i don't understand running AI 100% methanol (alcohol) w E85. why not just add additional injectors to your base fuel setup. it would be simpler and perhaps less prone to malfunction.
you are constructiong an additional fuel system to add more of what your base fuel system is injecting. i love alcohol. it has a number of advantages over any gasoline iteration. it does however contain about half the BTUs (energy) of gasoline. so you need lots and lots of injectors. i know of a 1000+ rwhp 2 rotor setup that is using 14 1600 injectors. you pose a very interesting fundamental question... hp between water and alcohol. there are many on both sides of the issue. some say if water is used correctly you can turn up the boost to really high levels. generally they run 7 degrees of IGL and very rich AFRs. others (myself included) LOVE alcohol. i have moved from 90% duty (850/1600) no AI to 73% duty using about 1300 CC/Min of meth. the engine loves it. no knock. 13 degrees IGL w 11 split. low 11 AFR. 498 rwhp SAE w stock port timing around 18 psi. out of wastegate spring. back on dyno this monday w 1460 CC/Min, stiffer wastegate springrate, 22 degrees more intake timing fresh motor. i doubt the fact that the mix sat around caused your hp loss. did you add alot of injector capacity when you switched to E85? AFRs, Timing? hc |
Originally Posted by killahrx7
(Post 9229837)
hey anthony i'm about to do the same on a customer's car, well not exactly, i planned on using denatured alcohol figured it's a little cheaper. on the meth note, i did see a guy dynoed his car with 100% meth and lost power, i wasn't too sure of his tuning abilitied though. this was on a SER(nissan).
Originally Posted by stylEmon
(Post 9229908)
Not sure how this works with E85, but the reason I use 50/50 is for intake cooling benefit and knock deterrent.
I've used both 100% water and 100% meth... I can actually tell a HUGE difference in performance with 50/50 for the better.
Originally Posted by howard coleman
(Post 9230538)
i don't understand running AI 100% methanol (alcohol) w E85. why not just add additional injectors to your base fuel setup. it would be simpler and perhaps less prone to malfunction.
I have 2 more injectors to install on the GZ manifold but curious to see how E85 and methanol mesh. I'm measuring HP, torque, intake temps, air fuels etc and as soon as I have my EGTs working again, I'll have some good data to compare.
Originally Posted by howard coleman
(Post 9230538)
you pose a very interesting fundamental question... hp between water and alcohol. there are many on both sides of the issue. some say if water is used correctly you can turn up the boost to really high levels. generally they run 7 degrees of IGL and very rich AFRs.
Do you know why they ran such a low leading timing? My car likes 16-18 deg. I've gone up as far as 22 deg leading advance on 30psi and as low 10, best area for my particular setup is 18deg on C16 and 16 deg on E85. 10-12 deg split.
Originally Posted by howard coleman
(Post 9230538)
did you add alot of injector capacity when you switched to E85? AFRs, Timing?
hc Anthony |
Welcome to the yet fully unexplored world of AI, Anthony. :)
B |
Originally Posted by BDC
(Post 9239635)
Welcome to the yet fully unexplored world of AI, Anthony. :)
B |
Anthony,
Howard is right.. What are you trying to gain with running water? Your already running alcohol. i Would run 100% meth since that will add better cooling then ethanol. What he means by less prone to malfuction is your meth will become an additional fuel source. IF that for some reason decides to not work you just removed a fuel supply from your engine.. This could be a problem :) ideally running all your fuel from injectors thru your ecu will be the best way... Water is for guys who are running pump fuel.. |
I run E85, and run AI because I'm not running a intercooler. Which is best, 100% Methanol or Water?
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I don't have any dyno numbers between AI on or off yet, because in the past I've always just left the system on the entire time.
I can tell you though, that stylemon is certainly right about 50/50 being the best. Anthony seems to agree as well. Its much easier to burn than straight water (which doesn't burn :lol:) you get the superior cooling of meth, with the knock supression of water. Best of both worlds! My car likes a mix more then it does straight H20, but I run water anyways because it suits my needs and there's always some around :) |
Originally Posted by classicauto
(Post 9244964)
I don't have any dyno numbers between AI on or off yet, because in the past I've always just left the system on the entire time.
