BDC

Thanks, Howard. I can accept it, but I'd honestly be surprised if that's what it was, given the fact that I'd never had an issue with them in the past. But, then again, this is a whole different deal, and it's not exactly everyday that you can run nearly 1.8 bar on almost stock plugs :/

I'm hoping I can stay with BUR9EQ's all around as that's basically one more feather in the cap of AI, but if it's just not possible, then I'll accept the necessity of having to use a colder plug.

B

hondahater

iTrader: (2)

are the BR10EIX a good plug? I went ahead and ordered these a week a go from racingbeat since they weren't any more expensive than the 9's.

edit: also if brians ignition amp wasn't working doesn't that mean he wouldn't be getting spark to those plugs?

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

I havent had to transition to 10s yet, so I cant imagine why BDC would have had too... The plugs that came out of his motor didnt look to good though..

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i can only see dyno loading being an issue if you are not careful watching the temps and heatsoak variables. yes they can load a car more than it would on your daily trip to the store but it shouldn't be pushing you out of your safety zone.

compare it to pulling a mild hill at WOT, you should be tuned to handle it unless you absolutely have no hills in your area in which case you monitor your AFRs on level road and then ease into it on the dyno, if the AFRs begin to lean out then you know your car is being loaded beyond your tune so you have to compensate, i noticed the same while on the dyno as i had to retune it after i left the shop but my wideband was also acting a bit wierd that evening so i can't say for sure if the dyno was loading up more than true conditions or if it was just my wideband but in theory you are just turning a big heavy wheel just like driving on the highway or climbing a hill or maybe even going down a hill.. in any case the tune should be able to handle any of those conditions high or low load.

Boostn7

why do I bother....
Go read your own blog and you'll have facts of your own....not gonna repeat myself anymore.
Obviously, I'm not the only one to see thru your bull, and tons of excuses.
Until you find the reason for your engine knock/damage DO NOT rule out that auxiliary system !
You are depending on it like an EFI system.......BIG mistake when you run high boost.
Hmmmmm....need to pay more attention to what you type.
--->"The only other thing I can think of is the gas I purchased"<---
--->"I don't know why, but my two theories are that I may've just gotten a bad tank of gas and not being diligent about getting my 93 from a good, reputable station like Shell or Mobil"<---
--->"or that I just had not-so-good gas at the Conoco corner store the day prior"
I don't care if you have excuses for all of the issues you encountered!
Those and other issues could surface on a 26psi run and your motor will not survive! How hard is that to comprehend ??
Huh, I'm not here posting for you to change your ways........hell no !!!
Just want people to realize your auxiliary methanol fuel system has yet to prove anything !!!

Do you remember any of your posts before going Methanol injection?
--->"I dyno'd over 300 to the wheels at 5.5psig of boost as an example on my 60-1 HIFI T4 turbo"<---
--->"I was making over 400rwh to the ground (running 100% duty cycle on four 720's with a static fuel pressure of 55psi) and didn't once see the thing jitter. "
-"I've never bragged one time about making 425rwhp. Never once. And, by the way, I daily-drove that same setup to and from work for 3 years, same engine, with over 200,000 miles on it. That same core was blown twice and oil-starved once. What was this comment about "seeing how long mine lasts"?"<---
--->"Engine is a 1987 block with about 250,000 miles, stock pressure regulation, 3mm GSL-SE apex seals, FD corner seal and side seal springs, TES inner water jacket o-rings, buffed and polished rotors to mirror finish, custom exhaust ports (very conservative) and large extend port both on primaries and secondaries, port-matched lower intake manifold, non-modified TB (at the time), A2W intercooler running ~50F degree water back to back, BUR9EQ's in the leading plugs, Haltech E6K, and the list goes on and on. Dyno run was from 2000rpm to 7600rpm (had problems with trigger pickup). I believe it would've hit 430's by 8200rpm where the rev limiter is set."<---

Even your air to water setup using the stock top mount intercooler with a water resevoir JB welded to the sides and a Home Depot pump and rigged heat exchanger seemed to be safer and make almost as much power at lower boost:-).

You continue to act like you have made another miraculous discovery, all by yourself first the BP and now methanol injection......WOW !!!

Unfortunately, you feel the sky to be the limit with your system and soon you will see there is a limit just like everything else....
I'm NOT against AI( water/alcohol) systems at all, only against the way you're using it.
Let me leave you w/ something to think about....
-Besides all possible failures w/ your system.....how do you guarantee equal delivery of Methanol to each rotor ?
-The obvious variability when tuning with methanol/alcohol.....as you experienced.
-Does your methanol/alcohol delivery increase with rpm or boost?
-Can you guarantee 100% vaporization with the ratio you're using?

