FJO 2ND Gen AI and interfacing Wide Band Install and tune thread
11-06-07, 09:11 PM
#1
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FJO 2ND Gen AI and interfacing Wide Band Install and tune thread
i expect my 2ND Gen FJO AI and Wide Band system to arrive friday, Nov 9. this will be one of the first in consumer hands and i have been holding off on my last (20-23 psi) dyno session in order to evaluate it.
it sure looks good on paper.
it will run two High Speed Valve (solenoids) that deliver 1400 CC/Min of Methanol. that's up slightly from my two M10 Alkycontrol nozzles at 1260.
i am very excited about being able to set the exact amount of alcohol i want on an X-Y Grid w boost and RPM as parameters.
set it exactly.
set it at any delivery rate at any RPM at a constant boost level....
something i couldn't do w the "progressive" PWM pump setup.
here is the grid from the FJO first gen AI model to give you an idea... the cell entries are % of full delivery.
here is what i have worked up for my setup using my Power FC. while the FJO grid is 16 X 16 and the PFC is 20 X 20 keep in mind that AI is only being used in the boost section so there is actually more definition than the PFC offers.
my twin TO4 setup should reach max airflow, around 80+ pounds per minute, between 17 and 23 psi so my grid is set accordingly. peak torque is denoted by the orange twin column between 6 and 6400 RPM. that's where you want max meth delivery and then tail it off as you reduce fuel.
you can't do that w a progressive system.
there are many inputs (TPS, Boost, RPM, AFR, injector duty cycle to name a few) each of which is tunable and each can trigger outputs such as reversion to wastegate spring boost pressure, fuel cut, multiple maps etc, etc.
the 2nd Gen FJO AI system has it's own 4 bar MAP sensor and boost control complete w solenoid. anyone interested in an Apexi AVCR?
like all FJO components the AI system is designed to actively interface with other FJO systems.
i am installing FJO's new WideBand. the WB can input to the AI system and trigger outputs (safeguards) if at a given TPS and AFR things fall outside of your stipulated settings.
other AI companies, Aquamist and Coolingmist already offer Solenoid systems. they are the forward AI architecture.
consider:
you are tracking your FD and you are on and off the throttle in a corner but mainly on the gas. as you modulate the throttle the boost dives down and back up. the progressive system following your boost doesn't have a chance matching delivery as the pump mass and mechanical drag just can't keep up. sort of like a 49 Buick running w your FD on a road course.
the High Speed Valve or Solenoid or call it what it really is.... a Fuel Injector can.
the pump just maintains a constant pressure and the VALVE opens and closes like your fuel injector to vary the delivery based on what cell you are in. to the Ms.
WOW.
i talked w Julio at Alkycontrol about this a year ago. Julio is an Electrical Engineer and Racer as well as proprietor of Alkycontrol. i think he makes the best progressive system on the market. it hasn't let me down over two seasons.
his answer was.... we don't really care about the on-off stuff we are primarily drag racers. right then and there i resolved to take my AI system up to the Cell by Cell High Speed Solenoid setup.
so starts the process. i will post pictures of the install and will of course follow up w a complete dyno report.
there is a writeup on the unit in the just-on-the-newstands Turbo (Jan) Mag BTW.
i will also be using FJO's neat cheap SS .5 to 4.5 V pressure and temperature sensors. i plan to add oil pressure and oil temperature to my current digitally logged fuel pressure, exhaust back pressure and 2 pre turbo EGTs.
just a final comment on FJO... located in Winnepeg, originally created electrical products for a number of Aerospace companies which must remain nameless though one is located in the state of Washington and makes lots of airplanes.
all built to Military Specifications. bombproof. the company appears to be heavy on product and perhaps light on marketing. i have no problem w that. they are car guys and have an inhouse pump/meth camaro making over 1200 to the wheels.
and are becoming quite interested in the rotary. they do make a neat EMS. hmmm. FJORacing.com
stay tuned,
howard coleman
it sure looks good on paper.
it will run two High Speed Valve (solenoids) that deliver 1400 CC/Min of Methanol. that's up slightly from my two M10 Alkycontrol nozzles at 1260.
i am very excited about being able to set the exact amount of alcohol i want on an X-Y Grid w boost and RPM as parameters.
