sdminus

Ok. Disapointed at the evaporation of the other thread i would like to try again.

This is my thread and i will cry if i want to.

Please keep it all Fact with no blatant product endorsment. There was a lot of knowledge about to spill out of the previous thread but it got cut short. I will dig out some data and stuff to kick things off in a mo.

Over to you boys.

Scott

BDC

Thanks for the new thread, Scott.

As I posted over in Howard's 80/20 thread, I am doing some testing today. I've got an errand to run up to Dallas that requires about 30 miles of round-trip highway travel so I'll have plenty of opportunity today to get some datalogging in. I plan on cranking up the boost to well past 1bar if everything suffices.

Currently running a 75/25 ratio of gasoline to methanol at 15psi+ boost (having removed 25% of my fuel injection on my old 100% gasoline tuned map) stepping down to only a few % at 5.5-6psi of boost when the alcohol system comes online at low pressure.

B

BoostedRex

Good deal with starting a new thread. I'll keep an eye on this one to make sure it doesn't get out of hand.

Zach

sdminus

Ive been really busy today doing a Water injection test (again)

So far i have maped the following

Methanol

50:50

I am now playing with straight water.

I have also sprayed various mixes into another wise safe fuel map to gauge what goes on.

I will get my note pad out and take some notes from what i have done so i can post up some propper ( real world info taken from my own car )

Scott

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

I am going to give what information I know about all these AI systems, including my personal experiences and some of the points touched on by the threads that are still here or are gone.

Facts about WI:

1. Water can remove more heat then Alch or Meth
2. Water is the superior knock supressant (it doesnt burn, infinate octane)
3. Water can NOT be injected in large amounts (i.e. 50% water to fuel ratio) or can NOT be substituted entirely as a fuel or we would all be burning it.
4. Water is FREE
5. Require another pump and tank

Facts about Meth and Ethanol:

1. Have a lower ability to cool (latent heat of vaporization)
2. Have an effective octane of around 110
3. Can be injected in any amount, or can entirely replace Gasoline as the primary fuel (see alcohol funny cars, et al)
4. Once injected above a certain amount, will start to remove more heat then water, and can continue to do so with even more increased amounts.
5. Cost money.
6. Are NHRA legal in all states
7. Require another pump and tank

The NACA study:

Some will trot out an old study done by the government where an airplane motor was run on water and on alcohol. The study concluded that water was superior to alcohol injection. What WASNT said, was that the amounts of water and alcohol injected were the SAME amounts. No variation in delivery. This could be due to the fact that being an aircraft application, the tank size is a CRUCIAL factor. Not so much in cars (see Water Burners).

Here is a study where it is shown that 50/50 water/meth is superior to water for knock supression thresholds in aircraft.

http://www.enginehistory.org/Convent...awPete/ADI.pdf

Also, here are the NACA studies on water (interestingly enough, they cite the overuse of water as a limiting factor in the study):

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/downloads/NACA_H2O_2.pdf
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/downloads/NACA_H2O_2.pdf

So which one is the better knock suppresant? Thats inherently easy to answer. Its water. Which one makes more power? Well, thats not so easy to answer because you can in theory inject enough Meth or Alchy to make more power and cool better.

So what system is for you?

Thats your choice. I run an Alchy system because I have personally logged temperature drops in excess of 50 degrees from ambient while injecting. Furthermore, I did 387 RWHP on 91 octane with alchy, and 434 RWHP on 104 and alchy. This was on a stock motor, stock ports. This motor recently came apart for rebuild and the apex seals showed NO SIGNS OF WEAR. In addition, I can run larger amounts of boost on days when I dont feel like ponying up for race gas. HOWEVER I am a drag racer, and we generally dont look for options that allow us to remain on a track for any extended length of time. So its no problem for me to refill my tank if I run low, as i just carry another jug with me. Also my car RARELY leaves town, so the limiting factors are not much of a hassle for me. This car made tons of 12 and 11 second passes down the 1/4 mile in Tucson heat with no complaints for over 3 years. I think that speaks volumes for AI itself.

