Adaptronic Adaptronic Select FD Series 6 base map
06-12-13, 09:52 PM
#27
Map 5
Hi All,
Here's a few updates while I'm waiting for my Adaptronic / PLX interface. Notable changes:
- Boosts to and tuned at 11 PSI
- wastegate duty cycles are for a MAC valve
- I've added considerable fuel in the idle area at high vacuum. This prevents stalls when coming off of a long downshift / rev with the throttle closed
James
Here's a few updates while I'm waiting for my Adaptronic / PLX interface. Notable changes:
- Boosts to and tuned at 11 PSI
- wastegate duty cycles are for a MAC valve
- I've added considerable fuel in the idle area at high vacuum. This prevents stalls when coming off of a long downshift / rev with the throttle closed
James
06-15-13, 10:53 PM
#28
Gettin' off the juice!
So, I had a solenoid go bad. This coupled with the need to install new injectors, pull my unused stock coils and replace my throttle body coolant line finally motivated me to pull my UIM.
Check out the attached pics! This residue is from "Boost Juice 50/50 meth / water. Between this and the fact that if my water injection fails I would be loosing detonation suppression (the water) on top of leaning out (the meth) made me decide to go to distilled water only.
I noticed that when I installed the 1300cc secondaries the motor idled rough and missed ... after one free rev WOT run to redline. I adjusted the injector setting in the ECU software (changed 850cc secondaries to 1300) and everything immediately smoothed out. Andy, if you read this thread, I'm curious to know why? I wouldn't have expected this to affect idle? Just looking to learn / understand.
I'll post a map back once I've added extra fuel to make up for the meth. I'm thinking that it will help those that are using this a a base map with out it. Also, It'll give an idea of how well the VE tuning adapted to the new injectors.
Check out the attached pics! This residue is from "Boost Juice 50/50 meth / water. Between this and the fact that if my water injection fails I would be loosing detonation suppression (the water) on top of leaning out (the meth) made me decide to go to distilled water only.
I noticed that when I installed the 1300cc secondaries the motor idled rough and missed ... after one free rev WOT run to redline. I adjusted the injector setting in the ECU software (changed 850cc secondaries to 1300) and everything immediately smoothed out. Andy, if you read this thread, I'm curious to know why? I wouldn't have expected this to affect idle? Just looking to learn / understand.
I'll post a map back once I've added extra fuel to make up for the meth. I'm thinking that it will help those that are using this a a base map with out it. Also, It'll give an idea of how well the VE tuning adapted to the new injectors.
06-18-13, 01:01 AM
#29
Yes, good question. Changing the secondary injector size alone shouldn't affect anything on idle or cruise... Do you have a log of before and after?
We have a chain of juice stalls in malls here called "Boost Juice" so that cracked me up
We have a chain of juice stalls in malls here called "Boost Juice" so that cracked me up
06-18-13, 11:02 AM
#30
I have tuning logs that show WOT runs before and after but nothing that shows idle with the 850cc secondaries and then the 1300cc ones. If WOT logs will help, let me know. I'll post them.
I might have a few more hints though. So the car idled fine, I went to red line once (a free rev) and then the rough idle started. After this I updated the secondary injectors to 1300cc and everything smoothed out. Old news, I know. What's strange is what happened next.
I took the car out for a bit of tuning the next day. It was running very rich at WOT and after a bit of looking at the logs I realized that the secondary injector duty was about the same as before I had swapped the injectors. I was thinking that 850 to 1300 should drop the duty by about 50%. I jumped to the injector tab and noticed that the engine size had somehow switched itself to 800cc from 1300cc. The injector size had moved from 1300 back to 850 as well. I've since reset everything and have since been checking in a very paranoid way. Nothing has moved.
I'm bringing this up as a few weeks back I was playing with "Do D immediately" on the idle tab. I ultimately left it unchecked but noticed that while I was tinkering with it it seemed to have a mind of its own, setting and un-setting itself roughly each time that I uploaded an updated map to the ECU.
Everything has stopped changing now and my paranoid checking hasn't seen any more phantom changes. The next time that I change a setting that I've never touched before I'm going to take note of the exact steps. I might even play with this a bit and see if I can figure out how to reproduce it. For a while I was thinking that I was just being sloppy but I'm starting to think that I've noticed a software glitch.