set it exactly.
set it at any delivery rate at any RPM at a constant boost level....
something i couldn't do w the "progressive" PWM pump setup.
here is the grid from the FJO first gen AI model to give you an idea... the cell entries are % of full delivery.
here is what i have worked up for my setup using my Power FC. while the FJO grid is 16 X 16 and the PFC is 20 X 20 keep in mind that AI is only being used in the boost section so there is actually more definition than the PFC offers.
my twin TO4 setup should reach max airflow, around 80+ pounds per minute, between 17 and 23 psi so my grid is set accordingly. peak torque is denoted by the orange twin column between 6 and 6400 RPM. that's where you want max meth delivery and then tail it off as you reduce fuel.
you can't do that w a progressive system.
there are many inputs (TPS, Boost, RPM, AFR, injector duty cycle to name a few) each of which is tunable and each can trigger outputs such as reversion to wastegate spring boost pressure, fuel cut, multiple maps etc, etc.
the 2nd Gen FJO AI system has it's own 4 bar MAP sensor and boost control complete w solenoid. anyone interested in an Apexi AVCR?
like all FJO components the AI system is designed to actively interface with other FJO systems.
i am installing FJO's new WideBand. the WB can input to the AI system and trigger outputs (safeguards) if at a given TPS and AFR things fall outside of your stipulated settings.
other AI companies, Aquamist and Coolingmist already offer Solenoid systems. they are the forward AI architecture.
consider:
you are tracking your FD and you are on and off the throttle in a corner but mainly on the gas. as you modulate the throttle the boost dives down and back up. the progressive system following your boost doesn't have a chance matching delivery as the pump mass and mechanical drag just can't keep up. sort of like a 49 Buick running w your FD on a road course.
the High Speed Valve or Solenoid or call it what it really is.... a Fuel Injector can.
the pump just maintains a constant pressure and the VALVE opens and closes like your fuel injector to vary the delivery based on what cell you are in. to the Ms.
WOW.
i talked w Julio at Alkycontrol about this a year ago. Julio is an Electrical Engineer and Racer as well as proprietor of Alkycontrol. i think he makes the best progressive system on the market. it hasn't let me down over two seasons.
his answer was.... we don't really care about the on-off stuff we are primarily drag racers. right then and there i resolved to take my AI system up to the Cell by Cell High Speed Solenoid setup.
so starts the process. i will post pictures of the install and will of course follow up w a complete dyno report.
there is a writeup on the unit in the just-on-the-newstands Turbo (Jan) Mag BTW.
i will also be using FJO's neat cheap SS .5 to 4.5 V pressure and temperature sensors. i plan to add oil pressure and oil temperature to my current digitally logged fuel pressure, exhaust back pressure and 2 pre turbo EGTs.
just a final comment on FJO... located in Winnepeg, originally created electrical products for a number of Aerospace companies which must remain nameless though one is located in the state of Washington and makes lots of airplanes.
all built to Military Specifications. bombproof. the company appears to be heavy on product and perhaps light on marketing. i have no problem w that. they are car guys and have an inhouse pump/meth camaro making over 1200 to the wheels.
and are becoming quite interested in the rotary. they do make a neat EMS. hmmm. FJORacing.com
stay tuned,
howard coleman
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 11-13-07 at 08:00 PM.
11-07-07, 01:49 AM
#2
Props to FJO for providing the aftermarket auxillary injection users with a 2d mapable kit based on rpm vs boost something only available from some standalone ECU's. Should make for some interesting results.
Good luck Howard. Now you're going to really see the benefits of runnig with methanol. Hope you can handle all that extra power.
The BTU's of gasolene with the cooling properties of methanol. The perfect combination. Kinda like the results I've been seeing lately with corn fuel!
Good luck Howard. Now you're going to really see the benefits of runnig with methanol. Hope you can handle all that extra power.
The BTU's of gasolene with the cooling properties of methanol. The perfect combination. Kinda like the results I've been seeing lately with corn fuel!
11-08-07, 05:41 PM
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Howard,
Can you elaborate a little on FJO's Valve based kit, more-over how the controller interfaces with the valve. I have never known anyone that owns the kit, so there is not alot of information about it.
