Is running NON-INTERCOOLED an option ?
09-13-07, 08:25 AM
#26
Actually......snowperformance has a shot of a nozzle being tested prior to install. It should give you a good idea of the spray pattern. (thier site is down right now or I'd link you)
I wouldn't worry about it pooling. There should be lots of airflow to scavenge the meth out of there
I would think that for that power level to achieve a 50/50 mix, you're probably going to be running 4 nozzles at the minimum. I would place two near the front (closest to engine....similar to Howard's pair) of the TB elbow, and two more just post turbo to fight the heat where its made....of course, at that point you may consider pre-turbo injection and have the 3rd nozzle be pre turbo, and the fourth just post.
09-13-07, 09:08 AM
#27
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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50% pump.... the balance methanol
methanol has significantly less energy in it per volume compared to gasoline.
that's why 100% meth drag cars have such huge fuel systems.
that's particularly not a big negative as you just inject more volume. you gain the advantage of higher octane and:
auto ignition temp of gasoline including racegas is 660F
auto ignition temp of alcohol 858F.
if you remove 50% of base fuel (gasoline) you have to add almost 2X alcohol.
so doing your typical 850/1600 setup.. total delivery at 100% is 4900CC/min.
take 50% out... you're at 2450 CC gas. you'll need around 4000 CC/Min of alcohol. that would be 6 M10 nozzles. that would be 3 pumps each drawing up to 10 amps.
that would be a major tuning issue. if it were done you'd have huge hp and cooling potential along w major engineering issues.
i suggest you do what i have done which is run two M10s and deliver 1260 CC/Min. the last dyno run i did at 5800 rpm and 16 psi boost i made 364 ft pounds of torque. knock was 1!!. egts were 1150 F pre turbo!
i had an unrelated back pressure problem which should be fixed friday when i get my turbos back w larger turbines.
and also, i agree w classicauto w re to AFR tuning.... tune to normal numbers.
hc
methanol has significantly less energy in it per volume compared to gasoline.
that's why 100% meth drag cars have such huge fuel systems.
that's particularly not a big negative as you just inject more volume. you gain the advantage of higher octane and:
auto ignition temp of gasoline including racegas is 660F
auto ignition temp of alcohol 858F.
if you remove 50% of base fuel (gasoline) you have to add almost 2X alcohol.
so doing your typical 850/1600 setup.. total delivery at 100% is 4900CC/min.
take 50% out... you're at 2450 CC gas. you'll need around 4000 CC/Min of alcohol. that would be 6 M10 nozzles. that would be 3 pumps each drawing up to 10 amps.
that would be a major tuning issue. if it were done you'd have huge hp and cooling potential along w major engineering issues.
i suggest you do what i have done which is run two M10s and deliver 1260 CC/Min. the last dyno run i did at 5800 rpm and 16 psi boost i made 364 ft pounds of torque. knock was 1!!. egts were 1150 F pre turbo!
i had an unrelated back pressure problem which should be fixed friday when i get my turbos back w larger turbines.
and also, i agree w classicauto w re to AFR tuning.... tune to normal numbers.
hc
09-13-07, 11:38 AM
#28
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09-13-07, 12:15 PM
#30
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50% pump.... the balance methanol
methanol has significantly less energy in it per volume compared to gasoline.
that's why 100% meth drag cars have such huge fuel systems.
that's particularly not a big negative as you just inject more volume. you gain the advantage of higher octane and:
auto ignition temp of gasoline including racegas is 660F
auto ignition temp of alcohol 858F.
if you remove 50% of base fuel (gasoline) you have to add almost 2X alcohol.
so doing your typical 850/1600 setup.. total delivery at 100% is 4900CC/min.
take 50% out... you're at 2450 CC gas. you'll need around 4000 CC/Min of alcohol. that would be 6 M10 nozzles. that would be 3 pumps each drawing up to 10 amps.
that would be a major tuning issue. if it were done you'd have huge hp and cooling potential along w major engineering issues.