I'll post more data if I can find something conclusive.
I might have a few more hints though. So the car idled fine, I went to red line once (a free rev) and then the rough idle started. After this I updated the secondary injectors to 1300cc and everything smoothed out. Old news, I know. What's strange is what happened next.
I took the car out for a bit of tuning the next day. It was running very rich at WOT and after a bit of looking at the logs I realized that the secondary injector duty was about the same as before I had swapped the injectors. I was thinking that 850 to 1300 should drop the duty by about 50%. I jumped to the injector tab and noticed that the engine size had somehow switched itself to 800cc from 1300cc. The injector size had moved from 1300 back to 850 as well. I've since reset everything and have since been checking in a very paranoid way. Nothing has moved.
I'm bringing this up as a few weeks back I was playing with "Do D immediately" on the idle tab. I ultimately left it unchecked but noticed that while I was tinkering with it it seemed to have a mind of its own, setting and un-setting itself roughly each time that I uploaded an updated map to the ECU.
Everything has stopped changing now and my paranoid checking hasn't seen any more phantom changes. The next time that I change a setting that I've never touched before I'm going to take note of the exact steps. I might even play with this a bit and see if I can figure out how to reproduce it. For a while I was thinking that I was just being sloppy but I'm starting to think that I've noticed a software glitch.
I'll post more data if I can find something conclusive.
06-24-13, 10:46 AM
#32
Status update:
I've has to add a notable amount of fuel near the top end of the RPM / boost range. No surprise there as my Aquamist was tied to my secondary injectors. They were nearly maxed out and so the Aquamist was injecting lots of water/meth.
I'll post a map up in a day or so. It's taken a while as I've been troubleshooting my A/C (thank you Andy!) and trying to figure out a boost / clacking issue. When I go WOT from 2000 RPM in 2nd gear (or 1st) there is a clacking issue from under the hood. It sounds and affects boost as the Charge Control might. I can't remember when this started. Perhaps one to two months ago. It seems to happen between 3 and 4 thousand RPM. Also if I get on the throttle gradually it doesn't happen. Strange. I checked CCV solenoid when I was swapping the injectors. This isn't it.
Anyway, I need to solve the clacking issue before I go further. Ideas are welcome as I seem to have hit a wall. Perhaps someone can jog my stock (BNR) sequential troubleshooting memory.
06-27-13, 10:58 PM
#33
Map 6
Hello gang,
This map is tuned with my 1300cc secondaries and strait water injection, no meth. I lost about 5% duty cycle on the high end. no surprise really. In the areas where the water / meth wasn't being injected the VE tuning required no adjustment ... impressive.
I've started tuning idle to match the fix (link) for my A/C.
Lastly, there's a lot of additional fuel in the cells that transition from vacuum to boost. This is needed to hold the AFR down near 13:1 at WOT. This was present on my PFC as well but harder to see as Wari's 3D graph wasn't present. I'd say that it's an accelerator pump (predict map table) issue except that it shows up even when I log it across 1000 RPMs for several seconds. I'm curious to hear any explanations that folks have.
As for the clanking issue I've verified that it's not the charge control valve and am starting to think that I have a failing motor mount. I'll have to put the car up on ramps when I have a moment.
James
This map is tuned with my 1300cc secondaries and strait water injection, no meth. I lost about 5% duty cycle on the high end. no surprise really. In the areas where the water / meth wasn't being injected the VE tuning required no adjustment ... impressive.
I've started tuning idle to match the fix (link) for my A/C.
Lastly, there's a lot of additional fuel in the cells that transition from vacuum to boost. This is needed to hold the AFR down near 13:1 at WOT. This was present on my PFC as well but harder to see as Wari's 3D graph wasn't present. I'd say that it's an accelerator pump (predict map table) issue except that it shows up even when I log it across 1000 RPMs for several seconds. I'm curious to hear any explanations that folks have.
As for the clanking issue I've verified that it's not the charge control valve and am starting to think that I have a failing motor mount. I'll have to put the car up on ramps when I have a moment.
James
07-03-13, 12:52 AM
#34
Thanks for sharing James! Is the additional fuel required due to RPM rate (ie rate of RPM increase) or rate of boost increase do you think?
Is it too rich if you were to drive there in the steady state?