Someone on another forum implied that the solenoid appears to be a standard on/off solenoid rather than a PWM option. I have no knowlege of how it works and would be interested to know.
I know of 3 ways that a HSV can work.
#1 On/Off time. Simply open the valve for a number of milliseconds, etc.
#2 Open to a specific position on a proportional basis.
#3 Dutycycle based. Average the flow based on the amount of current going to the valve.
I am a fan of #2 and #3.
Can you elaborate? I think alot of people would like to know as performance characteristics of the 3 can vary, particulary the smoothness of the spray.
CM
Can you elaborate a little on FJO's Valve based kit, more-over how the controller interfaces with the valve. I have never known anyone that owns the kit, so there is not alot of information about it.
Someone on another forum implied that the solenoid appears to be a standard on/off solenoid rather than a PWM option. I have no knowlege of how it works and would be interested to know.
I know of 3 ways that a HSV can work.
#1 On/Off time. Simply open the valve for a number of milliseconds, etc.
#2 Open to a specific position on a proportional basis.
#3 Dutycycle based. Average the flow based on the amount of current going to the valve.
I am a fan of #2 and #3.
Can you elaborate? I think alot of people would like to know as performance characteristics of the 3 can vary, particulary the smoothness of the spray.
CM
11-11-07, 08:51 AM
#4
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i received my FJO package friday and am deep into installation at the moment...
here's what arrived.
i am initially amazed at how compact the control modules are. notice the sparkplug resting near the wideband module.
further, the AI system INCLUDES a boost control system. the boost controller, as well as the AI system, has a cell by cell tuning feature and all the usual bells and whistles along w a 4 bar MAP sensor and wastegate solenoid controller.. boost map shifting too.
along w boost the AI system includes a pump line pressure sensor and you can input what you wish versus TPS for example and shut various things down due to pressure loss.
i also love the FJO pressure sensors. i plan to replace my Honeywell sensors and add loggable oil pressure etc..
it has been a job removing my Alkycontrol system, my AVCR, my Techedge wideband but i hope to be close to completion by monday. i probably will relocate my AI input (was two M10 Alkycontrol nozzles will be tw0 700 CC/Min FJO Solenoids) from the silicone coupler to the elbow so that might be a couple of days as i don't weld cast aluminum...
hopefully i might be on the dyno next sunday...
meantime it is back to work.
oh, FJO responded re the question raised in post 3....
"Hi Howard,
You'll have to forgive me if I do not go into too great a detail describing the inner workings of our system but we have a lot of engineering and testing invested in the design. Basically the system is designed to address a few key issues.
- atomization of the liquid
- precise control and repeatable performance of the spray volume
- uniform dispersion
- responsiveness to a change in demand
- cost vs. value
The test liquid we used was water since it presented the more difficult challenge since methanol evaporates more easily.
Our system atomizes water to better than a 60 micron droplet size regardless of the volume sprayed. It does this by using a combination of a special nozzle, a solenoid, a high pressure pump and a sophisticated digital controller. All nozzles rely on pressure to atomize effectively and therefore using a valve to control flow was not an option. A valve by its design is a restriction and causes a pressure drop which has a very negative effect on atomization. Use a garden hose as an example, as you close the tap the nozzle spray begins to turn into a dribble. In your intake this means the water begins to run down the inside instead of being atomized and getting evenly dispersed. Poor atomization makes it more difficult to evaporate and means that you do not get the maximum cooling effect. Another popular flow control method is to vary the speed of the pump to change the pressure. The same problem arises with this method, plus you have the inertial mass of the pump which really limits your responsiveness. It is for this reason that we chose to use a solenoid. The next big challenge was to get precise/repeatable control of the spray volume without compromising on uniform dispersion. This is where the engineers started to mumble things like intake charge velocity , water droplet velocity vectors, etc etc. which ultimately led them to the nozzle, solenoid, and electronics design that we have today. The microprocessor and integrated features of the controller allows it to quickly change the spray volume based on the demand. The user can easily program the box and tell it how it should respond. Because the system uses a solenoid to adjust the spray volume, it can go as low as 10% of its rated volume and still atomize as well as when it is operating at 100%. This gives our system the ability to adjust quickly and over a wider range than other systems, which ultimately means more precise control - which means max performance. Finally, cost vs. value - that's something we leave up to the consumer.