i suggest you do what i have done which is run two M10s and deliver 1260 CC/Min. the last dyno run i did at 5800 rpm and 16 psi boost i made 364 ft pounds of torque. knock was 1!!. egts were 1150 F pre turbo!
i had an unrelated back pressure problem which should be fixed friday when i get my turbos back w larger turbines.
and also, i agree w classicauto w re to AFR tuning.... tune to normal numbers.
hc
methanol has significantly less energy in it per volume compared to gasoline.
that's why 100% meth drag cars have such huge fuel systems.
that's particularly not a big negative as you just inject more volume. you gain the advantage of higher octane and:
auto ignition temp of gasoline including racegas is 660F
auto ignition temp of alcohol 858F.
if you remove 50% of base fuel (gasoline) you have to add almost 2X alcohol.
so doing your typical 850/1600 setup.. total delivery at 100% is 4900CC/min.
take 50% out... you're at 2450 CC gas. you'll need around 4000 CC/Min of alcohol. that would be 6 M10 nozzles. that would be 3 pumps each drawing up to 10 amps.
that would be a major tuning issue. if it were done you'd have huge hp and cooling potential along w major engineering issues.
i suggest you do what i have done which is run two M10s and deliver 1260 CC/Min. the last dyno run i did at 5800 rpm and 16 psi boost i made 364 ft pounds of torque. knock was 1!!. egts were 1150 F pre turbo!
i had an unrelated back pressure problem which should be fixed friday when i get my turbos back w larger turbines.
and also, i agree w classicauto w re to AFR tuning.... tune to normal numbers.
hc
These pumps that you’re using, will they only support two nozzles ? Are the M10’s the biggest the pump will handle ?
What type of power are you hoping/trying for with your setup on pump gas/meth ?
09-13-07, 12:56 PM
#31
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i suggest you call Julio at Alkycontrol. he is one of the best "service" people i have dealt with. he is an electrical engineer and a racer.... running his 3850 pound 231 cu inch turbo'd buick v6 on 93 pump and alcohol into the low 10s at 143.
i run his system and it is plug and play.
the key is he can answer your questions. fl 727-526-9724
howard
i run his system and it is plug and play.
the key is he can answer your questions. fl 727-526-9724
howard
09-13-07, 01:19 PM
#32
Thanks for the info guys.
Has anybody run the setup both ways? I'm interested in seeing the IAT out of boost with and without an intercooler. I have a smaller spearco installed right now with nitrous in the location most spray meth/water at. I'd like to run the most direct path to the intake as possible, but if that will make the car run hot out of boost, it wouldn't be worth it to me. A topmount would be OK if I were on a stock engine, but the 13BRE wouldn't accomodate it too well.
Josh
Has anybody run the setup both ways? I'm interested in seeing the IAT out of boost with and without an intercooler. I have a smaller spearco installed right now with nitrous in the location most spray meth/water at. I'd like to run the most direct path to the intake as possible, but if that will make the car run hot out of boost, it wouldn't be worth it to me. A topmount would be OK if I were on a stock engine, but the 13BRE wouldn't accomodate it too well.
Josh
09-13-07, 01:23 PM
#33
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You are dismissing Howard's experience and wisdom in exchange for popular convention.
My small intercooler engine can be heat-soaked at 65º C and return to mid 30’s in about a mile using 50/50 water/ meth. It cruises high 30’s normally (about 5 degrees over ambient).
Most people give up about 50º C intake air by not having a cold air intake. They then expect their intercooler to correct this loss while sharing heat rejection duties with their radiators.
Barry
My small intercooler engine can be heat-soaked at 65º C and return to mid 30’s in about a mile using 50/50 water/ meth. It cruises high 30’s normally (about 5 degrees over ambient).
Most people give up about 50º C intake air by not having a cold air intake. They then expect their intercooler to correct this loss while sharing heat rejection duties with their radiators.