Is it too rich if you were to drive there in the steady state?
07-25-13, 11:33 PM
#35
Map 7
Hi Andy, thanks for the reply. The car doesn't seem to run rich in steady state but I need to focus on this a bit to figure it out. Stay tuned.
I've been delayed in responding due to my clanking issue. This was simple really ... backfiring ... my stock plugs badly needed replacement. It's amazing what a high powered coil will do to stock plugs in 3000 miles. My electrodes were stubs. Long story short, I dropped a heat range and used an iridium plug. The backfiring is gone and things are back to normal.
Given the new plugs the portion of my map that represented the backfiring had really leaned out. I've attached a new 14psi map where this is corrected. Watch for leaning out in the 3000-4000ish range if you use the 11psi map that I've already posted.
It's been heating up here in SoCal. When my intake air temps rise the idle drops off and sometimes stalls. To compensate, I've added to the "correction for air temp" table under "open loop idle control". This is still a work in progress but it's close. This adjustment makes a big difference, especially when a heat soaked (was parked) engine runs for the first 3 or so minutes.
I've spent more time tuning idle than any other area!
Lastly, there's a 16psi map attached as well! The VE tuning made it relatively easy to jump to this map and so, here it is! Hmm ... easy to tune but I did have to stop and replace the stock solenoid that controls pressure to the turbo actuator. It started to leak near 14psi. I replaced it with a MAC solenoid.
Next up, my secondary injector duty cycle is at 68%. I'm going to push to 18PSI. As long as I'm at or below 80% on the secondaries I'll stay here for good. I'm also hoping to enable active boost control as well as figure out what's up with the boat load of fuel I'm dumping in to hold AFRs at 0psi. Who knows I may also set up temp compensation for fuel.
I've been delayed in responding due to my clanking issue. This was simple really ... backfiring ... my stock plugs badly needed replacement. It's amazing what a high powered coil will do to stock plugs in 3000 miles. My electrodes were stubs. Long story short, I dropped a heat range and used an iridium plug. The backfiring is gone and things are back to normal.
Given the new plugs the portion of my map that represented the backfiring had really leaned out. I've attached a new 14psi map where this is corrected. Watch for leaning out in the 3000-4000ish range if you use the 11psi map that I've already posted.
It's been heating up here in SoCal. When my intake air temps rise the idle drops off and sometimes stalls. To compensate, I've added to the "correction for air temp" table under "open loop idle control". This is still a work in progress but it's close. This adjustment makes a big difference, especially when a heat soaked (was parked) engine runs for the first 3 or so minutes.
I've spent more time tuning idle than any other area!
Lastly, there's a 16psi map attached as well! The VE tuning made it relatively easy to jump to this map and so, here it is! Hmm ... easy to tune but I did have to stop and replace the stock solenoid that controls pressure to the turbo actuator. It started to leak near 14psi. I replaced it with a MAC solenoid.
Next up, my secondary injector duty cycle is at 68%. I'm going to push to 18PSI. As long as I'm at or below 80% on the secondaries I'll stay here for good. I'm also hoping to enable active boost control as well as figure out what's up with the boat load of fuel I'm dumping in to hold AFRs at 0psi. Who knows I may also set up temp compensation for fuel.
08-12-13, 10:51 PM
#36
Map 8
Hi All,
Here's a quick and dirty 18 psi map. I've hit 86% duty cycle on my secondaries with this map so it's time to back off a bit. I'm going to drop it down to 17 psi next time and work on air temp compensation as well as PID boost control.
The jump to 18 psi required an additional wastegate duty cycle of about twice what was required to jump from 14 to 16 psi. It would probably help to open up the exhaust a bit at this point. Maybe a high flow cat? Just guessing. I've read that the stock exhaust manifold really starts to hold these BNRs back near 18 psi. Perhaps this is the start of it.
Two other notes:
1) There's a decent hesitation off idle. I've dialed it out of my draft 17 psi map. If you're tinkering with this 18psi map, add some fuel in the two cells just under the idle cell.
2) My IAC died yesterday. It's been a slow death. I'm sure that I've compensated in my 18psi map and maybe a bit in the 16 psi map. Be prepared to adjust idle on these maps.
best,
James
Here's a quick and dirty 18 psi map. I've hit 86% duty cycle on my secondaries with this map so it's time to back off a bit. I'm going to drop it down to 17 psi next time and work on air temp compensation as well as PID boost control.
