photopaintball

First of all let me say I know there has been a lot of valuable info exchanged in this thread, and all I want is to learn a little about what is best for me. Both systems have been proven and each has their pluses and minuses.

small rant:

Why cant you just ignore eachother. Am I the only one who realizes RiceRacing is just sarcastic online? What about BDC being just as bad back? If someone is pissing you off that much please either leave, ignore it, or report it to a moderator. I want to read about AI from car guys not have a repeat of my girlfriend on her period. Hope I didn't offend anyone, because thats not my goal.

/small rant

Anyway, on topic. I have explored meth for the last few months, and now I want to look into WATER. I want to see some charts, if not only for tuning water injection into my megasquirt when I buy AI parts. I have seen some big gains with water other places on the internet, but if you have any application specific that would be really cool.

Thanks,
Noah

RICE RACING

^ Very correct

RICE RACING

Noah,

Application specific:

My "claims" :P

13BT 500+rwhp in your talk on pump fuel 11.7 to 12.9:1 AFR, same spark timing as you would normally use and 350 to 450cc/min (at WOT from revs 5500rpm to 8500rpm) water flow rate pre turbo with CDI ignition system and B10EGV heat range spark plugs at minimum is all you need to know.

Tuning window with capable spark is 9.8:1 to 14.0:1 @ WOT for boost levels under 2.0bar gauge pressue on your typical single turbo side port set up.

If you want some proven system parts to do a simple pneumatic single turbo set up then I can help you procure these.... I have so many cars running around with this set up its crazy, all happy customers BTW and ALL make BIG POWER (as listed in my WI experience thread) with 100% durability.

The beauty you will find with WATER INJECTION is the tuning window is VERY VERY LARGE. We had one notable car here 4 years ago in the countries premier dyno competition and it was making wining power regardless if the AFR was set to 12.5:1 or down at 10.0:1, did 3 runs back to back ! On the street car was undrivable (it had so much power) 13BT T2 street port block in first gen with T66 running 20 psi boost.

I am so at ease with supplying these kits to even obvious gumbies cause its near impossible to screw anything up when running one, its a rotary NIRVANA mate Any WI will be the same for that matter, my friend from Norway proved that beyond doubt with his record setting engine dyno tests of 580+bhp with 3rd party gheto WI kit (his description not mine !), prior to him seeing the light and listening to my *claims* the engine failed at far lower power levels.

PM me if you need some advise or any assistance.

Peter

RICE RACING

We have one circuit club racer who runs no IC and only water injection on his 12a turbo @ up to 19psi boost ...... its not a way I would go but people do it and have no problems.

A nice engine bay mounted IC with short plumbing is the ideal solution, it gives you more mass flow rate and less stress on the turbine and engine, water on top realy does its job in the engine, but pre turbo it also gives you more compressor flow (hence why I put it there).

sdminus

I can agree 100 % with what pete is saying.

Basically many people are drowning there engines in petrol and water by running too rich and with too much water being controlled by a boost orientated curve rather than a injector fuel curve. It goes with out saying that if you pump loads of water in at the low revs high boost areas you are killing the power and this is what 99 % of people are doing right now.

When i started playing with water you could feal the car was slow and un responsive with water and a rich fuel curve. But as the fuel came out the performance gains evlevated conciderably. It also has the advantage of keeping a familar behaviour ( petrol ) Which is something none of the other methods can boast.

Like i have said before if i had a single turbo i would defo go pre turbo. If it is good enough for top fuel dragsters then its good enough for me

Scott

photopaintball

Is the only downside of preturbo the possibility of water pooling in the intercooler?

photopaintball

Thanks. I am purchasing megasquirt in the next couple days, so things should be up and running in a month or so hopefully.

RICE RACING

Physicaly no such thing can ever occur due to the volumes we are using and the air speed associated in operation

If you use a pre presurized water tank and you take the cap off after a boost run you will see water vapour still in full suspension in the air the energy of the compression and turbulence keeps its this way no matter how cold it gets.....

blitzboy

Rice Can you run 50:50 mix Preturbo? or is this method only water?

