AdaptronicAus

Hi all,

Here's how I went setting it up on my car. Certainly it does something, and the ignition cutting hasn't hurt the engine as various people told me it would, but using only the wheel studs the accuracy doesn't seem to be good enough to do smooth TC.

Next step I'll try to find the ABS components to put onto my hubs and use those instead... or make up my own trigger disks but I don't like that idea.

Here's also an intro to one of our most popular race tracks for novices like me to learn on:


This is also the track I'll be driving at the 6 hour regularity in July

XLR8

iTrader: (52)

Great work Andy! Looking forward to seeing how this pans out. It is on my future plans list.

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

What is all required to get traction control working on an RX7? It seems like you have a third party logger and extra sensors. Does the Select ECU have the capability to take 4 wheel speeds as inputs with the rest of the RX7 functions still intact?

EB Turbo

AdaptronicAus

Hi EB, yes the Select ECU has 4 wheel speed inputs.

By default, speed input 1 connects to the gearbox speed sensor signal from the dash, but the other 3 speed inputs are on an internal connector within the ECU. So on my car I don't use the gearbox speed sensor (I have a dash with a mechanical speedo so it needs a speedo cable) and I just have the four wheel speed sensors connected into the ECU. I don't have ABS but I'll be sourcing the hubs / etc for that for my car.

So on the RX7, currently you'd need to add 4 separate wheel speed sensors and wire them in.

I know Motec don't recommend piggybacking off the ABS sensors, and I think that's for liability reasons (ie they don't want people stuffing up their ABS). I have to check the ABS sensor levels on the RX7 to see if we can do that. The wheel speed inputs don't connect into the factory ECU (only to the ABS) so there would be some wiring involved.


The logging setup in my car is:

1) Race Technology DL1 logger, which also does the lap times, G sensing, GPS etc.
2) Race Technology Dash 3 display, which is just for my benefit (I can see lap times, Gs, coolant temperature, fuel pressure etc while driving)
3) Race Technology Video 4 - this takes the 2 camera inputs as well as the data from the logger and overlays the dash picture, and records it as one video stream. It also records the data separately, so in this case I was just looking at the data recorded by the Video 4, not by the DL1 (although it's the same data)
4) Race Technology Adaptronic ECU interface

On the topic of the ECU interface, RT implemented our protocol so it can be logged by the DL1 / Video 4 - and their updated Dash 2 has built-in logging now.

I have found in general these ECU interfaces seem a little bit flakey, in that they sometimes don't communicate and when they don't communicate properly, they don't "recover". Also I kept asking them to implement more channels and it wasn't a priority for them so this gives us more control!

So now you can use that, or you can set the ECU to output the RT data stream directly so you don't need the ECU interface. The only time when you do need the interface is if you need to communicate from the dash back to the logger - for example if you're using a Dash 2 which has separate analog inputs on it and you want to log those as well. In my case I'm only using the Dash 3 / Video 4 as display / logging, no inputs - so I could do it without the interface. I happen to have the interface there because I set it all up before we implemented the RT direct output.

Cheers!
Andy

EB Turbo

iTrader: (1)

So you need to open the ECU to access these pins?


Are you reviewing the logs with Adatronic data or RaceTechnology data? To really implement road race style traction control you need to have a proper 2 axis accelerometer. Trying to do it with a single differential to define the steering wheel as being turned is not all too accurate. Another important part is datalogging. If you cannot log the proper channels, Slip%, lateral accel, inline accel,... and view the data correctly, it is difficult to determine proper thresholds. If you are just correcting for large driving errors and not really nitpicking full traction control it will work well enough. It seems complicated enough that most FD owners will never add the wheel speeds to use the traction control feature.

EB Turbo

AdaptronicAus

Yes, you need to open the ECU to access these.

The main benefit I had in mind was to help less experienced drivers put power down especially on cars that come on boost hard, more of an aid to less experienced drivers like myself than as a way for the hardcore drivers to get the last 0.5% of performance.

My experience with the hardcore drivers is that they would kind of be a bit insulted at this suggestion that it would help them! I suggested setting up boost by gear to Ric and he just said "nope, that's my job, I'll do that with my right foot" and talking to some of the pro class time attack (the Australian one... they call themselves "World Time Attack Challenge" which I think could be a little bit of delusions of grandeur) car builders who hire professional drivers and they said the same thing...

I was looking at the data from the Race Technology, and that logs 2 axis Gs as well. I also have a steering angle input into the datalogger, but to be honest that's going to be a lot more hardcore than people other than hardcore race teams are going to go.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

For guys looking for wheel speed sensors;

Honeywell GT101 Single Channel Hall Effect Sensor (Wheel Speed, RPM trigger etc)

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Damn! That's 'spensive!