The jump to 18 psi required an additional wastegate duty cycle of about twice what was required to jump from 14 to 16 psi. It would probably help to open up the exhaust a bit at this point. Maybe a high flow cat? Just guessing. I've read that the stock exhaust manifold really starts to hold these BNRs back near 18 psi. Perhaps this is the start of it.
Two other notes:
1) There's a decent hesitation off idle. I've dialed it out of my draft 17 psi map. If you're tinkering with this 18psi map, add some fuel in the two cells just under the idle cell.
2) My IAC died yesterday. It's been a slow death. I'm sure that I've compensated in my 18psi map and maybe a bit in the 16 psi map. Be prepared to adjust idle on these maps.
best,
James
10-12-13, 10:56 PM
#38
Hi James, this might be a stupid question, but could you explain wastegate duty cycle?
I understand that duty cycle is the amount of times a said unit operates within a time frame, so is the ECU is telling the MAC valve to open/close by bleeding the vacuum to maintain boost pressure?
If we have a wastegate with a 12psi spring and we intend to run 16psi, the wastegate won't be affected by the duty cycle until it's reached that 12psi, then the exhaust pressure starts to open the gate. From then on will the duty cycle be bleeding the vacuum from the MAC valve at lets lets say 70% duty cycle to maintain the 16psi?
The other question is, can I use your triumph IAT numbers for my triumph IAT or should I calibrate my own?
I understand that duty cycle is the amount of times a said unit operates within a time frame, so is the ECU is telling the MAC valve to open/close by bleeding the vacuum to maintain boost pressure?
If we have a wastegate with a 12psi spring and we intend to run 16psi, the wastegate won't be affected by the duty cycle until it's reached that 12psi, then the exhaust pressure starts to open the gate. From then on will the duty cycle be bleeding the vacuum from the MAC valve at lets lets say 70% duty cycle to maintain the 16psi?
The other question is, can I use your triumph IAT numbers for my triumph IAT or should I calibrate my own?
10-15-13, 07:16 PM
#39
If we have a wastegate with a 12psi spring and we intend to run 16psi, the wastegate won't be affected by the duty cycle until it's reached that 12psi, then the exhaust pressure starts to open the gate. From then on will the duty cycle be bleeding the vacuum from the MAC valve at lets lets say 70% duty cycle to maintain the 16psi?
Did that make any sense?
Yes, I have yest to see any posts stating that the various model numbers have a different resistance to voltage curve. Maybe plug the triumph sensor in, see what it registers in free air and compare it to a know good thermometer to be sure. To be sure, measure free air temp and then measure your body temp. If the two points match, you're good.
10-15-13, 09:09 PM
#40
Clear
I think that you have it. Well, the opening / closing of the MAC valve is bleeding pressure (not vacuum) ... but other than that, you have it.
Correct results but with the wrong reasoning. The pressure from the intake manifold air (on a BNR turbo, it's tapped just after the compressed air leaves the primary turbo) pushes on the waste-gate valve diaphragm. The diagram is held shut by a 12psi (in your example) spring. Once the intake manifold pressure reaches 12psi the waste-gate starts to open. If the MAC valve is opened is starts to bleed off the pressure. Since it's releasing pressure, the incoming intake pressure will need to be higher to hit 12psi in the diaphragm and open the spring. Also, the exhaust pressure doesn't open the gate ... well it pushes on it but the intake boost pressure is what opens the gate.
Did that make any sense?
Yes, I have yest to see any posts stating that the various model numbers have a different resistance to voltage curve. Maybe plug the triumph sensor in, see what it registers in free air and compare it to a know good thermometer to be sure. To be sure, measure free air temp and then measure your body temp. If the two points match, you're good.
Correct results but with the wrong reasoning. The pressure from the intake manifold air (on a BNR turbo, it's tapped just after the compressed air leaves the primary turbo) pushes on the waste-gate valve diaphragm. The diagram is held shut by a 12psi (in your example) spring. Once the intake manifold pressure reaches 12psi the waste-gate starts to open. If the MAC valve is opened is starts to bleed off the pressure. Since it's releasing pressure, the incoming intake pressure will need to be higher to hit 12psi in the diaphragm and open the spring. Also, the exhaust pressure doesn't open the gate ... well it pushes on it but the intake boost pressure is what opens the gate.
