Is running NON-INTERCOOLED an option ?
 

Has anyone tried running non-intercooler with Meth-Injection ?

I found this cat who pulled his intercooler off and is running Methanol Injection with good results (It seems).

What's everyone think ?

Here is a thread about his car.

http://www.performanceforums.com/for...php?t=67187143

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/DSCN0973.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/DSCN0970.jpg

I will let you know in a few weeks. I have the Aquamist HFS-5 with water/methanol injection precompressor and right before the throttle body. I was seeing such high intake temps precompressor with the intercooler on there, with a lack of flow through the radiator (that the SMIC promotes), that I decided it best to just see what non-intercooled (or chemically intercooled) would do. I will have a completely ducted, verticle radiator with no obstructions to the front or back. Along with this a cold air intake for the compressor inlet that pulls air from in front of the radiator. I will see AT LEAST A 60 degree F improvement in air coming into the compressor...if not below ambient with the precompressor water/alcohol injection (I am running a 50/50 mix). The pre throttle body jet should take care of the heat.

Preliminary testing revealed 3 degrees C above ambient intake temps without the intercooler and dual jet water/alcohol injection. I bet we can improve on that... :)

I figure we can solve the cooling issues of the car and get better boost response without taxing the turbo as much...win/win/win...we will see how the intake temps sort out.

It will be fun! Stay tuned....

I am going to repost this in the single turbo section...it will get more traffic there. The content is very interesting to me, so I kinda want to hear what people think.

i like what your doing with that inj kit.
Very nice results. It definetly is a win/win... except having to fill up yet another fluid

I'll be following suit with mine...
just sold my large v-mount set up...

Awesome, go ahead and re-post it. I'm going to sell my intercooler as well and run my setup like the picture above.

Im looking to do this too. Anyone have info on best nozzle placement? Any other tips for non-intercooled?

This setup ran denatured alky/water @ 50/50 mix.

Car was loads of fun to drive, hauled ass. No pre-turbo injection, just pre TB.

Ran an aquamist HFS 5.... Single M15 equivalent nozzle.

BTW, its a stock S4 turbo @ 12psi - so you know that intake temps were far from cool to begin with :) Only downfall was we ran a distributor and a simple SDS fuel management for the extra fuel......................so no logging of actual intake temps :(

That's a pretty cool little setup there. I'm running a semi-large frame turbo so I'm not sure if this would be ideal for me. I'm looking to put down over 600 to the pavement with pump/injection so I might just need a intercooler.

I've done alot of searching here and ausrotary but can't find any "real" results.

I think it'll work fine on a large turbo setup, it just needs to be scaled up accordingly. But yeah, real world examples might be few and far between on a big number setup, save for a few big drag cars. I see alot of setups like this on boinger drag vechiles however (chemical intercooling only)

just a few thoughts...

it depends alot on how you plan to use the car. often people underestimate the amount of heat rejection from the IC just driving around.... it works all the time. this is a plus for the IC'd motor. 24/7

a comment above related to improving water temps w the removal of the FMIC. i know there have been millions of pages re FMIC V SMIC but if you run your IC in the stock position you can have it all. heat rejection thru the IC and cool water temps.

finally, as to alcohol, i am sure you probably know that drag guys running straight meth generally don't run ICs (drag only cars). at the end of a run you wouldn't want to put your hand on the UIM or it could get FROZEN to the aluminum.

for me, running 75% pump and 25% meth, after a dyno run my UIM is COLD.

hc

three rotor in a first gen with 7-8 inch wide rims in rear.......that guy is mentally ill. I love it.

The car is going to be a weekend driver but I'll also run local 10.5 events as well.


The one thing I worry about is the intake temps when I'm just putting around town. I'm sure they'll be sky high until I hit the loud pedal.


Right, I know straight alcohol guys run without intercoolers. I've just seen some guys on www.turbomustangs.com make big power with meth injection/pump gas without a intercooler. But, since those are completely different animals.......... we can't really compare the two. :confused:

Intercooled or not, I'm going to run meth injection.


Why aren't you guys running straight meth injection ?

