25.7 PSI on PUMP... AUXILIARY INJECTION RULES
01-01-07, 04:38 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
Actually he also mentions that he may have been too agressive on his timing so it seems like he knows that it may have been his fault. Go read your own quote again.
not like he changed it at the dyno, unless his log is not actual of last run.
Originally Posted by rotarygod
That's not it at all. He has fully admitted that he's well outside the efficiency range of his turbo and intercooler setup. He was mostly concerned with how far he could push it on this setup before he blew it up. I guess he found out! It was bound to happen someday. It has nothing to do with an auxiliary system. That can work fine. I'm sick of seeing people blow up their cars with conventional fuel systems and low boost levels. There's NO excuse for that!
How do you know something did not go wrong with his auxiliary system ???
and adding such an auxiliary system to fuel 26psi of boost makes it safer ????
I agree...too many broken motors at low boost when many continue to make same mistakes, copy other peoples set ups or maps or tune their own cars with no knowledge !!!
Originally Posted by rotarygod
The fact that there is a bridgeport or 24 psi of boost is actually irrelevant. A boost number is just that, a number. Boost pressure is not directly reflective of airflow as different turbos flow different amounts of air at different pressures. He's running a turbo that is outside of it's efficiency range. If he was running a turbo inside it's efficiency range, he'd have made more power. Don't make the all too common mistake of focusing solely on boost pressure. We see too many stupid irrelevant questions such as "How much boost pressure can I run?". It doesn't tell you everything and with that little information nothing relevant. Even worse still is someone will answer it with a number! The car that RR is talking about that made 580 hp probably has a more properly sized turbo on it for it's power level (looks like it!) and the intercooler is definitely large enough. Those 2 things can make all the difference in the world with efficiency and risk of detonation. He has lots more room to go before hitting the edge and can probably get higher numbers as a result of the greater efficiency. No surpise here.
I for one am highly impressed with the numbers Brian put down with that turbo and intercooler. No one else could do that with the same equipment! You need to go laugh at the people who blow up their cars at 300 HP from nothing more than bad tuning. We see it all the time! There are far more of those here there are pioneers at pushing the edge. Cut Brian some slack. Unlike many rotary people, he shares what he does with others in the hope of bettering a community which sorely needs more people who know anything useful. He's within that 1% who isn't scared to share what he's done. He is very open and helpful. He's creative and he's willing to push the limits and even risk blowing it up all in the name of learning. Show me someone else on the forum that is willing to do what Brian does and then tell every detail about it. I'll wait.
I for one am highly impressed with the numbers Brian put down with that turbo and intercooler. No one else could do that with the same equipment! You need to go laugh at the people who blow up their cars at 300 HP from nothing more than bad tuning. We see it all the time! There are far more of those here there are pioneers at pushing the edge. Cut Brian some slack. Unlike many rotary people, he shares what he does with others in the hope of bettering a community which sorely needs more people who know anything useful. He's within that 1% who isn't scared to share what he's done. He is very open and helpful. He's creative and he's willing to push the limits and even risk blowing it up all in the name of learning. Show me someone else on the forum that is willing to do what Brian does and then tell every detail about it. I'll wait.
The Series5 TurboII intercooler flows well but not the greatest for efficiency.
I've known Brian for quite awhile now....(ask him) and he is very creative and I'll leave at that.
Originally Posted by rotarygod
Nice effort Brian! Get it rebuilt with a new turbo and intercooler and come back bigger and better than before and show everyone how far they can push things with everything designed around it.
Originally Posted by rotarygod
There are advantages and disadvantages to both water and methanol injection. Neither is perfect and both are supplements. Of course you can make an engine run solely on methanol if you desired! I find it funny that someone would insult one over the other. You can easily find fault with each approach and positives to both. Which one is better? Who knows? They can both obviously work well and that is the whole point. Just slightly different approaches to it. It's not worth insulting one over the other. That's a futile excuse to justify the other one.
Anyone care to guess what octane is BDCs mixture of 70%-93 octane and 30%- Methanol is????
JD
01-01-07, 05:42 PM
#52
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by Boostn7
YES ! they are both supplements and not to be depended like an EFI like BDC is doing.
Originally Posted by Boostn7
Anyone care to guess what octane is BDCs mixture of 70%-93 octane and 30%- Methanol is????