ScuttleRX

On a different thread on a WI forum, I think I recall seeing a picture of a set up (think it was a dragster) that was running some fuel injection pre-turbo , so think it would be possible....i'll let someone else who knows for sure answer though

javrosario

iTrader: (5)

Isn't another thing about WI that it also increases compression?

photopaintball

The why doesnt EVERYONE do it that way? It sounds a lot better to me.

My setup would be (in order):

air filter
AI nozzle
turbo
water/air intercooler
throttle body
engine
turbo again

and there is no problem with that? Why dont more people run water injection preturbo? Are they just stubborn?

ScuttleRX

Done wrong, could cause compressor blade wear...and none of the manafacturers of the pump based systems recommend using it pre turbo with their set-ups (yet!), probably as a water only jet wont atomise finely enough to avoid damage. I suppose thats what puts most people off.

RICE RACING

The SECRET is in the air/water atomizer, the units I supply & calibrate deliver drop sizes of 20 microns (VMD) Volume mean diameter, and this is at 10psi or 0.7 bar water pressure, it does this via a mixing chamber and carefully directed air jets into water stream to deliver a truely atomized water vapour = no damage and MAXIMUM performance.

Typicaly Fine spray jets (the best of them) will deliver 300 to 400 micron size droplets ! @ low pressure and get about 200 micron size @ 100psi delivery pressure (10 times bigger size than a good atomizing jet) For reference 500 microns = half a millimeter These (all water only jets be they fine spray, hollow cone, flat fan or full cone pattern) are not water atomizers and will never deliver the same results for obvious reasons.

I have un parralleled sucsess with my air/water atomizing jet simple pneumatic pre turbo systems, may have something to do with how well the water is atomized

ScuttleRX

I keep thinking about a chargecooler....

The benefit I like is the lack of pressure drop (only about 0.1 bar), which would prove very handy on the twins, especially up the top end. The thing that has put me off is there reputation for track use, i.e temps building up and coolant for the CC not being able to get rid of enough heat and gradually getting hotter and hotter.

But with a pre-turbo set up might not be a problem due to the drop in air temps from the turbos, what do you think, is it an option.

Or are there IC set-ups that can match/beat this pressure drop, any recommendations would be great

RICE RACING

Alot of the pressure drops you get (well tapers in boost in higher revs) even happens in massive charge coolers when applied to earlier generation engines with S4 or S5 based turbochargers.

What you find is once you get to a certain mass flow rate through the engine the turbine cant pass anymore and the more you bleed off through the waste section exagerates the problem so you end up with a boost taper. The boost retention on a non IC car is a false economy as your making less power anyway and have fewer gas flow problems on a whole system level. Your issues magically go away when you put on a correct sized turbocharger to match your engines new Ve and air flow rate

This is graphic when you use the same identical compressor and housing but go to a large frame turbo (turbine and housing) and experience no such issues as plauged your previous set up, and you magicaly end up with another 50rwhp for the same boost rpm conditions as well.

WI and no IC is not a fix all for mismatched turbo's to engines, and high end FD stock twin platform's will always have some level of boost drop off no matter what you do...

ScuttleRX

Does having the blades clipped on the turbine side help at all, ive heard this can improve efficiency at the top end to a certain degree.

Sounds like ill be getting some high level boost drop whatever so probably best to go for a decent IC to save any potential probs of a CC.

Depending if funds allow, id like a switch to a set of BNR stage 3's which should prove a bit more efficent

BDC

... Let I remind the readership that you still have yet to provide any tangible, real-world data to the wild claims you're making...

sdminus

Hang on a second............

There have been no wild claims made. I have tuned back pretty close to what has been claimed with no adverse effects.

Before this thread gets unhinged again i would like to add that no where on any of these threads have i seen 1 dyno graph to show real results from any set up. Be it water meth 50:50 or any other mix.
If no data of such is displayed then we all need to agree on a standard format from which we all can display results.

This counts for Me included. I have data and i know what i have seen in my experiances but i have nothing hard to show for it.

