toluene
06-05-12, 08:51 AM
#29
water is the best knock suppressor but it also doesn't generate power, high octane fuels burn and produce power. race high octane fuels being more ideal but you can supplement knock suppression with straight water also but you need lots of it and a bit more fine touch in the tuning process leaving less room for error.
to get that much boost safely you need to run 2-3 times as much WI as i mentioned and have a very stout ignition system.
to get that much boost safely you need to run 2-3 times as much WI as i mentioned and have a very stout ignition system.
06-05-12, 09:53 AM
#31
no E85 option? while i realistically don't care for it with it's low energy content it can give pretty amazing results.
sometimes i promote pump gas a little too thoroughly but that is also because i sometimes drive my car thousands of miles one way. with the upcoming supercharger/turbocharged twin setup i know just pump and WI won't cut it.
sometimes i promote pump gas a little too thoroughly but that is also because i sometimes drive my car thousands of miles one way. with the upcoming supercharger/turbocharged twin setup i know just pump and WI won't cut it.
06-05-12, 10:40 AM
#33
no E85 option? while i realistically don't care for it with it's low energy content it can give pretty amazing results.
sometimes i promote pump gas a little too thoroughly but that is also because i sometimes drive my car thousands of miles one way. with the upcoming supercharger/turbocharged twin setup i know just pump and WI won't cut it.
sometimes i promote pump gas a little too thoroughly but that is also because i sometimes drive my car thousands of miles one way. with the upcoming supercharger/turbocharged twin setup i know just pump and WI won't cut it.
Don't have a problem with that either. I'm somewhere around 650 RWHP @ 30 PSI now. This is on E85 fuel that cost $3.50 a gallon.
Course I use 30% more, but am VERY happy with the results.
06-05-12, 11:11 AM
#34
Senior Member
But if one wants to stay petro, why not just go to your nearby airport and get 100LL av gas? Local price is ~ $5.50 per gal. And would the caloric density be greater than the gas/toulene mix?
All we get here in CA @ the pump is 91. Going rate is ~ $4.30 per gal.
With Toulene @ ~ $15 per gal, a 5:1 ratio comes out to $6.08 per gal.
And all I get is roughly 97 (?) octane.
PS- is that an S4, S5, or REW under the hood??
Last edited by Clubuser; 06-05-12 at 11:31 AM.
06-05-12, 02:14 PM
#35
Seems E85 is then very hard to beat as long as it's easily available any where you go. 30% more usage implies ~$4.50 ($3.5 x 1.3) per gal when comparing to petro.
But if one wants to stay petro, why not just go to your nearby airport and get 100LL av gas? Local price is ~ $5.50 per gal. And would the caloric density be greater than the gas/toulene mix?
All we get here in CA @ the pump is 91. Going rate is ~ $4.30 per gal.
With Toulene @ ~ $15 per gal, a 5:1 ratio comes out to $6.08 per gal.
And all I get is roughly 97 (?) octane.
PS- is that an S4, S5, or REW under the hood??
But if one wants to stay petro, why not just go to your nearby airport and get 100LL av gas? Local price is ~ $5.50 per gal. And would the caloric density be greater than the gas/toulene mix?
All we get here in CA @ the pump is 91. Going rate is ~ $4.30 per gal.
With Toulene @ ~ $15 per gal, a 5:1 ratio comes out to $6.08 per gal.
And all I get is roughly 97 (?) octane.
PS- is that an S4, S5, or REW under the hood??
Actually once you convert to E85, you can make a gas map and just fill up with gas if you want. Easy as changing your map.
Anyway...this is about tolene.........sorry I got off topic
06-05-12, 08:06 PM
#36
E85 is out of the question. we only have one pump in town. My plan is to just drive the car once in a while and maybe track events (drag and road race). But im cautious of how long the fuel will last sitting in my tank. I dont wanna have to pump my fuel out of my car everytime im done driving it and it sits in the garage.
06-06-12, 08:11 AM
#37
E85 is out of the question. we only have one pump in town. My plan is to just drive the car once in a while and maybe track events (drag and road race). But im cautious of how long the fuel will last sitting in my tank. I dont wanna have to pump my fuel out of my car everytime im done driving it and it sits in the garage.