JD
JD
The aux system didn't fail, btw -- The wideband was reading RICH when it stuttered (right at the same time it misfired or whatever it did and cracked the dowel land), which is at very minimum 9.99:1 or richer. Given the amount of alcohol that's being used to replace fuel that's been taken out of the fuel map (atleast 30%), there's no way in the world that it would've been the case given the injector DC's for the load and rpm the motor was under. If it had failed, it would've read LEAN long before even 15psi and would've stuttered to death. The system comes on at a trickle at around 5psi of boost and steadily ramps itself up depending on the two other settings (TurnOn and Gain) that I adjust.
B
Last edited by BDC; 01-01-07 at 05:54 PM.
01-01-07, 05:58 PM
#53
Brian
If you're going to argue with everyone because they are not in agreement with your opinion and the way you've been carrying on your experiment why do you even bother posting or asking for anyone's opinion then.
John is stating from his experience and findings also, just like you. Instead of bashing him probably you should ask the opinion of other tuners what it takes to be able to run more than 15 psi on pump gas and also make 500 reliable horsepower.
So from your experience you believe the motor should not have detonated because it was rich?
Can I ask you what your air temps. were?
Also I've asked you at least twice before to show a datalog of a full pass at the said boost you were running. You claimed you've been doing this for at least 5 months yet I've not seen one datalog of a full pass on the street.
I'm not trying to bring you down or anything like that. I'm just trying to get all the facts correct because from what I'm seeing and from my personal experience a lot of what is being claimed does not add up because there are no positive results to show or back up all your findings.
If you're going to argue with everyone because they are not in agreement with your opinion and the way you've been carrying on your experiment why do you even bother posting or asking for anyone's opinion then.
John is stating from his experience and findings also, just like you. Instead of bashing him probably you should ask the opinion of other tuners what it takes to be able to run more than 15 psi on pump gas and also make 500 reliable horsepower.
So from your experience you believe the motor should not have detonated because it was rich?
Can I ask you what your air temps. were?
Also I've asked you at least twice before to show a datalog of a full pass at the said boost you were running. You claimed you've been doing this for at least 5 months yet I've not seen one datalog of a full pass on the street.
I'm not trying to bring you down or anything like that. I'm just trying to get all the facts correct because from what I'm seeing and from my personal experience a lot of what is being claimed does not add up because there are no positive results to show or back up all your findings.
01-01-07, 06:04 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by BDC
How do you know this, John? Got any personal experience with it? I do; about 5 months of it under my belt so far including all the ups and downs, and I am more confident today than I was two days ago on the dyno that using alcohol like a secondary fuel system, in that capacity, does more than just "raise knock level to allow a bit more boost" -- it's a completely different beast altogether. It is a paradigm shift; an utter change of ideology in how we modify the car and ultimately how much boost and power we can make reliably.
Any failure or inconsistency of your methanol delivery is goona result on another engine failure.
You don't even have a clue as to why it knocked on the dyno and not on the highway with same timing advance.........oh yeh, bad gas
Originally Posted by BDC
The reason why I've chosen to limit myself as a tuner to 1bar of boost or lower on pump gas isn't a testament to poor tuning, lack of overall experience, or anything like that but it's more about the unreliability of pump gas alone as a fuel. In my opinion, which is the concluding evolution of several years of doing this stuff both professionally and as a hobbyist, is that pump gas is highly unreliable in and of itself. It is my strong feeling and has been for quite some time, long before I ever drempt of doing AI stuff, that the bar is and has set way too high for what this community expects to produce power-wise out of their Rx7's on pump gas alone and what they're led to believe is reliable and safe. We can talk to each other about this until we're both blue in the face, but that's my stance on it and it will not change unless there's a dramatic change in the quality of fuels available at the pump.
Depending on set ups and available octane many rotary tuners could tune a car and let the customer know what the limit will be on pump and how much more they could run on race gas........if a customer decides to run higher boost without needed octane then its on them.
I'm really surprised you're not running 100% Methanol by now!!!!