Barry
I simply misunderstood what Howard was saying. I read (in my head) that an SMIC with duct didn't sacrifice engine cooling. What Howard wrote was that it sacrificed engine cooling less than an FMIC. I agree with that...
My point isn't that the duct takes air from the radiator. My point is that the intercooler duct blocks flow through the back of the radiator. All the air that enters the front has to leave somehow and the duct sitting directly over the half of each fan on the back of the radiator has a way of impeding flow.
Case in point.
My car in 107F ambient temps with a PFS stock mount intercooler would see 60C intake temps when at a steady state cruise (80ish MPH) on our freeway for 15+ minutes straight. My coolant temps would be near 100C in this same situation with the AC on. With the AC off the coolant temp would be around 97C. With the new mounting position of the radiator and the intercooler and duct removed, my car does not see above 87C coolant temps as noted in the same exact scenario on a hotter day 110F. Only thing that changed was the intecooler and duct was removed. Radiator was in the same position as stock with the same stock ducting. Oil temps came down 12C from about 100C to around 88C
Since the intercooler is gone we can more efficiently mount the radiator and this cools the engine even better. I will have more data as I get more miles. I just wanted to share. I think what I was saying was a little misunderstood. I dont think anyone can argue that the duct to the intercooler blocks the back of the radiator.
Barry Bordes:
I had almost an identical setup to you when I was running intercooled. The reason why your heat soaked intake temps come down so fast is because of the AI not the intecooler.
Without AI my intecooler on hot days would heat soak to the point where I was seeing near 80C intake temps while sitting in traffic (105-110F ambient). The filter was heat shielded as best I could, but it just wasn't possible to pull cool air.
With the radiator moved I can now have a true COLD AIR intake. When sitting in traffic my IAT is about 8C over ambient... about 50C, with no intercooler. As the boost builds the AI kicks in and my IAT goes below ambient. At 15psi during a 43C day my IAT got to 32C. Precompressor water/meth is amazing at reducing IAT. The methanol in my mix takes the heat out of the intake charge like an intercooler would, and the water is my detonation surpressant. I have the best of both worlds. A very small precompressor jet with great atomization and a much larger jet aimed right at the throttle body. I have about 700cc/min of total possible flow through my two nozzles.
Steve Kan raised a good point that I am relying on it not to fail, but with the Aquamist failsafe and DDS3 gauge I feel like I am somewhat protected and well informed of flow. If a line leaks or my pump reduces pressure, I know, if my tank is low, I know. If a nozzle is clogged partially, I know... So I feel like I am as safe as I can be with the setup I have put together. If my WA fails I can still limp home in vacuum up to 2-3 psi with IAT not getting out of control.
As I get more data from driving I will continue to post.
I also wanted to say that to do this right it isn't cheap. My Aquamist setup is a little over $1000 when all is said an done, and removing the intercooler, relocating the radiator, thermostat housing, installing a cold air intake, and fabricating the proper ducting is also costing me 4 figures $. So I could easily have a decent V mount setup...
But I like new and unproven things, that is when you are really having fun!
09-13-07, 01:32 PM
#34
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i suggest you call Julio at Alkycontrol. he is one of the best "service" people i have dealt with. he is an electrical engineer and a racer.... running his 3850 pound 231 cu inch turbo'd buick v6 on 93 pump and alcohol into the low 10s at 143.
i run his system and it is plug and play.
the key is he can answer your questions. fl 727-526-9724
howard
i run his system and it is plug and play.
the key is he can answer your questions. fl 727-526-9724
howard
I'll be staying far away from the Ausrotary forum. I can't beleive the responses I was getting over there.
You think only the French dont like America..... You can't even understand the world hates America, get your head around that, and then try understand water injection dude
Rice paper, save your breath dude, you will never be able to educate an American, they are experts in every field at birth...