I hope that answers some of the questions.
FJO"
here's what arrived.
i am initially amazed at how compact the control modules are. notice the sparkplug resting near the wideband module.
further, the AI system INCLUDES a boost control system. the boost controller, as well as the AI system, has a cell by cell tuning feature and all the usual bells and whistles along w a 4 bar MAP sensor and wastegate solenoid controller.. boost map shifting too.
along w boost the AI system includes a pump line pressure sensor and you can input what you wish versus TPS for example and shut various things down due to pressure loss.
i also love the FJO pressure sensors. i plan to replace my Honeywell sensors and add loggable oil pressure etc..
it has been a job removing my Alkycontrol system, my AVCR, my Techedge wideband but i hope to be close to completion by monday. i probably will relocate my AI input (was two M10 Alkycontrol nozzles will be tw0 700 CC/Min FJO Solenoids) from the silicone coupler to the elbow so that might be a couple of days as i don't weld cast aluminum...
hopefully i might be on the dyno next sunday...
meantime it is back to work.
oh, FJO responded re the question raised in post 3....
"Hi Howard,
You'll have to forgive me if I do not go into too great a detail describing the inner workings of our system but we have a lot of engineering and testing invested in the design. Basically the system is designed to address a few key issues.
- atomization of the liquid
- precise control and repeatable performance of the spray volume
- uniform dispersion
- responsiveness to a change in demand
- cost vs. value
The test liquid we used was water since it presented the more difficult challenge since methanol evaporates more easily.
Our system atomizes water to better than a 60 micron droplet size regardless of the volume sprayed. It does this by using a combination of a special nozzle, a solenoid, a high pressure pump and a sophisticated digital controller. All nozzles rely on pressure to atomize effectively and therefore using a valve to control flow was not an option. A valve by its design is a restriction and causes a pressure drop which has a very negative effect on atomization. Use a garden hose as an example, as you close the tap the nozzle spray begins to turn into a dribble. In your intake this means the water begins to run down the inside instead of being atomized and getting evenly dispersed. Poor atomization makes it more difficult to evaporate and means that you do not get the maximum cooling effect. Another popular flow control method is to vary the speed of the pump to change the pressure. The same problem arises with this method, plus you have the inertial mass of the pump which really limits your responsiveness. It is for this reason that we chose to use a solenoid. The next big challenge was to get precise/repeatable control of the spray volume without compromising on uniform dispersion. This is where the engineers started to mumble things like intake charge velocity , water droplet velocity vectors, etc etc. which ultimately led them to the nozzle, solenoid, and electronics design that we have today. The microprocessor and integrated features of the controller allows it to quickly change the spray volume based on the demand. The user can easily program the box and tell it how it should respond. Because the system uses a solenoid to adjust the spray volume, it can go as low as 10% of its rated volume and still atomize as well as when it is operating at 100%. This gives our system the ability to adjust quickly and over a wider range than other systems, which ultimately means more precise control - which means max performance. Finally, cost vs. value - that's something we leave up to the consumer.
I hope that answers some of the questions.
FJO"
11-11-07, 09:11 AM
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based on what I read they are likely doing option #1 "on time" "off time'. Turn the solenoid on for a number of MS and then off. Clearly, solenoid controlled, however I will not refer to it as a HSV style system until I learn more.
Keep us informed of how it works. You will find have a digital controller is 1,000 times better than an analog.
I would be interested to see a video of running the system from its lowest GPH to its MAX (like running from 30% dutycycle to 100%) and see how smooth the flow increase is. Should be very interesting.
David
Keep us informed of how it works. You will find have a digital controller is 1,000 times better than an analog.
I would be interested to see a video of running the system from its lowest GPH to its MAX (like running from 30% dutycycle to 100%) and see how smooth the flow increase is. Should be very interesting.
David
11-12-07, 12:03 PM
#6
www.silverbulletrx7.com
This looks great and is clearly one of the best options out there. Their website could use some help though to match how innovative their products are. I initially passed FJO over because their site didn't clearly communicate to me what type of kit I could get from them, what would be included and at what price.