Originally Posted by BDC
The advent of using alcohol in the manner than Howard and I are doing it based upon the Alkycontrol system design all the sudden opens up a whole new way of running boost on pump gas when a good portion of the fuel in the charge is replaced with alcohol as opposed to just a sprinkle added which is indicative of the rest of the AI world, generally speaking. That's why we have such rich ratios of gasoline to alcohol -- 70/30 in my case and nearly 60/40 in Howard's case -- we're both convinced that the alcohol has a cumulatively beneficial effect on both power output and reliability. See, everyone's putting the microscope on my setup, dissecting each and every word I say into pieces, trying to find the holes and point the finger, yet most everyone has either ignored or forgotten about Howard's setup: He's running two M10gph @ 100psi nozzles at a nearly 60/40 ratio and, last he ran, was in the 7000rpm range at 23psi of boost out of a pair of T3/T04E-46 turbos, with 15*L advance with zero knock on his PowerFC datalogs. That's over 80lbs/min of airflow. The heavy alcohol ratios are enabling this great divide between what you've noted as my 14psi and under on pump gas alone thing vs. trying to hit stratospheric and rather insane boost levels with alcohol. For all intents and purposes, practically speaking and notwithstanding the technical differences between AI and race fuel, it's like the huge shift in how hard and how long the car can be run between using something like 93 octane pump fuel and VP Racing's C16 117 leaded race fuel, for example.
You continue to compare pump vs pump+alcohol injection.
I rather have my EFI control all my fuel needs....w/ C16 I could run alot more boost then your pump/alcohol mixture will allow. Add more alcohol and you'll see how things will change again as far as tunning or else you will make less power.
Just realized Howards set up being all apart, why ??????
How high in boost do you think you could run with your 70/30 ratio with new turbo/intercooler?
What octane do you think you're at w/ that ratio ?
Originally Posted by BDC
I hope this helps clears it up, John. If it doesn't, please let me know and I'll try to explain further or go over any points I may've missed.
B
B
If they want to run insane amount of boost fill with C16 or go 100% Methanol !!!
I've been doing this alot longer then you and sometimes common sense goes a long way.
Happy New Year eveybody
JD
01-01-07, 06:16 PM
#55
Originally Posted by Boostn7
sometimes common sense goes a long way.
JD
JD
Happy New Year Everyone.
Last edited by crispeed; 01-01-07 at 06:27 PM.
01-01-07, 06:20 PM
#56
BDC Motorsports
Crispeed,
It's not my intent to merely "argue with everyone because they're not in agreement with my opinion". That assumes I have a certain, selfish and controlling motive that I know I don't have. I'm also certainly not "bashing" him whatsoever. He's a friend of mine. I've known him for 10 years. I'm asking pointed questions to clarify his statements. It's my belief that he's arguing with me based on something that he is ultimately mistaken about so I'm raising points to argue the technical merits of his claims. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, isn't that part of the very heart of this section, let alone this forum?
I realise that what I'm proposing concerning AI in the overall sense goes 100% against the grain of the well-established tuning construct of this forum and the rotary community in general. I realise that some of the things I'm asserting at first blush either make people scratch their heads or flat-out disbelieve. I understand all of this, but believe me with all sincereity, I'm not interested in bashing anyone, calling people names, or knocking someone else down that disagrees with me. I've had plenty of opportunity to do that with Rice but I've stayed my mouth. I'm interested in technical argumentation; I want to be better at what I do and the only way that's possible is to lean solely on what the truth is, whether it's self-serving, flattering, or not.
I honestly don't know. If it did because of that, then it's "yay" for alcohol injection because all it did was prove everything we've been asserting about its magical-like benefits this entire time. What do you think? I have a friend who's concluded that that's what led to the rear plate cracking (the motor running too rich and misfiring while at full power). What's your input?
With the IAT sensor mounted in the lower intake manifold, in the front primary runner, where the oil metering injector used to be (directly adjacent to the LIM to engine gasket), the IAT's started at 135*F and ended at 110*F when I lifted off the throttle.
My claim of about 5 months has been my general, overall experiment. I certainly wasn't ******* the car at 20psi of boost the day I finished putting the system on. The details of my blog can confirm this. As far as what you've asked concerning a full pass, you are right in that I haven't done it anywhere near as many times as I have running more mid-range (to 6krpm). There's only been a few times where I'd run it up past 7000rpm that were logged. The problem during nearly every bit of my testing was it was just me driving the car, watching the wideband, watching the EGT, pissing my pants about my car blowing up while experimenting with something in a rather balsy way, and watching the traffic at upwards of 110mph all at the same time. The few times I did tach it out were in 3rd gear were I could. A couple of weeks ago when my g/f was helping lend a hand, I tached it out a few times without any incident. I've also bounced the spark rev limiter at 8200rpm in 2nd gear several times. Even with this, it still might be that the area at the high RPM range wasn't as well tuned as I'd liked it to be. On the 6th and last run on the dyno, the w/b was reading richer than 10:1 when it broke up and cracked the plate. You can see it on the corresponding video. On the 5th run just prior to that 6th, plate-breaking run, you can see the same thing happen along w/ a couple of large poofs of black smoke coming out the exhaust. Perhaps it's possible that the last time I adjusted the alcohol that I didn't take it up as high as I needed and therefore wound up running richer than I originally assumed it was doing. Who knows.
