toluene
05-01-12, 03:30 PM
#1
toluene
given i haven't seen any serious threads about octane and pump gas mixtures with this added into the equation i figured it's about time to get some experience and opinions about this do it yourself race gas.
toluene in a 1/5 mix with premium gas results in almost a 100 octane pump fuel combination. resulting in a much safer fuel for these engines in theory, without the need for all the fuss over running ethanol, ie E85 and upgrading everything running to and from the engine as well as severely hindering your vehicle's range capability.
so who has tried it with any margin of success?
Toluene can be found at hardware and paint stores for less than $10 per gallon, so for less than $30 converts a regular tank of pump gas into super pump gas capable of pushing well over 30psi of boost on most setups. hell, add on straight water auxiliary injection and it may be capable of 50+PSI on pump gas...
please take this with a grain of salt, do not go out and dump half a tank of toluene into your tank and crank up your boost. this is for people with tuning experience and moderate/extremely modified setups who also like to experiment.
we need a little more black magic to keep these engines competetive, let alone in one piece still. i've personally tuned some setups over 25psi on straight 91 octane pump with water/alcohol injection, another supplement should be able to max out most large setups while still being reasonably safe. pump gas in itself is unsafe in anything under 20psi on most any setup out there with a rotary engine, giving it a rather low limitation.
toluene in a 1/5 mix with premium gas results in almost a 100 octane pump fuel combination. resulting in a much safer fuel for these engines in theory, without the need for all the fuss over running ethanol, ie E85 and upgrading everything running to and from the engine as well as severely hindering your vehicle's range capability.
so who has tried it with any margin of success?
Toluene can be found at hardware and paint stores for less than $10 per gallon, so for less than $30 converts a regular tank of pump gas into super pump gas capable of pushing well over 30psi of boost on most setups. hell, add on straight water auxiliary injection and it may be capable of 50+PSI on pump gas...
please take this with a grain of salt, do not go out and dump half a tank of toluene into your tank and crank up your boost. this is for people with tuning experience and moderate/extremely modified setups who also like to experiment.
we need a little more black magic to keep these engines competetive, let alone in one piece still. i've personally tuned some setups over 25psi on straight 91 octane pump with water/alcohol injection, another supplement should be able to max out most large setups while still being reasonably safe. pump gas in itself is unsafe in anything under 20psi on most any setup out there with a rotary engine, giving it a rather low limitation.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 05-01-12 at 03:54 PM.
05-07-12, 11:37 AM
#3
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you know its interesting that the fuel they chose doesn't have the highest octane, or the highest calorific value (if you haven't read the honda paper, the 89? F1 engines were limited to 2.5 bar of boost, and 150liters of fuel, so fuel economy was very important, hence the calories/L)
i guess the real question though, is how do we evaluate the fuel that is available at the pump? especially if the octane number isn't the important part!
i guess the real question though, is how do we evaluate the fuel that is available at the pump? especially if the octane number isn't the important part!
05-07-12, 04:21 PM
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lol, yes that whole paper outlines how unusual the fuel is, i picture it semi solid at room temp, like crisco
05-29-12, 09:08 AM
#7
i will probably try seeing how it does with a 3:1 mix of 91 and toluene once i get the the twin charger all set, it will need something on that level to keep the engine together.
i don't really like E85 or any strictly alcohol mix, mainly just because of the amount of fuel you need and the limitations it presents. there is no way you could drive cross country with E85 but i could run 91 octane on low boost/highway cruising and the mix with toluene for high boost, looking at the fuel charts it shouldn't even need a different map.
i don't really like E85 or any strictly alcohol mix, mainly just because of the amount of fuel you need and the limitations it presents. there is no way you could drive cross country with E85 but i could run 91 octane on low boost/highway cruising and the mix with toluene for high boost, looking at the fuel charts it shouldn't even need a different map.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 05-29-12 at 09:13 AM.