Honeywell GT101 Hall Sensor

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Thanks Chris !

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Got into a situation recently that reminded me to update this info. Tried to use a GT101 on a small diameter 36-1 wheel on a Mazda KLZE and it wouldn't work. Swapped to the Cherry sensor and everything was happy.

One thing to remember when trying to use a Hall sensor, tooth gap and tooth size a important. The GT101, especially, has a fairly large sensor face. That means it's pretty easy to have two teeth on the wheel activating the sensor at the same time, if they're spaced closely together. Here is the datasheet for the GT101. The dimensions for the teeth on the wheel must be observed. http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.php?ci_id=50369

This sensor has a smaller sensor face and that will allow it to run with teeth that have a smaller gap. Cherry "red" Hall Effect Sensor And here it it's datasheet. http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/se...007_Series.pdf While the datasheet describes identical tooth dimensions as the GT101, experience says the Cherry sensor works where the Honeywell will not.

Another option, that's always worked well for me, is using an A/D converter with the stock VR wheelspeed sensors. Saves having to fab mounts to make the Hall sensors fit. Just wire the VR sensors into the A/D converter and allow it to change the sine-wave AC input to the square-wave DC output the ECU wants to see. The Haltech DR2 is an example of such an A/D converter. http://www.lms-efi.com/sunshop/index...t_detail&p=130

MarkG

Great info! Thanks for sharing

$lacker

iTrader: (9)

Why can't the ECU be programmed to recognize and interpret the analog data from the stock ABS sensors? That sounds like the best method

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Two issues.

One, the ECU needs to see a digital signal, not the analog VR signal. So, at a minimum, you will need an A/D converter. Four channel converter gets spendy.

Two, you run into issues trying to split the signal between the ABS module and the ECU. Out can't just splice into the stock harness and connect the ECU or A/D converter in parallel. Splitting the signal requires dedicated electronics to isolate the ABS module. If you've deleted the ABS, you avoid this issue and the A/D converter becomes an attractive solution.

On the Syvecs install we just did, we fitted additional wheelspeed sensors since we were retaining the ABS. We actually used VR sensors with that ECU since it can accept an analog or digital signal. After doing that job, I don't we any way you're going to fit a GT101 or any other Hall sensor that I can think of to the front of an FD. The ABS tone ring sits inside the brake disk. There is just no room to make it work.

$lacker

iTrader: (9)

So there's really no retaining the ABS and having LC/TC on an FD
An Adaptronic ECU would be a much better value if it could replace both a PFC and Racelogic TC, so that's unfortunate

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

There is way. It's just not a simple, bolt-on process.

Doesn't the Adaptronic only look at one speed source anyway? If that's the case, a single Hall sensor could be mounted to the rear fairly easily with a little fab work.

MarkG

I haven't tried this, but I know the Adaptronic can read from 4 x reluctor/digital wheel speed speed inputs (see pic). Except for the e420d which has only 1 x VSS input.

Let me just dig some more info about the piggyback install.

Cheers.

MarkG

Hi guys,

OK, so I just learned that we actually have this interface box/board, to be able to use factory ABS sensors. But it needs to be tested on a real RX7 (we'll be working on it). So then it would do the same as the PFC and the RaceLogic, with the added benefit of being able to interface to race dashes like the Race Technology, Motec etc.

According to Andy, what he found with the reluctor inputs on the ECU is that they’re noise sensitive and if you have ground offsets between the ABS unit and the ECU then you get spurious readings… so hence the box.

I'll report back after we test it, just give me a bit of time because I need to test this on a mate's car.

Thanks.

indio84

iTrader: (7)

Interested in this. Sub.

IAN

iTrader: (3)

Will this be availabel for the FC? Even though I cut mine out 15 years ago?

MarkG

Hi Ian, would you know if the FC ones are reluctor types?

Guys, sorry for the delay on this, the test car (my mate's RX7) got actually damaged a week before we were meant to do this.

IAN

iTrader: (3)

Unfortunately I do not know. I can provide a drawing if that makes a difference from the factory manual.

Ian

TeamRX8

iTrader: (2)

Not that it would benefit an FD3, but this sounds like a great reason to develop a CANbus interface for vehicles that could benefit from it.

MarkG

Ian, lets have a look, can you email it to me please?

TeamRX8, CAN communications is on the list of features to add, but probably on the next platform ECUs.

Thanks guys!

bowlcutsaresweet

Any chance you could post a schematic for the box once it's tested?

MarkG

Will do mate