Did that make any sense?
Yes, I have yest to see any posts stating that the various model numbers have a different resistance to voltage curve. Maybe plug the triumph sensor in, see what it registers in free air and compare it to a know good thermometer to be sure. To be sure, measure free air temp and then measure your body temp. If the two points match, you're good.
11-17-13, 11:13 AM
#41
Map 9
Hi everyone,
Here's a 17psi map. Before I go into the details, I'm having some troubles with my PLX / LC-1 / Adaptronic interface. Take a look at this thread ... any advice?
So, what's new?
1) The hesitation off of idle is fixed. Basicaly I needed to add fuel in the cells that are touched just off of idle. That is, when you first tap the accelerator pedal.
2) When the car was started from a heat soak condition (parked hot and let sit) it would sometimes hunt between 500 and 1000 RPMs. I think that number 1, above fixed this.
3) There are some adjustments to the idle load settings as a result of my new IAC. See my last map post, my IAC went bad.
4) I've leaned out cruise AFRs a bit. Should help with carbon and MPG.
5) I've set boost to 17psi and turned on PID control. It seems to work well.
6) I've started to set up air temperature based compensation for AFR. It's a bit rich when the air temp drops but I'm working on it.
best,
James
P.S. Would someone tell my wife's 02 Mazda Tribute to stop breaking down? In the last two months I've replaces an alternator, A/C compressor, coolant reservoir, P/S pump and re-threaded a (blown out, not stripped) sparkplug hole. Doesn't it know that I want to work on the 7?
Here's a 17psi map. Before I go into the details, I'm having some troubles with my PLX / LC-1 / Adaptronic interface. Take a look at this thread ... any advice?
So, what's new?
1) The hesitation off of idle is fixed. Basicaly I needed to add fuel in the cells that are touched just off of idle. That is, when you first tap the accelerator pedal.
2) When the car was started from a heat soak condition (parked hot and let sit) it would sometimes hunt between 500 and 1000 RPMs. I think that number 1, above fixed this.
3) There are some adjustments to the idle load settings as a result of my new IAC. See my last map post, my IAC went bad.
4) I've leaned out cruise AFRs a bit. Should help with carbon and MPG.
5) I've set boost to 17psi and turned on PID control. It seems to work well.
6) I've started to set up air temperature based compensation for AFR. It's a bit rich when the air temp drops but I'm working on it.
best,
James
P.S. Would someone tell my wife's 02 Mazda Tribute to stop breaking down? In the last two months I've replaces an alternator, A/C compressor, coolant reservoir, P/S pump and re-threaded a (blown out, not stripped) sparkplug hole. Doesn't it know that I want to work on the 7?
01-17-14, 12:38 PM
#43
Map 10
Hi Folks,
This map is still at 17psi but with some changes. To close out the last thread, thanks to Turblown and Andy for solving my PLX interface problem ... thread link in my last post.
Changes:
1) I've added a Bonez high flow cat. As a result I've re-tuned boost fuel and wastegate duty. For the most part this means a couple of percent less wastegate duty up high and a bit more fuel up high. I'm now occasional hitting 86% on crisp mornings. As a result one of my next mods may be 850cc OEM injectors in the primary rail. If anyone has an Aqumist Summer for sale, PM me. The 850's will likely have me boosting too high to tap the duty cycle of the secondaries alone.
2) I've embraced air temp AFR compensation. It's set up to mirror air density until 149f. Past that I'm conservative for safety. I'm continuing to test this to see how I'm doing. Two notes here for those just starting on this thread. I'm using a Triumph AIR sensor in the stock location. It's using a thick paper gasket for heat soak insulation and is one of the older ones with a plastic bridge (better airflow than the new brass hood) protecting the sensor. It's also clocked it so that the sensor is facing into airflow. It seems to respond well to changes in temp. It might be worth moving to the intake elbow or even further out. Second note, I've been doing most of my tuning at about 90f of AIT. This is the area where there is no AIT correction. This is important as I don't know how much I can trust my correction factors yet. The idea is that I'm not tuning up or down unintentional because my air temp correction skews reality.