Ok, fair enough. Ask away. I certainly have nothing to hide nor any agenda to unfairly push. What else would you like to know?
B
Originally Posted by crispeed
Brian
If you're going to argue with everyone because they are not in agreement with your opinion and the way you've been carrying on your experiment why do you even bother posting or asking for anyone's opinion then.
John is stating from his experience and findings also just like you. Instead of bashing him probably you should ask the opinion of other tuners what it takes to be able to run more than 15 psi on pump gas and also make 500 reliable horsepower.
If you're going to argue with everyone because they are not in agreement with your opinion and the way you've been carrying on your experiment why do you even bother posting or asking for anyone's opinion then.
John is stating from his experience and findings also just like you. Instead of bashing him probably you should ask the opinion of other tuners what it takes to be able to run more than 15 psi on pump gas and also make 500 reliable horsepower.
I realise that what I'm proposing concerning AI in the overall sense goes 100% against the grain of the well-established tuning construct of this forum and the rotary community in general. I realise that some of the things I'm asserting at first blush either make people scratch their heads or flat-out disbelieve. I understand all of this, but believe me with all sincereity, I'm not interested in bashing anyone, calling people names, or knocking someone else down that disagrees with me. I've had plenty of opportunity to do that with Rice but I've stayed my mouth. I'm interested in technical argumentation; I want to be better at what I do and the only way that's possible is to lean solely on what the truth is, whether it's self-serving, flattering, or not.
Originally Posted by crispeed
So from your experience you believe the motor should not have detonated because it was rich?
Originally Posted by crispeed
Can I ask you what your air temps. were?
Also I've asked you at least twice befroe to show a datalog of a full pass at the said boost you were running. You claimed you've been doing this for at least 5 months yet I've not seen one datalog of a full pass on the street.
Also I've asked you at least twice befroe to show a datalog of a full pass at the said boost you were running. You claimed you've been doing this for at least 5 months yet I've not seen one datalog of a full pass on the street.
My claim of about 5 months has been my general, overall experiment. I certainly wasn't ******* the car at 20psi of boost the day I finished putting the system on. The details of my blog can confirm this. As far as what you've asked concerning a full pass, you are right in that I haven't done it anywhere near as many times as I have running more mid-range (to 6krpm). There's only been a few times where I'd run it up past 7000rpm that were logged. The problem during nearly every bit of my testing was it was just me driving the car, watching the wideband, watching the EGT, pissing my pants about my car blowing up while experimenting with something in a rather balsy way, and watching the traffic at upwards of 110mph all at the same time. The few times I did tach it out were in 3rd gear were I could. A couple of weeks ago when my g/f was helping lend a hand, I tached it out a few times without any incident. I've also bounced the spark rev limiter at 8200rpm in 2nd gear several times. Even with this, it still might be that the area at the high RPM range wasn't as well tuned as I'd liked it to be. On the 6th and last run on the dyno, the w/b was reading richer than 10:1 when it broke up and cracked the plate. You can see it on the corresponding video. On the 5th run just prior to that 6th, plate-breaking run, you can see the same thing happen along w/ a couple of large poofs of black smoke coming out the exhaust. Perhaps it's possible that the last time I adjusted the alcohol that I didn't take it up as high as I needed and therefore wound up running richer than I originally assumed it was doing. Who knows.
Originally Posted by crispeed
I'm not trying to bring you down or anything like that. I'm just trying to get all the facts correct because from what I'm seeing and from my personal experience a lot of what is being claimed does not add up because there are no positive results to show or back up all your findings.
B
01-01-07, 06:24 PM
#57
Originally Posted by BDC
Crispeed,
It's not my intent to merely "argue with everyone because they're not in agreement with my opinion". That assumes I have a certain, selfish and controlling motive that I know I don't have. I'm also certainly not "bashing" him whatsoever. He's a friend of mine. I've known him for 10 years. I'm asking pointed questions to clarify his statements. It's my belief that he's arguing with me based on something that he is ultimately mistaken about so I'm raising points to argue the technical merits of his claims. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, isn't that part of the very heart of this section, let alone this forum?