09-13-07, 01:36 PM
#35
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I am running a T04E 57trim turbo with a P-trim turbine and a 1.15A/R T4 exhaust housing...this goes into a 3.5" dp and 3.5" midpipe. Just so everyone knows my turbo setup. Again it is flying the face of popular convention. What we are trying to accomplish is to show people that proper sized turbines have as much impact on power as the compressor. Most on this forum oversize the compressor and undersize the turbine.
09-13-07, 02:01 PM
#36
BDC Motorsports
I am running a T04E 57trim turbo with a P-trim turbine and a 1.15A/R T4 exhaust housing...this goes into a 3.5" dp and 3.5" midpipe. Just so everyone knows my turbo setup. Again it is flying the face of popular convention. What we are trying to accomplish is to show people that proper sized turbines have as much impact on power as the compressor. Most on this forum oversize the compressor and undersize the turbine.
B
09-13-07, 02:09 PM
#38
Cozmo, isn't your pre-turbo injectioon also modifiying your compressor's capability? I have a thread in this section with a link to an extremely detailed post about pre-turbo injections effects on compressor dynamics. Basically makes it act like a larger compressor due to the cooling, and the lack of compression of the liquid.
Might be getting a little off topic, but thought I would toss it out there.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/vie...7db7b268de2a41
Its a good read.
Might be getting a little off topic, but thought I would toss it out there.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/vie...7db7b268de2a41
Its a good read.
09-13-07, 02:15 PM
#39
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I have already read that entire thread ...and you are right, the precompressor injection does make my compressor act larger than it is. I would really like to post in there after I have some definate conclusions. There is a lot of theory in there and a lit less real world applied data collection, especially with the kit I have (HFS-5).
...and you are right, the precompressor injection does make my compressor act larger than it is. I would really like to post in there after I have some definate conclusions. There is a lot of theory in there and a lit less real world applied data collection, especially with the kit I have (HFS-5).
09-13-07, 02:29 PM
#40
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I have already read that entire thread ...and you are right, the precompressor injection does make my compressor act larger than it is. I would really like to post in there after I have some definate conclusions. There is a lot of theory in there and a lit less real world applied data collection, especially with the kit I have (HFS-5).
...and you are right, the precompressor injection does make my compressor act larger than it is. I would really like to post in there after I have some definate conclusions. There is a lot of theory in there and a lit less real world applied data collection, especially with the kit I have (HFS-5).Also, do you have any pictures of where you're injecting pre-turbo ?
Last edited by Viking War Hammer; 09-13-07 at 02:36 PM.
09-13-07, 02:39 PM
#42
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I had thought about the same thing, have a seperate fuel rail for direct port alcohol injection controlled by your ecu or an aftermarket injector controller. This way "seems" more professional than the current methods of AI.
09-13-07, 03:11 PM
#43
That 20B FB you posted a pic of has a full fuel rail setup on his UIM in some of the later pics posted on the ausrotary thread. I believe they're meth also seeing as his pre-compressor meth injection comes from "real" fuel injectors as well.
I would think that with no water either, you won't have the corrosion issues so a "real" injection setup is much more feasible since special pumps/regulators/injectors aren't required.........correct?
I would think that with no water either, you won't have the corrosion issues so a "real" injection setup is much more feasible since special pumps/regulators/injectors aren't required.........correct?
09-13-07, 03:19 PM
#44
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That 20B FB you posted a pic of has a full fuel rail setup on his UIM in some of the later pics posted on the ausrotary thread. I believe they're meth also seeing as his pre-compressor meth injection comes from "real" fuel injectors as well.
I would think that with no water either, you won't have the corrosion issues so a "real" injection setup is much more feasible since special pumps/regulators/injectors aren't required.........correct?
I would think that with no water either, you won't have the corrosion issues so a "real" injection setup is much more feasible since special pumps/regulators/injectors aren't required.........correct?
09-13-07, 03:29 PM
#45
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You must make sure you have very small droplet size (ie. good atomization), and you shouldn't flow a large amount of fluid precompressor, which is why I run two jets. A very small 0.3mm jet pre and a much larger 0.9mm jet in the elbow.