3) I've added fuel using the "Coolant Enrichment High Map" table starting at 212f all the way to 257f. This is based on my PFC map and is for safety.
4) I've made a lot of changes to the "Transient Throttle" section of the "Corrections" tab. In short, I was compensating for poor throttle response using the fuel 1 map on the "tuning" tab. This has been remedied and the throttle response greatly improved.
Here are the details:
- If I stabbed the throttle at 2000 RPMs the AFRs went very lean. To solve this I created the rich VE tuning on the 2psi row. Yes, that's why past maps have what look like mount Everest there. Throttle response was acceptable after building the mountain but not great. A side affect was also that cruising up a grade in 5th gear tended to push the AFRs down or under 10:1.
- The fix was subscribing to Raymond and Chucks private tuning group. Seriously, I need to plug these guys again. It's been a great investment to pay for access to their tuning group. I had reached a wall here and they set me strait.
- OK, so the fix was to reduce "Transition time (ms)" a bit, increase "Async Gain (%)" and most importantly ignore the instructions for setting up the "Predict MAP table" to an extent. I've basically tuned it based on real world data and then increased the 100% TPS / 2000 and 4000 RPM cells to reflect 8psi of boost. It's not perfect but the throttle response has gone from decent to solidly good. Oh, and I've set MAP sensor filtering to "Always filter" as the increased "Asynch Gain (%)" was dumping fuel in where it wasn't needed; specifically, under 70kpa. This made the car jumpy at very light loads. Look at "pump" in engine logs. This setting seems to have eliminated the issue.
- Sounds like there's room for improvement here (link) in a new firmware update.
5) I've done some tuning to match the new cat converter in addition to my leaner AFRs and the transient throttle changes in item 4, above. Take a look at "re-tuned" in the attached zip. Anything both in green text and in the red square is real world tuned. The car is very drivable now. I'd still like to work on the 4psi row a bit. I feel like it's a bit off given that it was tuned with a "mount Everest" 2psi row.
6) I've tweaked settings on the "Power Cut" tab in the "Throttle-off (overrun)" section to help significant backfiring that the Bonez cat seems to have introduced.
Next up, I'd like to round out the re-tuning a bit by finishing off the black text cells in the red square as mentioned in number 5, above. I'd also like to work on the tuning around idle. The car sometime oscillates after decelerating from a downshift with the A/C on. AKA, it's hunts between 700 and 1200 RPMs. My guess is that I need to work on the fuel in that area a bit still. Lastly, there is new firmware with engine protection coming out. Lots of good stuff here.
later,
James
This map is still at 17psi but with some changes. To close out the last thread, thanks to Turblown and Andy for solving my PLX interface problem ... thread link in my last post.
Changes:
1) I've added a Bonez high flow cat. As a result I've re-tuned boost fuel and wastegate duty. For the most part this means a couple of percent less wastegate duty up high and a bit more fuel up high. I'm now occasional hitting 86% on crisp mornings. As a result one of my next mods may be 850cc OEM injectors in the primary rail. If anyone has an Aqumist Summer for sale, PM me. The 850's will likely have me boosting too high to tap the duty cycle of the secondaries alone.
2) I've embraced air temp AFR compensation. It's set up to mirror air density until 149f. Past that I'm conservative for safety. I'm continuing to test this to see how I'm doing. Two notes here for those just starting on this thread. I'm using a Triumph AIR sensor in the stock location. It's using a thick paper gasket for heat soak insulation and is one of the older ones with a plastic bridge (better airflow than the new brass hood) protecting the sensor. It's also clocked it so that the sensor is facing into airflow. It seems to respond well to changes in temp. It might be worth moving to the intake elbow or even further out. Second note, I've been doing most of my tuning at about 90f of AIT. This is the area where there is no AIT correction. This is important as I don't know how much I can trust my correction factors yet. The idea is that I'm not tuning up or down unintentional because my air temp correction skews reality.
3) I've added fuel using the "Coolant Enrichment High Map" table starting at 212f all the way to 257f. This is based on my PFC map and is for safety.
4) I've made a lot of changes to the "Transient Throttle" section of the "Corrections" tab. In short, I was compensating for poor throttle response using the fuel 1 map on the "tuning" tab. This has been remedied and the throttle response greatly improved.