I realise that what I'm proposing concerning AI in the overall sense goes 100% against the grain of the well-established tuning construct of this forum and the rotary community in general. I realise that some of the things I'm asserting at first blush either make people scratch their heads or flat-out disbelieve. I understand all of this, but believe me with all sincereity, I'm not interested in bashing anyone, calling people names, or knocking someone else down that disagrees with me. I've had plenty of opportunity to do that with Rice but I've stayed my mouth. I'm interested in technical argumentation; I want to be better at what I do and the only way that's possible is to lean solely on what the truth is, whether it's self-serving, flattering, or not.
I honestly don't know. If it did because of that, then it's "yay" for alcohol injection because all it did was prove everything we've been asserting about its magical-like benefits this entire time. What do you think? I have a friend who's concluded that that's what led to the rear plate cracking (the motor running too rich and misfiring while at full power). What's your input?
With the IAT sensor mounted in the lower intake manifold, in the front primary runner, where the oil metering injector used to be (directly adjacent to the LIM to engine gasket), the IAT's started at 135*F and ended at 110*F when I lifted off the throttle.
My claim of about 5 months has been my general, overall experiment. I certainly wasn't ******* the car at 20psi of boost the day I finished putting the system on. The details of my blog can confirm this. As far as what you've asked concerning a full pass, you are right in that I haven't done it anywhere near as many times as I have running more mid-range (to 6krpm). There's only been a few times where I'd run it up past 7000rpm that were logged. The problem during nearly every bit of my testing was it was just me driving the car, watching the wideband, watching the EGT, pissing my pants about my car blowing up while experimenting with something in a rather balsy way, and watching the traffic at upwards of 110mph all at the same time. The few times I did tach it out were in 3rd gear were I could. A couple of weeks ago when my g/f was helping lend a hand, I tached it out a few times without any incident. I've also bounced the spark rev limiter at 8200rpm in 2nd gear several times. Even with this, it still might be that the area at the high RPM range wasn't as well tuned as I'd liked it to be. On the 6th and last run on the dyno, the w/b was reading richer than 10:1 when it broke up and cracked the plate. You can see it on the corresponding video. On the 5th run just prior to that 6th, plate-breaking run, you can see the same thing happen along w/ a couple of large poofs of black smoke coming out the exhaust. Perhaps it's possible that the last time I adjusted the alcohol that I didn't take it up as high as I needed and therefore wound up running richer than I originally assumed it was doing. Who knows.
Ok, fair enough. Ask away. I certainly have nothing to hide nor any agenda to unfairly push. What else would you like to know?
B
It's not my intent to merely "argue with everyone because they're not in agreement with my opinion". That assumes I have a certain, selfish and controlling motive that I know I don't have. I'm also certainly not "bashing" him whatsoever. He's a friend of mine. I've known him for 10 years. I'm asking pointed questions to clarify his statements. It's my belief that he's arguing with me based on something that he is ultimately mistaken about so I'm raising points to argue the technical merits of his claims. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, isn't that part of the very heart of this section, let alone this forum?
I realise that what I'm proposing concerning AI in the overall sense goes 100% against the grain of the well-established tuning construct of this forum and the rotary community in general. I realise that some of the things I'm asserting at first blush either make people scratch their heads or flat-out disbelieve. I understand all of this, but believe me with all sincereity, I'm not interested in bashing anyone, calling people names, or knocking someone else down that disagrees with me. I've had plenty of opportunity to do that with Rice but I've stayed my mouth. I'm interested in technical argumentation; I want to be better at what I do and the only way that's possible is to lean solely on what the truth is, whether it's self-serving, flattering, or not.
I honestly don't know. If it did because of that, then it's "yay" for alcohol injection because all it did was prove everything we've been asserting about its magical-like benefits this entire time. What do you think? I have a friend who's concluded that that's what led to the rear plate cracking (the motor running too rich and misfiring while at full power). What's your input?
With the IAT sensor mounted in the lower intake manifold, in the front primary runner, where the oil metering injector used to be (directly adjacent to the LIM to engine gasket), the IAT's started at 135*F and ended at 110*F when I lifted off the throttle.