11-13-07, 01:10 PM
#7
based on what I read they are likely doing option #1 "on time" "off time'. Turn the solenoid on for a number of MS and then off. Clearly, solenoid controlled, however I will not refer to it as a HSV style system until I learn more.
Keep us informed of how it works. You will find have a digital controller is 1,000 times better than an analog.
I would be interested to see a video of running the system from its lowest GPH to its MAX (like running from 30% dutycycle to 100%) and see how smooth the flow increase is. Should be very interesting.
David
Keep us informed of how it works. You will find have a digital controller is 1,000 times better than an analog.
I would be interested to see a video of running the system from its lowest GPH to its MAX (like running from 30% dutycycle to 100%) and see how smooth the flow increase is. Should be very interesting.
David
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11-13-07, 08:13 PM
#8
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thanks all for the heads up re the Bosch V NTK sensors. FJO offers both and is sending me an NTK.
wiring is near finished and i may have pictures of my elbow the two solenoids attached by tomorrow eve. there is just enough room for my 3 o'clock solenoid at the elbow in relation to the inner shock tower. perhaps mazda knew we would be adding solenoids. the other solenoid is at 6 o'clock and doesn't really interfere w sparkplug install and removal.
the 6 o'clock biases toward the secondaries and the 3 o'clock compensates for the turn toward the throttle body.
film at eleven.
hc
wiring is near finished and i may have pictures of my elbow the two solenoids attached by tomorrow eve. there is just enough room for my 3 o'clock solenoid at the elbow in relation to the inner shock tower. perhaps mazda knew we would be adding solenoids. the other solenoid is at 6 o'clock and doesn't really interfere w sparkplug install and removal.
the 6 o'clock biases toward the secondaries and the 3 o'clock compensates for the turn toward the throttle body.
film at eleven.
hc
11-14-07, 12:12 AM
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I'm curious if the system has a pressure regulator?
If there is no pressure regulator how does it compensate for voltage fluctuations, and what would happen if you lost or had an intermittent alternator?
If there is no pressure regulator how does it compensate for voltage fluctuations, and what would happen if you lost or had an intermittent alternator?
11-14-07, 07:09 AM
#10
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voltage fluctuation is a good question and i don't presently have the answer for you.
i do know the company was, and still is, in Defense Electronics and i have a sense they have very deep electronics capabilities. i spent an hour on the phone w them yesterday talking tech and continue to be very impressed. they spent a year on getting the spray pattern and delivery dynamics right and have a number of proprietary aspects to their AI system.
i will ask them re your question and hope to have an answer for you.
hc
i do know the company was, and still is, in Defense Electronics and i have a sense they have very deep electronics capabilities. i spent an hour on the phone w them yesterday talking tech and continue to be very impressed. they spent a year on getting the spray pattern and delivery dynamics right and have a number of proprietary aspects to their AI system.
i will ask them re your question and hope to have an answer for you.
hc
11-14-07, 11:20 AM
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I noticed in there catalog that their solenoids are for a given CC of flow like injectors.
Does this mean that the solenoid connects directly to the intake track or is it a bump in the line with hoses going to separate nozzles?
If it has hoses to separate nozzles then does the nozzle also limit flow, and if so than why build the solenoid to a specific limit, and why would anyone purchase anything but the largest one.
for example:
CWN0400 – Water Injection Solenoid Nozzle (300 HP – approx 400
cc/min)
High speed solenoid valve with precision ultra-fine atomizing nozzle for water injection, 3/8 NPT with 1/4" hose fitting, 316 stainless steel.
CWN0600 – Water Injection Solenoid Nozzle (400 HP – approx 600
cc/min)
High speed solenoid valve with precision ultra-fine atomizing nozzle for water injection, 3/8 NPT with 1/4" hose fitting, 316 stainless steel.
CWN0700 – Water Injection Solenoid Nozzle (500 HP – approx 700
cc/min)
High speed solenoid valve with precision ultra-fine atomizing nozzle for water injection, 3/8 NPT with 1/4" hose fitting, 316 stainless steel.
Does this mean that the solenoid connects directly to the intake track or is it a bump in the line with hoses going to separate nozzles?