Methanol/alcohol systems haven't proven to be able to support turbo cars at higher power on its own safely over time......a fact admitted by many tuners.

I'm done here...
JD

BDC

Fair enough, but I still think you're mistaken.

B

socalrotor

iTrader: (1)

I had been tuning on a blown alky SBC, and the ONLY way to read the plugs is heat discolorazation of the sprark plug. IE the further down the plug you see a discolorazation the leaner the mix. This ONLY off my 2 cents with my family's Camaro. It alos takes ALOT of ING. power to light meth, that would more than likely be the spark break up you get in the top end.

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

Those are good questions above, anyone know the answers? Especially the first question....

Anthony

sdminus

Those are the very reasons i stoped tuning mine 4 months ago.

howeva after over a year of trying i think the answers have been found but that will have to wait for a few more weeks before i can try the pieces out and log the proof.

I raised the very same and also more points of concearn in the early stages of trying but was pushed to one side.

Scott

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

JD raises THE question w regard to AI when used to materially raise power output.

a very fair question that each of us have considered.

a question that needs to be answered before AI can assume a major role in providing more hp more of the time.

"if you are going to withdraw pump gas from the map and replace it w another fuel (in this case methanol) what happens to the motor when the system malfunctions?"

i can assure you this board is not the first to pose this question. we are breaking no new ground here other than applying AI to the rotary.

so instead of starting at ground zero just walk on over to the turbobuick board. since the Buick GNs came w turbos and were built long before the FD they have been at AI a while.

specifically there are 69 PAGES of 2751 THREADS dating back to 2001. all relating to AI and most dealing w “tuned up” methanol daily drivers.

turbobuicks run max 14 psi without AI and 24-27 psi with AI on the street and strip. does that sound familiar? which boost do YOU want to run?

the turbobuick typically weighs 3850 pounds w driver and has a semi archaic 230 cubic inch V6 2 valve pushrod motor. many of them run in the 10s at 130+ while dragging around 750 more pounds than we do.

How much HP does it take to do that?

they do it on 93 octane pump gas and methanol.

You will find all these cars on the street during the week. You will find them filling up at the corner gas station.

if you read the buick board you will find very little content relating to concerns about system failure. draw your own conclusions as to why....

when i did my initial research as to AI i concluded that, since system failure would be catastrophic, system integrity would need to be job one.

while there no doubt are other well built systems available i chose Alkycontrol as it is the system in most of the turbobuicks. it is built up to true racing standards. i know racing as i raced for 22 seasons. all braided SS lines. all fittings brass hydraulic, all electronics/electrics built and designed by an Electrical Engineer, a separate pump heat-dissipating control module for the mod-d pump. built by a racer who runs his own stuff weekly (florida) at the strip. in the 10s w a 3850 pound car.

my installation is serious... if you run methanol you run a fuel cell. you don't have the container in the engine compartment, my pump control is next to my battery behind the pass seat and very close to my pump which is under the car driver's side tucked in near the half shaft.

and it has operated been flawlessly.

i run a Power FC. i also log pre turbo egts in both rotors. l log fuel pressure. i log exhaust manifold pressure in addition to knock of course through the PFC.

i KNOW what my motor is doing.

my alcohol, in over 2000 miles of testing has initiated within .2 of a psi, generally within .1. i have no problem tuning around what has been a stable alcohol delivery curve. i run 2 M10 nozzles capable of delivering 1260 CC min. i am somewhere around down 20-25% pump in my map.

here's the metrics from my last run:

17.3-----------17.6-----------17.5-----------18.0---------18.0-------18.48 ------ boost

10.6-----------11.1-----------10.9-----------10.4---------10.3---------9.8----- AFR

16-------------21-------------17------------8-------------3--------------2-----PowerFC Knock

1125--------1117------------1179-------1190----------1201-------1234---Pre turbo EGT f

51-------------60--------------65----------71-------------81-----------86 Inj Duty850/1600

57------------59-------------56----------56-------------58-----------58------—Fuel Pressure

15-----------------------------------------------------------------Lead Ignition w 11degrees of split

4.2---------4.57---------------------------------------------------------------------------------TPS

57--------------------------------------------------------------- degrees F pre meth air temp


after that run i added just a bit of mid range timing and did two more runs. rolling into a third gear run at 59% throttle, 5900 rpm 3rd gear my car just went sideways. i dropped rear tire pressure two pounds to 25 psi and promptly fried my exedy hyper single cerametallic. that was it for 06.

i run 18 X10 285 35s on the rear w 53% rear weight.

my car is of course all disassmbled for the winter. i will run an exedy twin cerametallic in 07.