My claim of about 5 months has been my general, overall experiment. I certainly wasn't ******* the car at 20psi of boost the day I finished putting the system on. The details of my blog can confirm this. As far as what you've asked concerning a full pass, you are right in that I haven't done it anywhere near as many times as I have running more mid-range (to 6krpm). There's only been a few times where I'd run it up past 7000rpm that were logged. The problem during nearly every bit of my testing was it was just me driving the car, watching the wideband, watching the EGT, pissing my pants about my car blowing up while experimenting with something in a rather balsy way, and watching the traffic at upwards of 110mph all at the same time. The few times I did tach it out were in 3rd gear were I could. A couple of weeks ago when my g/f was helping lend a hand, I tached it out a few times without any incident. I've also bounced the spark rev limiter at 8200rpm in 2nd gear several times. Even with this, it still might be that the area at the high RPM range wasn't as well tuned as I'd liked it to be. On the 6th and last run on the dyno, the w/b was reading richer than 10:1 when it broke up and cracked the plate. You can see it on the corresponding video. On the 5th run just prior to that 6th, plate-breaking run, you can see the same thing happen along w/ a couple of large poofs of black smoke coming out the exhaust. Perhaps it's possible that the last time I adjusted the alcohol that I didn't take it up as high as I needed and therefore wound up running richer than I originally assumed it was doing. Who knows.
Ok, fair enough. Ask away. I certainly have nothing to hide nor any agenda to unfairly push. What else would you like to know?
B
Plugs, coils,ignition box etc.
What was the actual temp at the point of the misfire?
01-01-07, 06:32 PM
#59
Originally Posted by S3DF
This tuning contest is interesting. Just wondering if any of these engines hold their ideal HP for over 2hrs?
The key to success is learning from your mistakes.
01-01-07, 06:35 PM
#60
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by Boostn7
Not sure why you would be more confident today over 2 days ago, but its your choice and you could continue to ignore the facts.
Any failure or inconsistency of your methanol delivery is goona result on another engine failure.
You don't even have a clue as to why it knocked on the dyno and not on the highway with same timing advance.........oh yeh, bad gas
Why do you keep repeating the same bullshit ?
Depending on set ups and available octane many rotary tuners could tune a car and let the customer know what the limit will be on pump and how much more they could run on race gas........if a customer decides to run higher boost without needed octane then its on them.
I'm really surprised you're not running 100% Methanol by now!!!!
you're the one claiming Alcohol to be the cure to broken motors due to poor quality gas, running a "bullet-proof" AI system that has had its list of issues, re-tunning it over and over and after breaking the motor you bring up bad gas again......go 100% methanol then.
I firmly believe alcohol injection is the cure to broken motors. You don't have to believe it, I can't control what you think or feel, but you're certainly not going to change my mind on it. I've seen what it can do. I've felt it.
You continue to compare pump vs pump+alcohol injection.
I rather have my EFI control all my fuel needs....w/ C16 I could run alot more boost then your pump/alcohol mixture will allow. Add more alcohol and you'll see how things will change again as far as tunning or else you will make less power.
Just realized Howards set up being all apart, why ??????
He also roasted his clutch because of the power he's making due to what his alcohol system was able to afford him. Go figure.
How high in boost do you think you could run with your 70/30 ratio with new turbo/intercooler?
What octane do you think you're at w/ that ratio ?
What octane do you think you're at w/ that ratio ?
I have no idea what the effective octane rating is and I suppose I'll never find out, but I will find out what power can be made depending on whatever ratio of gas to alcohol I use. That I promise you.
Hehehe...sorry, but nothing to clear up. I just don't want every one out there with aux systems to go and make same mistake by using it as a secondary fuel system instead of they were meant for.
If they want to run insane amount of boost fill with C16 or go 100% Methanol !!!
I've been doing this alot longer then you and sometimes common sense goes a long way.
Happy New Year eveybody
JD
If they want to run insane amount of boost fill with C16 or go 100% Methanol !!!
I've been doing this alot longer then you and sometimes common sense goes a long way.
Happy New Year eveybody
JD
Regards,
B
Last edited by BDC; 01-01-07 at 06:48 PM.
01-01-07, 06:39 PM
#61
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by crispeed
What's does your ignition setup have?
Plugs, coils,ignition box etc.
What was the actual temp at the point of the misfire?
Plugs, coils,ignition box etc.