The .3mm jet has a max flow of 150cc so it isn't in any danger of damaging the compressor. If I was injecting all of my AI precompressor I might have to worry.
09-13-07, 04:04 PM
#46
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
Cozmo, didn't mean for you to be offended by "conventional wisdom" remark, sorry.
One reason our SMIC get so hot at idle is that they become inter-heater by creating a low pressure area in the grill and high pressure area in the engine compartment so the flow reverses when stopped, regurgitating radiator air. My PFS IC drops about a degree per tenth mile after a stop.
Did you notice the line going into the air box next to the relay box? Pre-turbo 300cc nozzle in the end of a 9" K&N. Did experiments with it but not going to use it till 18 psi. You probably already know why.
Barry
One reason our SMIC get so hot at idle is that they become inter-heater by creating a low pressure area in the grill and high pressure area in the engine compartment so the flow reverses when stopped, regurgitating radiator air. My PFS IC drops about a degree per tenth mile after a stop.
Did you notice the line going into the air box next to the relay box? Pre-turbo 300cc nozzle in the end of a 9" K&N. Did experiments with it but not going to use it till 18 psi. You probably already know why.
Barry
09-13-07, 04:08 PM
#47
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Cozmo, didn't mean for you to be offended by "conventional wisdom" remark, sorry.
One reason our SMIC get so hot at idle is that they become inter-heater by creating a low pressure area in the grill and high pressure area in the engine compartment so the flow reverses when stopped, regurgitating radiator air. My PFS IC drops about a degree per tenth mile after a stop.
Did you notice the line going into the air box next to the relay box? Pre-turbo 300cc nozzle in the end of a 9" K&N. Did experiments with it but not going to use it till 18 psi. You probably already know why.
Barry
One reason our SMIC get so hot at idle is that they become inter-heater by creating a low pressure area in the grill and high pressure area in the engine compartment so the flow reverses when stopped, regurgitating radiator air. My PFS IC drops about a degree per tenth mile after a stop.
Did you notice the line going into the air box next to the relay box? Pre-turbo 300cc nozzle in the end of a 9" K&N. Did experiments with it but not going to use it till 18 psi. You probably already know why.
Barry
09-13-07, 05:38 PM
#48
I will let you know in a few weeks. I have the Aquamist HFS-5 with water/methanol injection precompressor and right before the throttle body. I was seeing such high intake temps precompressor with the intercooler on there, with a lack of flow through the radiator (that the SMIC promotes), that I decided it best to just see what non-intercooled (or chemically intercooled) would do. I will have a completely ducted, verticle radiator with no obstructions to the front or back. Along with this a cold air intake for the compressor inlet that pulls air from in front of the radiator. I will see AT LEAST A 60 degree F improvement in air coming into the compressor...if not below ambient with the precompressor water/alcohol injection (I am running a 50/50 mix). The pre throttle body jet should take care of the heat.
Preliminary testing revealed 3 degrees C above ambient intake temps without the intercooler and dual jet water/alcohol injection. I bet we can improve on that...
I figure we can solve the cooling issues of the car and get better boost response without taxing the turbo as much...win/win/win...we will see how the intake temps sort out.
It will be fun! Stay tuned....
Preliminary testing revealed 3 degrees C above ambient intake temps without the intercooler and dual jet water/alcohol injection. I bet we can improve on that...
I figure we can solve the cooling issues of the car and get better boost response without taxing the turbo as much...win/win/win...we will see how the intake temps sort out.
It will be fun! Stay tuned....
This has cross my mind before, and I plan on testing it when my FC is ready
09-13-07, 06:37 PM
#49
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
Pre Turbo Nozzle
Is your pre-turbo injection spraying through the filter or between the filter and turbo ?
Through the closed end of the filter. See attached.
Through the closed end of the filter. See attached.
09-13-07, 06:44 PM
#50
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