Yeah...because of it's corosive propertys, you can't let it sit for long periods of time. It will pit your injectors and make them worthless.
I am 110% sold on E85 tho. You can give it as much boost as you want and it won't even hickup.
06-06-12, 12:39 PM
#39
No, but if you have it available, you should give it a shot.
No stock ECU will handle it, so if your car is stock, forget it.
I premix pretty heavily, so I think that saves my injectors from the hygroscopic coorsiveness.
I ran 25 PSI @ 13:1 AFR's and it didn't even give a hint of detonation. I wouldn't try that with gas.
No stock ECU will handle it, so if your car is stock, forget it.
I premix pretty heavily, so I think that saves my injectors from the hygroscopic coorsiveness.
I ran 25 PSI @ 13:1 AFR's and it didn't even give a hint of detonation. I wouldn't try that with gas.
06-06-12, 04:01 PM
#41
Senior Member
according to post #3 in this thread:
http://bbs.clubplanet.com/useless-bl...race-fuel.html
i calculate a 20% mix toluene + 80% 93 octane = 96.5.
i.e.: .20(114)+.80(93)
why not xylene instead w/its higher octane? cheaper too.:
http://www.acehardwaresuperstore.com...ners/5847.html
06-10-12, 05:14 PM
#43
Pistons are for pussy's
Karack, i know that when prepping Toulene people mix it with ATF due to it being more corrosive and less lubricating than gasoline.
Do you think i can mix it with 2-cycle oil instead of ATF as i am about to start premixing and just would get out of the way everytime i fill up?
Do you think i can mix it with 2-cycle oil instead of ATF as i am about to start premixing and just would get out of the way everytime i fill up?
06-10-12, 11:00 PM
#44
Karack, i know that when prepping Toulene people mix it with ATF due to it being more corrosive and less lubricating than gasoline.
Do you think i can mix it with 2-cycle oil instead of ATF as i am about to start premixing and just would get out of the way everytime i fill up?
Do you think i can mix it with 2-cycle oil instead of ATF as i am about to start premixing and just would get out of the way everytime i fill up?
06-17-12, 09:27 AM
#46
17 second FD
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I've always had an interest in seeing what Toluene can do to raise the limitations of the engine. I'm currently running 93 on a BW S366 and AquaMist HFS-3 with windshield washer fluid. I had a very conservative tune by Enzo, who told me that 21psi was the safest tune to make considerable power using pump gas. I'm only making approximately 450rwhp with this setup. What I would like to do is add 30% Toluene to the equation and see what it can do for me. Any ideas on what max psi I should tune to using that mix(93+AI+30% CH3)?
06-17-12, 12:16 PM
#47
this is my rule of thumb for rotaries, 18psi is the threshold for minimum knock level with 91 octane pump gas in the US. every 2AKI(pump gas numbers) octane points gives you approximately 4 psi of knock suppression. with a 30% mix of toluene it would add about 3 octane points bumping you up about 6psi of knock suppression moving the raw pump gas(no AI added into the equation yet) to about 24psi of safety. add in the AI and you gain about 4psi of safety per 500cc's injected with a maximum of 49/51 alcohol/water mix(less alcohol and more water actually adds more knock suppression) which realistically gives you a roof of 28psi even with a conservative AI injector size.
some people have pushed 21psi(some pumps do list 93 octane with AKI figures, most western states max at 91 octane) on just pump gas before without any issue, just for reference but that is hardly safe IMO.
please note that the 100 octane figure i gave is based on RON(research octane numbers, what race gas uses mainly). pump gas in the US uses a calculation based off of AKI figures and is actually about 97 octane according to RON calculations. 20% toluene adds about 2.5RON octane points so 30% would add about 3 points.
the highest race fuel i can seem to find is leaded VP113 which is 113AKI(pump gas figure, RON+MON/2) which would allow 62PSI of knock suppression according to my calculations without the addition of AI in a rotary engine.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating[/url
for safety reasons i generally only tune 15% less than the knock threshhold of the rated fuel. for 91AKI that is 16psi max, as ambient temps and internal combustion temps rise knock suppression goes down.
compression level also is a consideration, these figures are based off of a 9.0:1 turbocharged rotary engine. higher compression engines will drop knock suppression figures by about 20% per .4 compression added.