I can tell you though, that stylemon is certainly right about 50/50 being the best. Anthony seems to agree as well. Its much easier to burn than straight water (which doesn't burn :lol:) you get the superior cooling of meth, with the knock supression of water. Best of both worlds! My car likes a mix more then it does straight H20, but I run water anyways because it suits my needs and there's always some around :)
Originally Posted by Viking War Hammer
(Post 9244919)
I run E85, and run AI because I'm not running a intercooler. Which is best, 100% Methanol or Water?
Originally Posted by enzo250
(Post 9244870)
Anthony,
Howard is right.. What are you trying to gain with running water? Your already running alcohol. i Would run 100% meth since that will add better cooling then ethanol. What he means by less prone to malfuction is your meth will become an additional fuel source. IF that for some reason decides to not work you just removed a fuel supply from your engine.. This could be a problem :) ideally running all your fuel from injectors thru your ecu will be the best way... Water is for guys who are running pump fuel.. |
Originally Posted by classicauto
(Post 9244964)
I can tell you though, that stylemon is certainly right about 50/50 being the best. Anthony seems to agree as well. Its much easier to burn than straight water (which doesn't burn :lol:) you get the superior cooling of meth, with the knock supression of water. Best of both worlds! My car likes a mix more then it does straight H20, but I run water anyways because it suits my needs and there's always some around :)
Also you do know that water doesn't provide any energy so where would you get your power from? Last time i checked alcohol funny cars don't burn water for more power. They mix nitro into there alcohol. :) water injection, water/meth, etc, etc is for guys who are running pump fuel and need the knock supression/cooling effects.. |
Originally Posted by Viking War Hammer
(Post 9244919)
I run E85, and run AI because I'm not running a intercooler. Which is best, 100% Methanol or Water?
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How much hp did you gain by switching the AI off when you were on e85?
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Originally Posted by rx72c
(Post 9246868)
How much hp did you gain by switching the AI off when you were on e85?
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Originally Posted by enzo250
(Post 9246685)
Meth.
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Originally Posted by enzo250
(Post 9246677)
Why would you need knock supression when running alcohol as your primary fuel source?
Also you do know that water doesn't provide any energy so where would you get your power from? Last time i checked alcohol funny cars don't burn water for more power. They mix nitro into there alcohol. :) water injection, water/meth, etc, etc is for guys who are running pump fuel and need the knock supression/cooling effects.. Wasn't saying you need it with ethanol as your base fuel, just what I found on reg. pump which is the car responded best (minimal tuning when its on) to 50/50. |
Does nitro provide any cooling? maybe I'll try spraying some of that next week..
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Originally Posted by classicauto
(Post 9247916)
I was stating what I found, and I run regular dinosaur carcasses. No corn for this fella.
This car is already running ethanol. Water is not going to do any good. There's no reason to be adding that in.. |
Originally Posted by Viking War Hammer
(Post 9247963)
Does nitro provide any cooling? maybe I'll try spraying some of that next week..
Stick to the meth... |
This car is already running ethanol. Water is not going to do any good. There's no reason to be adding that in.. The OP is running e85 and whats data on the difference between 50/50 and 100% meth. |
If your running e85.
Water will come into play around 35+psi. I have tuned a car to 45psi with e85. And over 35psi knock got a little out of control. We setup a small water injection system on their with a 550cc jet and were able to bring the knock right back with around 5hp loss on 35psi. But remember. the above is only a small amount of water for the volume of e85 going through. But it did the trick. For anything under 30psi. Adding AI with e85 is a waste of time. Pump fuel is a completely different story. I would like to know. When people are installing AI what are they looking to reduce? EGTs? or knock? When i do it. I looking to reduce knock mostly. EGTs to come down. BUT KNOCK is what kills engines. You can have low egts such 1500F and still blow an engine to bits. And if your adding water to your enigne and your loosing 20+hp. Your ignition is shit or your simply adding too much water. And lots of the ignition systems people are using are crappy. |
Great post rx72c.
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Scenario: 12A planning on running low boost (<15psi), no intercooler, using E85 - was planning on pre- and post- turbo AI w/ water to reduce IAT. Comments? AI is pretty much installed, first startup will be very soon.
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RX72c, what do you (and any others please comment as well) think an FD can be tuned/boosted upto running a properly set-up motor on straight water inj. on 93oct. pump fuel. I want a reliable 26PSI daily driver (~550rwhp) on pump and AI... is that redily possible in your opinion based on what you've seen on water inj. ?
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