Scott

BDC

The difference between you and him Scott is that you're #1 providing sensible, believable data and without the callous, abusive attitude. You're also showing tangibility in the way of a video here and there (for instance, the in-car one w/ the oscillating AFR gauge) as well as particular specifications on the tools and parts you're using. Yours is more oriented as an on-going project rather than an "old-hat" sort of thing tainted with the "and you're all (insert name calling here) if you don't agree with me" inferences. I believe the things you're claiming because you've got substantive data to back it up. You seem to be genuinely interested in stepping outside of the box as it were. You're objective and fair with questions and responses. Peter, however, isn't. He doesn't answer legitimate questions. He skips over them and instead asserts his own "facts". He did it over and over and over countless times in the older thread that was deleted a few weeks back. He's also highly inconsistent on his technical claims, as if he's bouncing around to try and win support while ignoring veracity. He says one thing, then in the very next post says something else that's anti-thetical to the first. He also blatantly ignores other, highly relevant data even though it's not technically from the *same car*. It's as if he's more interested in knocking out the pro-alcohol competition just to make some sales of his product (and he'll do this by all means necessary). A number of his bolded and italicized technical claims are outrageous and I'm surprised that others on this forum aren't catching them.

I hope that helps clear up my distinction there.

B

RICE RACING

User pp13b, water injection customer, some history and results, happy reading (warning) these links contain facts and real experience & NOT BS AND HYPE and MISINFORMANTION if you want that go to Brians site *be warned though he might ban you if you have a brain or type up real information*

*NOTE* This is a multiple year run car, which did many thousands of killometers, all documented on below links on ausrotary, with numerous dyno sheets (of same or higher power level than posted !)
This is called EXPERIENCE Brian ! something you dont have yet
Or maybe its all just an outrageous claim on my part?

http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...er=asc&start=0

http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...871&highlight=

http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...839&highlight=

http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...=asc&start=200

http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/for...449&highlight=




"PP13B's car...

Totaly 100% stock std S5 motor with 60000km+ on it (30000km @ hi power level).
2mm oem seals
no extra dowels
no machining work to rotors
no increased oil pressure
no porting to speak of (finger test ) would class it as std basicaly.
58mm comp wheel TO4 (hand me down turbo with a "bit of use on it" 50000km @ 350rwkw level never run with BOV)
gheto (no offence tom) S5 intercoolers welded together in parrallel FMIC
Budget Crane HI6 CDI set up (stock bosch coils)
RICE RACING water injection kit
100% 98 Octane Optimax fuel with 80:1 to 100:1 premix of two stroke oil, no octane boosters at all.
4 X 12AT injectors & 044 fuel pump

25psi boost spike and settles on 23psi (turbo wont hold boost) too much power on that comp wheel, makes max power at about 6000 to 6500rpm then falls down from there.

*NOTE* This is just a bit of info, car is not tuned for a dyno run figure, just a reliable daily driven package basicaly because TOM is the tightest person I have ever met Thats no meant to detract from anyones efforts or way they do work at all, I just set up the car under high load stress situation on the road to what I know will live and what she does on the dyno she does "


And Mr BDC ....... I dont need to type anything about you anymore !

RICE RACING

LOL LOL LOL

Yes Brian, I think your only option is to try and get me banned to stop yourself from looking like more of a tool, good luck on that though you will need it......

RX7CLUB unlike your site is after real information and not HYPE ! real results ! real time and real experience with rotaries & anti detonation devices, upon request I am providing it ! Your constant un relenting whinging and moaning in every thread is very tiresome. The readership can make up their own mind. I challenge anyone to buy a kit of me (or I will help them to make a similar one !) and not replicate my proven results. They will only have sucsess with minimal head aches, just like the list of results I provided in the experience thread

RICE RACING

Some more *claims* hem hem FACTS ! about my WI advice in this thread (below) and how its achieved proven results for people who want real knowledge on this topic....

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...00#post6248600

Anyone in doubt can PM the people quoted in the links

BDC

I thought you said you didn't need to type anything about me anymore, Mr 320.6kw? (what happened to the 560 or whatever it was??)

RICE RACING

I pitty you Brian, its a shame cause I am sure your a talented person. Please stop with the childish comments in every one of my threads, its making you look real bad.