If it has hoses to separate nozzles then does the nozzle also limit flow, and if so than why build the solenoid to a specific limit, and why would anyone purchase anything but the largest one.
for example:
CWN0400 – Water Injection Solenoid Nozzle (300 HP – approx 400
cc/min)
High speed solenoid valve with precision ultra-fine atomizing nozzle for water injection, 3/8 NPT with 1/4" hose fitting, 316 stainless steel.
CWN0600 – Water Injection Solenoid Nozzle (400 HP – approx 600
cc/min)
High speed solenoid valve with precision ultra-fine atomizing nozzle for water injection, 3/8 NPT with 1/4" hose fitting, 316 stainless steel.
CWN0700 – Water Injection Solenoid Nozzle (500 HP – approx 700
cc/min)
High speed solenoid valve with precision ultra-fine atomizing nozzle for water injection, 3/8 NPT with 1/4" hose fitting, 316 stainless steel.
Last edited by slo; 11-14-07 at 11:33 AM.
11-17-07, 04:31 PM
#14
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install update.
note FJO Boost solenoid and the vacuum/boost hose coming from the AI module which is also a boost controller and capable of safeguard settings as well as logging. FJO WideBand on right. they wire together and talk to each other. no old school here this is cutting edge stuff.
FJO AFR guage
FJO relay all mounted and ready to relay.
no room nowhere for a sixpack but lots of ignition. each amp runs one MSD 8253 coil and one NGK 6725 10.5 plug.
pump location. the factory had to be leaving room for it in the perfect place near the rear battery and in line w the unused line location next to the fuel lines. they were thinking AI.
nakidd pump. note the filter and the FJO 200 PSI AI line pressure sensor. they all get covered up.
all buttoned up pump
i should receive my re jiggered (injectors mounted) Elbow monday. fire it up and if no snow a bit of road tuning. dyno the sunday following thanksgiving.
so far so good. stay tuned. BTW, i will be running an NTK O2 sensor.
hc
note FJO Boost solenoid and the vacuum/boost hose coming from the AI module which is also a boost controller and capable of safeguard settings as well as logging. FJO WideBand on right. they wire together and talk to each other. no old school here this is cutting edge stuff.
FJO AFR guage
FJO relay all mounted and ready to relay.
no room nowhere for a sixpack but lots of ignition. each amp runs one MSD 8253 coil and one NGK 6725 10.5 plug.
pump location. the factory had to be leaving room for it in the perfect place near the rear battery and in line w the unused line location next to the fuel lines. they were thinking AI.
nakidd pump. note the filter and the FJO 200 PSI AI line pressure sensor. they all get covered up.
all buttoned up pump
i should receive my re jiggered (injectors mounted) Elbow monday. fire it up and if no snow a bit of road tuning. dyno the sunday following thanksgiving.
so far so good. stay tuned. BTW, i will be running an NTK O2 sensor.
hc
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 11-17-07 at 09:46 PM.
11-20-07, 02:33 PM
#18
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armed and dangerous...
real nice fab job.... thanks to Beyond Redline---Green Bay (Titletown) Wisconsin
almost back on the road.
real nice fab job.... thanks to Beyond Redline---Green Bay (Titletown) Wisconsin
almost back on the road.
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 11-29-07 at 10:25 AM.
11-30-07, 07:42 AM
#21
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here are a couple of pics showing the final install re my alcohol injectors.
i am pleased that i was able to position them exactly where i felt they should be w re to spray direction. the lower one does not interfere w the spark plugs.
i have a LED (lights when pump is on) to mount, the seats to re-install and i should be able to fire it up. the only problem is that we now have an inch of snow on the ground and 4 inches is expected saturday. snow and road salt is something my car has never, nor will ever, encounter.
either we get a thaw, i borrow a trailer, or it will be a long uneventful winter.
frustrated at the moment...
hc
i am pleased that i was able to position them exactly where i felt they should be w re to spray direction. the lower one does not interfere w the spark plugs.
i have a LED (lights when pump is on) to mount, the seats to re-install and i should be able to fire it up. the only problem is that we now have an inch of snow on the ground and 4 inches is expected saturday. snow and road salt is something my car has never, nor will ever, encounter.
either we get a thaw, i borrow a trailer, or it will be a long uneventful winter.
frustrated at the moment...
hc