this is just an observation and estimate through my personal research and testing with these engines, not to be used as concrete figures but what i believe to be close to accurate. ambient temps, intercooler efficiency and turbine sizing as well as tuning obviously play a big part in how easily an engine will detonate even at lower levels.
some people have pushed 21psi(some pumps do list 93 octane with AKI figures, most western states max at 91 octane) on just pump gas before without any issue, just for reference but that is hardly safe IMO.
please note that the 100 octane figure i gave is based on RON(research octane numbers, what race gas uses mainly). pump gas in the US uses a calculation based off of AKI figures and is actually about 97 octane according to RON calculations. 20% toluene adds about 2.5RON octane points so 30% would add about 3 points.
the highest race fuel i can seem to find is leaded VP113 which is 113AKI(pump gas figure, RON+MON/2) which would allow 62PSI of knock suppression according to my calculations without the addition of AI in a rotary engine.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating[/url
for safety reasons i generally only tune 15% less than the knock threshhold of the rated fuel. for 91AKI that is 16psi max, as ambient temps and internal combustion temps rise knock suppression goes down.
compression level also is a consideration, these figures are based off of a 9.0:1 turbocharged rotary engine. higher compression engines will drop knock suppression figures by about 20% per .4 compression added.
this is just an observation and estimate through my personal research and testing with these engines, not to be used as concrete figures but what i believe to be close to accurate. ambient temps, intercooler efficiency and turbine sizing as well as tuning obviously play a big part in how easily an engine will detonate even at lower levels.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 06-17-12 at 12:45 PM.
07-01-12, 10:45 AM
#48
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you know its interesting that the fuel they chose doesn't have the highest octane, or the highest calorific value (if you haven't read the honda paper, the 89? F1 engines were limited to 2.5 bar of boost, and 150liters of fuel, so fuel economy was very important, hence the calories/L)
i guess the real question though, is how do we evaluate the fuel that is available at the pump? especially if the octane number isn't the important part!
i guess the real question though, is how do we evaluate the fuel that is available at the pump? especially if the octane number isn't the important part!
09-18-12, 09:58 AM
#49
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Karack, i'm very interested in how you came up with 62psi as a knock threshold in our engines with 113 RON fuel. And does that boost pressure take into effect intake porting, or is that on stock ports?
The 80's F1 cars were limited in RON to 102, hence the mixture with heptane and iso-octane. Their main reason for using Toluene was not only the octane and knock suppressing qualities it gave (even at higher intake/fuel temperatures, helping BSFC) but also the density of it, making for less frequent re-fueling.
Also interesting was the fact that even given the same RON of the 3 mixtures posted by Arghx, the fuel mixture with the highest concentration of Toluene resulted in higher possible ignition advance and thus knock tolerance. Octane is not everything, so I'm learning!
I have some Xylene I picked up a while back to try, just need to put an engine together first to test it
I figured with Xylene due to the slightly higher Octane rating, you could get away with less and suffer less from the poor vaporization characteristics, since the two chemicals are quite similar.
I wonder why F1 didn't consider Xylene over Toluene?
The 80's F1 cars were limited in RON to 102, hence the mixture with heptane and iso-octane. Their main reason for using Toluene was not only the octane and knock suppressing qualities it gave (even at higher intake/fuel temperatures, helping BSFC) but also the density of it, making for less frequent re-fueling.
Also interesting was the fact that even given the same RON of the 3 mixtures posted by Arghx, the fuel mixture with the highest concentration of Toluene resulted in higher possible ignition advance and thus knock tolerance. Octane is not everything, so I'm learning!
I have some Xylene I picked up a while back to try, just need to put an engine together first to test it
I figured with Xylene due to the slightly higher Octane rating, you could get away with less and suffer less from the poor vaporization characteristics, since the two chemicals are quite similar.I wonder why F1 didn't consider Xylene over Toluene?
09-18-12, 11:08 AM
#50
Senior Member
my question is what max boost can the FC turbo block and FD block withstand for more than a few seconds? 62 psi @ 8500 rpm we're looking @ around 1,500 bhp. doubt these engines will stay together for more than a second at them levels.
Last edited by Clubuser; 09-18-12 at 11:10 AM.