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05-30-12, 05:56 PM
#9
Senior Member
just a little humor
05-30-12, 08:14 PM
#10
1 gallon is about $14.
http://www.acehardwaresuperstore.com...rs/110825.html
06-01-12, 11:17 PM
#13
Someone I know was using a 50/50 blend of premium pump + toluene. He had a tune for leaded oxygenated race fuel and a tune for the pump/tol blend. Car was a GT4202R RB30DET auto highstall 9" all the rest of of it. Very quick car.
Anyway point is performance shops do these things, clearly from all the RA168E data at the very least toluene is a good fuel for high powered long range running.
Anyway point is performance shops do these things, clearly from all the RA168E data at the very least toluene is a good fuel for high powered long range running.
06-02-12, 09:33 PM
#17
Senior Member
i found 1 places that sell toluene 10 min ride but like 10 places in town that sell xylene they said its the same.
06-03-12, 05:27 PM
#19
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06-03-12, 05:36 PM
#20
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From Wikipedia:
Toluene can be used as an octane booster in gasoline fuels used in internal combustion engines. Toluene at 86% by volume fueled all the turbo Formula 1 teams in the 1980s, first pioneered by the Honda team. The remaining 14% was a "filler" of n-heptane, to reduce the octane to meet Formula 1 fuel restrictions. Toluene at 100% can be used as a fuel for both two-stroke and four-stroke engines; however, due to the density of the fuel and other factors, the fuel does not vaporize easily unless preheated to 70 degrees Celsius (Honda accomplished this in their Formula 1 cars by routing the fuel lines through the muffler system to heat the fuel). Toluene also poses similar problems as alcohol fuels, as it eats through standard rubber fuel lines and has no lubricating properties, as standard gasoline does,[citation needed] which can break down fuel pumps and cause upper cylinder bore wear
Toluene can be used as an octane booster in gasoline fuels used in internal combustion engines. Toluene at 86% by volume fueled all the turbo Formula 1 teams in the 1980s, first pioneered by the Honda team. The remaining 14% was a "filler" of n-heptane, to reduce the octane to meet Formula 1 fuel restrictions. Toluene at 100% can be used as a fuel for both two-stroke and four-stroke engines; however, due to the density of the fuel and other factors, the fuel does not vaporize easily unless preheated to 70 degrees Celsius (Honda accomplished this in their Formula 1 cars by routing the fuel lines through the muffler system to heat the fuel). Toluene also poses similar problems as alcohol fuels, as it eats through standard rubber fuel lines and has no lubricating properties, as standard gasoline does,[citation needed] which can break down fuel pumps and cause upper cylinder bore wear
Last edited by vincentrx7; 06-03-12 at 05:37 PM. Reason: to give source of info
06-03-12, 05:44 PM
#21
have not heard any issues with it on standard fuel systems with the recommended 20-30% mix ratios. some people have complained about it burning out emissions components on cat and smog equipped cars, which i do not think we really care about that.. if you want more power those are the first things to go!
http://sportscarforums.com/f13/tolue...oice-3257.html
read a bit down, toluene they have listed at #2 in that article as well as equations earlier on in the article.
Xylene is more common but does not vaporize as easily as toluene(which is why most recommend toluene as a max 30% supplement, read the previous post) and isn't as recommended but is still similar in chemical makeup as well as octane rating(it is higher actually at 117octane raw versus toluene at 114).
http://sportscarforums.com/f13/tolue...oice-3257.html
read a bit down, toluene they have listed at #2 in that article as well as equations earlier on in the article.
Xylene is more common but does not vaporize as easily as toluene(which is why most recommend toluene as a max 30% supplement, read the previous post) and isn't as recommended but is still similar in chemical makeup as well as octane rating(it is higher actually at 117octane raw versus toluene at 114).
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 06-03-12 at 05:50 PM.
06-04-12, 09:22 AM
#25
when you hear of people running 20+ psi and cracking irons that is the pump limit. 18-20psi is the MAX that super pump gas can support.
yes i have tested it and even tested 87 octane under boost back a number of years ago, you can run 87 in a stock TII but it is borderline safe to 10psi.
yes i have tested it and even tested 87 octane under boost back a number of years ago, you can run 87 in a stock TII but it is borderline safe to 10psi.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 06-04-12 at 09:24 AM.