FYI it looks like I may be upgrading to a meth kit. Much more energy stored there, but requires even more to be injected then alchy.

Summation:

I am not a "alchy" proponent, I am a proponent of what works for YOU. My results are posted everywhere, and I wont steer anyone to or from any form of AI, because they all have merits. I will continue to use AI, but I will definately be looking at 50/50 meth water, or straight meth.

If i missed anything or provided any erroneous information, please let me know.

Jarrett

RICE RACING

To add to Jarrett's stats (nend to find link again since its been deleted in other thread)

But have done 443rwhp @ 26psi on our 98 RON (= your 93 MON octane rating) with stock T2 block engine, the 443rwhp is on a dyno dynamics dyno which reads significantly less thn a dyno jet unit. Dynojet number would be 500rwhp.

Similar result to his in reliability 60 000km + covered when engine tore down had minimal apex seal height variation to stock, had no leading edge chamfering and had no bowing of seal either.

Water can be injected at ratio up to 50% of pertol supply, but you need to run lean (unlike methanol) this is published way back in 1930's tests and can be easily verified. *just to clear up that point* and you still make big increases in BMEP and power. Common set ups though we use around 18 to 25% to fuel ratio........ it just depends on what your trying to do and how you go about it, on some cars the minimum I use is 9% to get significant gains.

Its also a balance to do a race distance as well?
When Ferrari and Renault were using WI in F1 turbo era they were running around 9% area, just enough to give them a big advantage over others but carry minimum wieght penalty (for WI system inc fluid) over the course of a grand prix distance its a balance

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

As an addition, my 434 was at 20.6 PSI on a dynojet.

50% of fuel delivered with pure water? Is this one of the other NACA tests? Please post the link because I would like to see the particulars (engine type, fuel used, ignition system, etc...). And if this was done on a rotary then that would interesting too.

Of course. I all but handed you that premise on a platter. Less water can be injected to be a knock suppressant. But if additional cooling is your goal, then a larger tank with more alchohol or meth will better suit your needs if longevity of your supply isnt an issue. Not too mention that Meth/Alchy releases energy. No energy in water other then some mild dissasociation of 02 due to vaporization.

again, I am posting what I have researched over the 2 years I have been using AI.

RICE RACING

Yeah I need to post up dyno graph again but it was.

26psi 5000rpm 443rwhp
23psi 7500rpm 440rwhp

On dyno dynamics, when I have time will dig up link again and post it. Same for your other requests

sdminus

After a long conversation with Richard from aquamist yesterday he sent me this link in the absence of his forum.

I could ask him to take part in this forum ?

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthr...0&page=1&pp=15

RICE RACING

He knows a lot, sure get him to come past I could do with some more help educating people why water is the ultimate answer for turbo rotary reliabillity

The more I look at my race spec Aquamist kit the more I wish it (my new engine combination) was all ready right now for some 30psi boosted pump fueled love

P.S. Cant wait for his forum to be back up and running !!!!

BoostedRex

What size injectors are you guys using for your AI? Both for the WI and 50/50 crowds?

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

I use a 7 pound nozzle for pure alch.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

nozzle sizing, methanol, per Julio Don Alkycontrol:

one M10 400 rwhp
one M15 500 BDC runs this setup currently
two M10s 550-600 i run
one M10 and one M15 650+

hp above is for piston engines. rotaries should make a bit less. i assume different systems would produce somewhat diff results for the same sizing.

howard coleman

sdminus

There was a hell of a lot of referance material on there that we could do with posting up on here.