This simply isn't true. The duct for the SMIC blocks flow through nearly half of the back of the radiator. Whether you put something directly in front of or directly behind, it is still impeeding flow. In my car with the duct removed there is a SUBSTANTIAL difference in engine cooling, and this is probably so dramatically noticeable to me because ambient temps in my area consistently exceed 110F.

If you are just putting around in vacuum why would you have sky high intake temps? The act of a turbocharger's compression is what generates heat, if it isn't creating positive pressure then there is no 'substantial' increase in heat. With the intercooler removed we have more options for intake placement and so we can get very cool ambient temp air to the filter dramatically decreasing pre-compressor temps (vs. the standard filter mounted to the compressor housing, sucking off the back of the radiator we see all the time.) My car has seen a REDUCTION in vacuum IAT ... when boost reaches 2-3PSI the W/A has started spraying somewhat (tied into injector duty cycle) and IAT remains constant as boost build ultimately reducing considerably when peak boost is reached.

Well, see there you go. I was wrong by saying "Sky High Temps". I simply don't know since I haven't tried this.

From your results, it seems like this would work. Don't remember if I asked you before but, what were your intake temps at lets say 8 psi and 15 psi ?

Also, a question for everyone. Why couldn't one run 50% Meth/50% Pump Gas instead of the common 20/80 mix ?

I see no reason not to run a 50/50 mix...as long as you have enough pump and enough nozzle to allow it. Tuning in a transition will be far different from a smaller mix since the meth will come on earlier and be a much higher volume in that case however. But still definetly doable IMO.

You're going to get better cooling with more meth, so go for it.

So, with a 50 Meth/50 Pump Gas combo, would that make your motor run too fat ? Or, would you just need to run a ridiculous ignition system to fire that much meth ?

I wouldn't say it would run fat, its just that you'd need to trim back your fuel even further then with a 80/20 mix in order to achieve the ideal mix. Your fuel maps will bascially be inverted to what you've got now under boost :). The meth would be making up for the areas you remove from the map.......Meth will still burn with a similar (enough) AFR to gasoline, so no big surprises there either.

I'd say for sure at that high a power level you're going to want a beefy ignition, especially with a high meth concentration.

So, I should still shoot for the normal pump gas AFR's with 50% Meth/50% Pump Fuel ?

Since I'll be spraying more methanol than usuall, would it be a good idea to mount the nozzles at an angle so that it doesn't pool in the pipe ?

One more question, based on the picture I posted above. Where would be the ideal place to mount the nozzles ?

Thanks for the replies, it's nice to have someone who's willing to have a conversation with me about this :)

Whatever you do, don't make a post on www.ausrotary.com or you'll be attacked for being an american.

http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?t=138645

What controller are you all using for the AI flow curve? Is it pretty simple to get an accurate 20% mix of alcohol to gasoline? I ordered a Vari-Cool trunk mount under the impression that it is tuneable like fuel injection.

Also, is it essential to have EGT with the AI or should I just tune to normal AFR's replacing the 20% (assuming timing is not advanced too much boosting 24 lbs).

As far as nozzle placement, I've seen people put the nozzles close to or far away from the throttle body. As long as the fuel atomizes you are fine. Even port injection is fine. It is generally accepted to post after the intercooler if you are using one to prevent pooling.

Josh

I don't remember who it was(BC maybe?), but somebody did a good writeup on how a wideband works. Basically the wideband reads in lambda, when lambda=1, mixture is stoich, no matter the fuel. That being said the software in the gauge knows that if lambda=1 and it thinks the fuel is gasoline (14.7:1 stoich) then if lambda=1 must =14.7:1 ratio. If it were programmed for ethanol(9.0:1 stoich) then if lambda=1 the gauge will show 9.0:1 ratios, even if gasoline is used and running stoichiometric for gasoline.

At least IIRC that was the explanation. lol:scared:

did that guy ever say why his motor blew? he mentions something about how he shouldn't have "re-invented the wheel". to me it sounds like he is referring to the no intercooler setup possibly.

i personally run water injection and was thinking of not using an intercooler but for a car that sees the street a lot i just don't know if that's a safe enough route.