the engine is sitting on the stand. Other than removing it I won’t be touching it. it had more compression at year end than it did at the start of 06.

just look at the metrics. no knock. no egts. i actually do need to lean it out (11.5) a bit and am shooting for 1550 egt.

so what am i doing re my AI system this winter? absolutely nothing. i have a fairly light build schedule for this winter.... new wheels (enkei NTO3+M 18 X 9.5 and 10.5, a new clutch and 14 and 13.375 rotors w 6 and 4 piston brakes). i will be getting back on the track in 07. also plan the Silver State Classic.

back to AI.

as we all know the AI section is a big welcoming tent populated by people w differing objectives. many use AI to cool their motors a bit. it does the job. many use just water. some use a mix of alcohol and water. some use alcohol. some want 500 rwhp on tap any time they push on the pedal.

AI, when properly fixtured, is capable of delivering on each of these differing objectives.

as w any facet of performance you have to do it right. in the case of "tuning up" the consequences of not doing it right can be a motor. i know that. all the buick guys know that. and consequently they do it right.

as we reach for more power the process entails getting it right. modding is not a casual process. it envolves choices, tradeoffs and the assumption of risk. Yes AI adds another system and yes you have to do it right. Just like when you tune your uprated turbo… you do it right or you pay the consequences.

Is it right for everyone? Of course not. Is it a legitimate option? Of course.

Just a few other points….


The question as to equal mixture between rotors has been legitimately posed. Equal distribution is an important consideration. I believe I have a nice, simple nozzle location and it has promoted equal distribution. I located my nozzles in the silicone coupler in front of my Greddy elbow. The nozzles are located at 6 and 3 oclock to bias them towards the front rotor against the elbow turn and towards the secondaries.

Lots of “I believes” but I monitor egts front and rear and w equal base fuel on my map my egts are only 30 degrees different front to rear. Further, my throttle body and butterflies look equal. And clean.

As to what octane my mix is…. I don’t care. I tune w knock and egt like the buick guys. There are many aspects of alcohol V gas other than octane such as differing autoignition levels between the two etc. I am not a physicist, I am a car guy and as long as the knock is good and the egts look good (which they are) I am uninterested in the details.

I look forward to 2007 with great optimism as to the impact AI will have on our community. It will take real results to really sell the concept and they still are only in process. Once AI delivers there will be a growth of participation.

Probably the biggest beneficiaries will be the double disc clutch guys… I do believe in the new paradigm concept here…. It will be operative w re to turbo and clutch selection especially.

Finally, after finding the reasonable limits of alcohol, probably around 20-30%, it will be interesting to back it down a few clicks and see what we can do to make around 450 or so rwhp so perhaps clutches and various items won’t need to be too expensive.

2007 should be an exciting year.

howard coleman

dubulup

the first and last question are excellent...I guess that's why howard coleman has always thought to build a secondary auxilary rail hitting each runner. I suppose a tuning helper, is to monitor EGT's in both runners and (as howard coleman does) knock...but can the system vaporize that ratio consistantly in all conditions 24/7 and supply each rotor accurately for the aggressive tune? Big dollar question.

the rpm and boost question is a real mind boogler for me...sounds like you would need another ECU to cover all bases, but again, Boostn7 calls this method an EFI system. The system I've chosen (50:50), just increases AI pump pressure with boost. Although, that is how RICE RACING's simple WI system works as well...I'm not sure I need to be as worried as I'm not going as extreme as some of the players here...still wonder how this question resolves

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Let me attempt to answer some of those:

- Equal delivery on both rotors: At least for me, that is using a single nozzle, that is a puzzler. I suppose the truthful answer is, I can not assume delivery is equal, although I cant prove its un-equal either. Both plugs seem to burn the same.

- The obvious variability when tuning with methanol/alcohol: I am not sure who had this problem (BDC?) but my system has been the model of consistency. I havent retuned my car since the new motor broke in. Of course regular maintenance and testing of your system will inform you of anything that may be going wrong.

- RPM/BOOST delivery: Yes, my system has a MAP sensor that starts boost at your preset limit and ramps it to max delivery at your second limit point. Both are adjustable. I set my start point pretty low as its easier to prevent knock then it is to extinguish it once it has began.

- 100% vaporization: Again, I cant garantee that on my system, I would hope that was ironed out by the manufacturer before I bought the system.

Rat

enzo250

I don't...

I believe you wasted 5 months of your life which could've been spent better elsewhere.

Boostn7

No I did not....I said -BDC relies on it like an EFI system to fuel his 15 to 26+psi map.

JD

dubulup

^that's the "method" I was referring too...

seems that the safest way to run this method is to have it rpm AND boost mapped...seems loading the car differently (where boost and rpm aren't always exactly same) could blow engines.

sdminus

THe safest way for sure is idc tracking.