What was the actual temp at the point of the misfire?
Plugs are about 3-4 month old NGK BUR9EQ's all around. No race plugs. Decided to try my hand at making big power w/ hotter plugs assuming a theory of methanol's ability to cool the chambers so much that they wouldn't be warranted, atleast within the range of power I'm trying to achieve.
Air temps were at 110*F at the end of that run. Unsure on EGT's at the time of misfire because I wasn't watching, like an idiot.
B
01-01-07, 06:45 PM
#62
Originally Posted by BDC
Ignition is stock 2nd gen coils and ignitor packs with the addition of a 10 year old Jacobs box on the leadings. I am not even sure if it's still working for all I know.
Plugs are about 3-4 month old NGK BUR9EQ's all around. No race plugs. Decided to try my hand at making big power w/ hotter plugs assuming a theory of methanol's ability to cool the chambers so much that they wouldn't be warranted, atleast within the range of power I'm trying to achieve.
Air temps were at 110*F at the end of that run. Unsure on EGT's at the time of misfire because I wasn't watching, like an idiot.
B
Plugs are about 3-4 month old NGK BUR9EQ's all around. No race plugs. Decided to try my hand at making big power w/ hotter plugs assuming a theory of methanol's ability to cool the chambers so much that they wouldn't be warranted, atleast within the range of power I'm trying to achieve.
Air temps were at 110*F at the end of that run. Unsure on EGT's at the time of misfire because I wasn't watching, like an idiot.
B
Have you opened the motor as yet? What apex seals 3 or 2mm? If it was 3mm then how did the springs look?
01-01-07, 06:50 PM
#63
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by crispeed
Did the motor just crack the housing or did the Apex seals go also?
Have you opened the motor as yet? What apex seals 3 or 2mm? If it was 3mm then how did the springs look?
Have you opened the motor as yet? What apex seals 3 or 2mm? If it was 3mm then how did the springs look?
Haven't opened the motor yet; I don't have any space to at this moment unfortunately. The motor is a 3mm motor.
B
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 01-01-07 at 06:59 PM.
01-02-07, 02:00 PM
#64
BDC Motorsports
Pictures of the plugs, etc.
I removed the spark plugs today. I also started removing stuff around the short block to prep it for being removed. I did verify that the dowel land on the front iron housing cracked long-ways. I have not, however, verified the rear. The photo of the front dowel land is admittedly blurry, but you can barely make the crack out. Here's a few pictures:
01-02-07, 02:09 PM
#65
the plugs do look a little lean but from my experience with the methanol so far it has a tendency to give the plugs a lighter color even when the AFRs are fairly rich.
then again that could be because i run 50% distilled water with the methanol, it tends to keep the ash off the plugs so it is harder to read accurately.
then again that could be because i run 50% distilled water with the methanol, it tends to keep the ash off the plugs so it is harder to read accurately.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 01-02-07 at 02:21 PM.
01-02-07, 02:42 PM
#66
development
LOL - I just read this entire thread
Originally Posted by peachykeenwight
All we want from you is cold, hard facts about HOW your WI works and then SOLID PROOF backing your assumptions. It's not about winning a damn argument on the internet, it's about educating people about this new (in our world) concept! You are, and you have been, THE auxiliary injection guy on this forum and I, and many others, would like to be educated by you -- not treated like trash.
sorry to hear about the motor BDC...but with statements like, "I don't even know if my ignition amp is working"...makes it seem as if you weren't confident enough in your "test subject" to really be looking for solid results.
I have learned a lot from this forum...but never discount the entertainment I get doing it
01-02-07, 03:49 PM
#69
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by dubulup
I believe he has done this several times... pre-turbo injection pressurized by the charge itself. more boost = more water simple as that; then tune fuel and timing.
sorry to hear about the motor BDC...but with statements like, "I don't even know if my ignition amp is working"...makes it seem as if you weren't confident enough in your "test subject" to really be looking for solid results.
I have learned a lot from this forum...but never discount the entertainment I get doing it
sorry to hear about the motor BDC...but with statements like, "I don't even know if my ignition amp is working"...makes it seem as if you weren't confident enough in your "test subject" to really be looking for solid results.
I have learned a lot from this forum...but never discount the entertainment I get doing it
B
01-02-07, 03:50 PM
#70
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by sdminus
Those plugs look toasted as fduk brian.