BNA_ELLIS

I run 15.1 gph nozzle on 50/50 mix

sdminus

I run 1 x aquamist 0.8mm jet @330cc/1

I have 2 but i currently only use 1.
In the past i have used the m rated nozzels. I think they originate from oil heating systems

When i ran 100 % meth AI i used 1 x M5 (316cc)and 1x m 0.5 (30cc i think)

I found that when using alch the egts were very low on boost and i had to lean back further than i was confortable with ( past 12.3:1 at 16.5 psi ) The timing had to be quite aggresive in order to get a good burn from the lazy burning meth. IAT's were icy cold howeva but the tune never gave me confidence due to the fittings on the kit and the random nature of the afrs after tuning ( due to the pulsation of the pump ) I also had some problems with deposits in the tank and eventually block nozzels. One good thing came from it tho. I could see the spray patten on the throttle butterflys so could tell i was getting very poor cylinder distribution. With the pump i run at high delivery you will get a lot of drop off when you up the delivery ( ie the head of pressure will drop off ) its well documented that a pressure of 60 psi is required to atomise the fuel correctly ( i strongly believe this to be true in all usages in this field ) poor atomisation wil only lead to droplets etc.

With the 50:50 i switched to aquamist jets. i ran 1 x 0.8mm jet and all new fittings to cure the previous problems. I also run a DDS3 to monitor the flow ( i did post a video up of this in action )http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a32...3092006011.flv
This tune was completly differant. I was able to pull more fuel out and also run a good level of advance. My inj duty on 4 x 850 cc inj was back to 80 % with low egts at the same icy cold intakes. eg on a 21 deg Cday with 46 % humidity with 50:50 i was getting AIT's of 9 deg C. This tune made more power than the meth tune and felt more stable in general. I will revisit this tune next week to take more fuel out ( following some assement and calculations today )

My new tune is 100% water. SO far i am back to 12.5:1 at 16.6 psi on a close split.Still loads to play out on this one.( following on from todays home work LOL).
So far it seems the more meth i pull the more power i can make and the more stable the car is in general. There is only one way to prove it... I will just have to re tune my car again...... its getting silly now becasue its the 5 th time this year LOL

attached is the pic of the meth throttle body and a datalog of meth and 50:50 ( not final tunes )

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

scott,

thanks to an offhand comment on a previous post i contacted dataloglab and straightened out my DLL so it now works w the newer DL. i did my first 06 DLL run yesterday and made 421 going up a hill. (a police free area)

how do i capture the window in the DLL so i am able to post it?

thanks and thanks for all the good info.

howard coleman

sdminus

Cool. copy it to the clipboard and inport it to word. Do a paste special.
See how you get on

Scott

Richard L

My first post, a few days too late. Pity I have missed all the excitiments from the deleted thread.

Having visited a few other threads for the last few days, great to know the Rotary technology is still going strong, very encouraged that water/alcohol has made its mark on the community.

I know very little about the rotaries so Iam here to learn. I am an engineer so selling is not my strong point. My aim is not to push our Water injection system, but like to join in and acquire some new knowledge on WAI on Rotary engines. Something all WIA systems share and capable of delivering.

I do have a question if anyone can help me with, what is the ideal afr to get best power from a rotary? disregard the safety factors.

crispeed

Welcome to the club Richard.
It's nice to see someone at your level of experience chime in on the subject matter.

RICE RACING

ON a street ported modern 13B I have found 13.1:1 the point of maximum power when running Shell Optimax 98 Ron

sdminus

Nice one Boss glad you could join us. Lets hope we can get the info flowing again like last time we tried LOL.

Scott

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

it is a great pleasure to welcome one of the most accomplished players in the AI world. many of us have hugely benefitted from the AQ site as well as AQ's products.

thanks for blazing the trail Richard

howard coleman

hondahater

iTrader: (2)

unfortunately I'm a newby to the AI game so I haven't seen the auqamist forum yet however am waiting very patiantly for it to come back online. Glad to see you here Richard! Lets get this discussion going strong again I have a feeling lots more can be learned now. Should be nice to see a guy with mainly piston knowledge learn about rotaries, this way he will be able to tell us the major differances we need to look out for when getting on other sites and gathering info from piston people.

coolingmist

Welcome to our board Richard.