I dont understand what you mean boost and rpm is that not the same as rpm and load ??

when are rpm and boost ever the same ?

I dont follow

Its quite simple how he has tuned it and always safe if the meth never gets interupted

sdminus

I bet if the AI kit packed in he would be crazy lean in the building boost cells and lean at high end. But overall he will have removed loads of fuel on the way into boost becasue the system will follow the boost output and not the fuel map delivery

dubulup

rpm and load...yes.

the same as in...XXpsi at XXXXrpm


I have not seen an AI system that takes RPM into account. At least in this thread...the only trigger point I have seen is boost, then fine tuning with fuel. At some point the ratio's won't be the same.

max boost @ 4500rpm and max boost @ 8200rpm won't have the same mixture ratio ...or am I missing the train?

sdminus

You are kind of spot on his AI system will work as per example :

3500 rpm 0 psi 30 idc AI 0 %
4000 rpm 5psi 19 idc AI 10%
5000 rpm 10 psi 19 idc AI 40 %
6000 rpm 15 psi 30 idc AI 90 %

These are on guess numbers or maybe brian could post it up in its correct form. Howeva the alch will only eva work under boost ( high load ) and he has only pulled fuel ( if he did it the same as howard ) in the boost ( high load ) region of the map. Not at high rpm low load.

THe idc tracking is comming my friend.

The only problem with the boost based system is when the motor makes boost fast. then it will hit 100 % very early and be over rich.

BDC

Yes, from a certain point-of-view, it's like having a secondary EFI system. Aside from the admittedly arguable point of having more potential failure points, is there any other objection to running this, bet it technically, philosophically, or whatever? If this system is being relied upon as a secondary EFI system for all practical intents and purposes, and is purposefully and decidedly built and designed to be not only robust but also highly dependable and reliable, then in my opinion I don't see any issue with running it as such. The one I'm using in particular is designed to be like that; it's meant to replace a good portion of fuel under progressive load, so it's not as if I'm asking it to do more than it was originally designed to do.

B

BDC

I'll do my best to answer these:

1) No, I don't have any guarantee. The best I can do is look at it from a common-sense approach with respect to where the nozzle is located around where the charge moves through the intake. I took this into account when I put mine together. I placed the injector nozzle on my throttle body's inlet adaptor a way where the spray would point straight towards the center of the body, thereby theoretically distributing evenly. I suppose the only other way to know for certain would be to monitor both chambers' EGT's. I would also think that with heavier and heavier ratios of gasoline to alcohol (like in my case), if there was a problem with one chamber getting a substantially larger amount of alcohol, it would show up as a greater difference between chamber EGT's. Is that reasonable? Would also spark plugs show a differential?

2) Load-based according to boost. Voltage to the pump is progressively increased to thereby increase system pressure based on boost rising.

3) No, I can't guarantee it. I would hope that that's one thing covered by the manufacturer. I'd rely on their pool of experience as well as those who've already used the product in the past (hopefully w/ consistent success).

B

BDC

This would've been the issue with mine had mine stopped. Infact, I've turned my system off before just to play with it to see how it'd run. By the time boost musters itself towards 15psi, it's already reading in the 18's:1; lean enough to where the motor is stuttering and basically dying. I run a heavy ratio of gas to alcohol (70/30 on my last setup); the heavier the ratio, obviously the more pronounced this is.

B

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

vaporization is an interesting subject.

initially i considered locating a nozzle in the top of each runner in the LIM. equal distribution and less negative BTUs lost to cooling the aluminum UIM.

given this is my first experience w AI i listened to Julio (Alkycontrol) who suggested i just install it and get tuning as opposed to re-inventing the wheel right off the bat.

i think in retrospect that was good advice. alcohol "flashes" immediately given a temperature above 57 degrees f. i am not sure it would flash if injected so close to the port. (but i don't know.)

what i do know is this... our pumps are magnetic impulse pumps and as such the produce a series of spurts. (unless you run an accumulator tank).

it could be argued that that would lead to uneven injectant supply to the motor.

this does not show up anywhere on my logs. here's why...

as the mixture of injectant and air passes thru the throttle body it is moving very fast. it is under pressure towards the engine and the engine w the uncovered intake port offers vacuum to further attract the flow.

then all of a sudden the intake port slams shut and the mixture has no place to go. Newton's 3rd law kicks in and suddenly the mixture is heading very fast towards the butterflys. this is no different other than degree than a NA motor and tuning the throttle venturi stacks for reversion.

as far as mixing the air and injectant think BLENDER as in bassomatic.

no problem w atomization w AI.

definitely a challenge re equal distribution.

howard coleman