Scott
Scott
B
01-02-07, 04:31 PM
#71
Cant be bothered anymore
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They just look very white but that could just be the larger percentage of meth that you use compared to what i did. I watched the vids and the miss seems very aparant but its hard to say why ! This maybe of no consequence but last april when i tuned with a high percentage of meth ( differant mixture experimentation ) i had intermittant ignition break up. I was also using bur9eq plugs. If i remember correctly i was tuning at 15 psi or there abouts at 0.78 L. When eva i got about 0.80 L i could get with in 1 or 2 percent of the target before it would spit and cough for seemingly no reason. But at other times it was fine. The situation got worse when i used new plugs as well. In the end i put it down to the air temp changes and the lack of flexability in the AI system i was using.
Scott
Scott
01-02-07, 04:43 PM
#72
BDC Motorsports
Originally Posted by sdminus
They just look very white but that could just be the larger percentage of meth that you use compared to what i did. I watched the vids and the miss seems very aparant but its hard to say why ! This maybe of no consequence but last april when i tuned with a high percentage of meth ( differant mixture experimentation ) i had intermittant ignition break up. I was also using bur9eq plugs. If i remember correctly i was tuning at 15 psi or there abouts at 0.78 L. When eva i got about 0.80 L i could get with in 1 or 2 percent of the target before it would spit and cough for seemingly no reason. But at other times it was fine. The situation got worse when i used new plugs as well. In the end i put it down to the air temp changes and the lack of flexability in the AI system i was using.
Scott
Scott
The plugs physically don't appear to have been worn out at all. They just look kind of funny. I remember after switching to this set of new plugs a few months back that when I took the old ones out they looked like this, also. Perhaps this is indicative of what plugs in a heavier alcohol environment look as opposed to the more common blackened plugs being in an all, 100% gasoline environment. Whatcha think?
At the end of the two last videos of my car on the rollers, you can see the black poofs of smoke as well as year the split-second stutter. Both times it was flooding and was at 'RICH' on the wideband (below 10:1 AFR). Unfortunately, the 2nd run yielded the cracked dowel land on the now verified front plate. I suppose I ought to just go ahead and replace both the front and rear plates.
B
01-02-07, 04:54 PM
#73
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Maybe pete or somebody more in tune with meth powered drag cars could chime in on the plugs or ausrotary.com is a good place to post the question.
What else was strange is that when i used the platinum ones ( which anyone that uses meth should avoid like the plage ) i had no issues at all.
I noticed / it seemed that the 2 puffs of black smoke came whilst still at WOT and just before lift off.
I must admit when you meth comes on the inj duty gets way scary. On the note of the turbo i seem to remember howard saying you are about to drop of the compressor flow chart. Have you concidered a very small pre turbo jet. It may help to bring the turbo back to life or could just cause more problems. Which ever way it would drop the IAT's like a bomb.
Scott
ps we did run pre turbo meth on a 12a turbo with su carb. Worked very nicely
What else was strange is that when i used the platinum ones ( which anyone that uses meth should avoid like the plage ) i had no issues at all.
I noticed / it seemed that the 2 puffs of black smoke came whilst still at WOT and just before lift off.
I must admit when you meth comes on the inj duty gets way scary. On the note of the turbo i seem to remember howard saying you are about to drop of the compressor flow chart. Have you concidered a very small pre turbo jet. It may help to bring the turbo back to life or could just cause more problems. Which ever way it would drop the IAT's like a bomb.
Scott
ps we did run pre turbo meth on a 12a turbo with su carb. Worked very nicely
01-02-07, 07:27 PM
#75
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
i will call jose tomorrow and see what he has to say. i have a feeling he may suspect your plugs. remember you were really leaning on it on the dyno and it is a bit different than the road.
i run a jacobs F3000 on each leading plug along w a MSD 8253 coil for each lead plug and have had zero misfires... even when i started out at 9.0 AFR. i have run up to 7800 full throttle around 10.5 AFR (still in leaning process) and have experienced no misfires or unstable AFRs - EGTs.
i will pass on Jose's comments tomorrow.
howard coleman
i run a jacobs F3000 on each leading plug along w a MSD 8253 coil for each lead plug and have had zero misfires... even when i started out at 9.0 AFR. i have run up to 7800 full throttle around 10.5 AFR (still in leaning process) and have experienced no misfires or unstable AFRs - EGTs.
i will pass on Jose's comments tomorrow.
howard coleman