It blew because the e-shaft broke...that is what I gathered from reading the thread. I dont believe it was detonation (or water injection related).

These are his words, "It turned out to be the keyway shearing between the 2 part eccentric shaft."

That guy is nuts though... here is the turbo he was running (on the right) compared to a GT45R (the little guy on the left)...

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/th...w/DSCN1219.JPG

You are dismissing Howard's experience and wisdom in exchange for popular convention.

My small intercooler engine can be heat-soaked at 65º C and return to mid 30’s in about a mile using 50/50 water/ meth. It cruises high 30’s normally (about 5 degrees over ambient).

Most people give up about 50º C intake air by not having a cold air intake. They then expect their intercooler to correct this loss while sharing heat rejection duties with their radiators.
Barry

this is a pretty good thread... lots of good questions and contributions.

given the FD is a rolling oven i personally would go w a SMIC and AI. (AI being Auxiliary Injection which covers both water and alcohol....you take your pick).

i believe that there are many times that the IC removes heat from the motor in addition to under boost. Barry mentions how quickly his IAT returns to ambient, or thereabouts, after a run. IC are near magic. my ASP large takes 130 degrees out of the intake charge. every degree removed from the intake tract is a positive.

ICs are somewhat misunderstood however in that there heat disposal comes not as much from airspeed thru the radiator rather the massive amount of surface area and radiation. area would primarily refer to each fin's total surface area. can you imagine how large the total area of all the fins is on an IC?

at 60 mph the airspeed thru my ASP large IC is between 1.5 and 3 mph. with my louvers it doubled to 5-6 mph. IAT dropped 7% w louvers.

as to Cosmo's point about the IC duct taking air from the radiator.... sure. we all know about the mazda studies. in my earlier post perhaps i wasn't clear. i wasn't trying to say there would be no diff if you removed the IC duct. i was saying that w re to the radiator it would be better for coolant temps to run a SMIC V a FMIC.

i completely agree that sucking eng compartment air is totally evil. especially under boost where the IC is throwing off so many BTUs into the engine compartment. i see so many engine compartments w a huge turbo w either no filter (?) on it or a filter attached to the turbo which will be sucking hot air. job 1 is get outside air into your turbo. you can run a SMIC and get outside air w a bit of engineering. win win.

BTW, like Vtec, the 1st gen w the 20B.... the first thing i noticed was the tires. there's nothing like doing all that work and running 300 rwhp tires. of course he may just run it on the strip and bolt on more rubber or it may just be a work in progress.

back to the no intercooler subject...

first off:
hp is all about packing maximum density into your combustion chamber. the cooler your intake charge is the more oxygen molecules you will be able to burn. ICs do a fabulous job.

so does any form of AI.

can you get alot of cooling w just AI? sure. can you get more cooling, more density, more oxygen w the addition of another 130 degrees of cooling w an IC? absolutely.

heat is a big deal in making hp, especially the rotary. i listen to anyone from Arizona when they talk about heat. it will be interesting to see how Cosmo fares running just AI.

the thread has raised a few other questions.

nozzle placement & sizing.
the AI section is designed w a number of stickied threads to assist you...

nozzle sizing (both water and alcohol) is covered here:
AI Nozzle/jet/delivery sizing
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/ai-nozzle-jet-delivery-sizing-587197/

optimised component location here:
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/optimized-ai-alcohol-system-component-location-fd-586925/

pictures here:
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/pictures-my-alkycontrol-ai-system-install-593216/
don't miss post 5.

as to the question of water/alcohol/or a mix.... each option has plusses and minuses. the AI section is agnostic. all 3 options work very well.

discussions re which is best degenerate quickly into the ranchers and the sheepherders.

my advice is to decide exactly what your objectives are as to vehicle usage, talk to people using AI for your purposes and make your own decision.

i run 100% methanol w pump gas and it works for me. 100% water works for others.

the single irrefutable fact is that running no AI is THE single wrong decision.

whether it is 20+ psi with no knock on 93 octane or cooling your motor as you flog it around Road America's 4 mile laps AI delivers.

howard coleman