Here are the details:
- If I stabbed the throttle at 2000 RPMs the AFRs went very lean. To solve this I created the rich VE tuning on the 2psi row. Yes, that's why past maps have what look like mount Everest there. Throttle response was acceptable after building the mountain but not great. A side affect was also that cruising up a grade in 5th gear tended to push the AFRs down or under 10:1.
- The fix was subscribing to Raymond and Chucks private tuning group. Seriously, I need to plug these guys again. It's been a great investment to pay for access to their tuning group. I had reached a wall here and they set me strait.
- OK, so the fix was to reduce "Transition time (ms)" a bit, increase "Async Gain (%)" and most importantly ignore the instructions for setting up the "Predict MAP table" to an extent. I've basically tuned it based on real world data and then increased the 100% TPS / 2000 and 4000 RPM cells to reflect 8psi of boost. It's not perfect but the throttle response has gone from decent to solidly good. Oh, and I've set MAP sensor filtering to "Always filter" as the increased "Asynch Gain (%)" was dumping fuel in where it wasn't needed; specifically, under 70kpa. This made the car jumpy at very light loads. Look at "pump" in engine logs. This setting seems to have eliminated the issue.
- Sounds like there's room for improvement here (link) in a new firmware update.
5) I've done some tuning to match the new cat converter in addition to my leaner AFRs and the transient throttle changes in item 4, above. Take a look at "re-tuned" in the attached zip. Anything both in green text and in the red square is real world tuned. The car is very drivable now. I'd still like to work on the 4psi row a bit. I feel like it's a bit off given that it was tuned with a "mount Everest" 2psi row.
6) I've tweaked settings on the "Power Cut" tab in the "Throttle-off (overrun)" section to help significant backfiring that the Bonez cat seems to have introduced.
Next up, I'd like to round out the re-tuning a bit by finishing off the black text cells in the red square as mentioned in number 5, above. I'd also like to work on the tuning around idle. The car sometime oscillates after decelerating from a downshift with the A/C on. AKA, it's hunts between 700 and 1200 RPMs. My guess is that I need to work on the fuel in that area a bit still. Lastly, there is new firmware with engine protection coming out. Lots of good stuff here.
later,
James
01-17-14, 07:14 PM
#44
One more addition. The cranking fuel table has been changed to help when the engine is hot. There was way too much fuel being dumped in when the engine was hot. Probably my fault. It's dramatically leaned out now. The car starts up hot like it does cold, quickly and easily. Previously hot starts were a challenge.
02-09-14, 12:12 PM
#47
Map 11
Hi All,
A few quick changes before the new firmware is out.
1) I took a bit too much fuel out of the cranking fuel tables. I've fixed this. Sometimes the engine starts immidiately after cranking. I think that I'm happy here.
2) I've maxed out the Asynch Gail (%). This engine seems to respond really well to this given sudden throttle changes. I'm anxious to see what the new firmware does here, I've read that there are big improvements.
3) My Aquamist system had a few leaks that I've since corrected. Thank you Jeff at Howerton Engineering. This guy is responsive, fair and knows his stuff. Anyway, fixing this has let me run full boost to redline. There are some WOT fuel map changes for this.
A warning for anyone using my config at this point. I'm running 550 / 1300 injectors and they are maxed (100% duty) out at 60F outside temp, redline and 18psi (car is set to 17 but sometimes goes higher). I have 850cc secondaries and a primary rail waiting to be milled to help with this. I don't intend to add boost and am just looking for some safety margin.
I've also picked up an Rx7 Summer since my primaries will be so close in CC to my secondaries now. I may also wire my Aquamist to my Adaptronic so that the map switches when the fail-safe triggers.
Until next time,
James
A few quick changes before the new firmware is out.
1) I took a bit too much fuel out of the cranking fuel tables. I've fixed this. Sometimes the engine starts immidiately after cranking. I think that I'm happy here.
2) I've maxed out the Asynch Gail (%). This engine seems to respond really well to this given sudden throttle changes. I'm anxious to see what the new firmware does here, I've read that there are big improvements.
3) My Aquamist system had a few leaks that I've since corrected. Thank you Jeff at Howerton Engineering. This guy is responsive, fair and knows his stuff. Anyway, fixing this has let me run full boost to redline. There are some WOT fuel map changes for this.
A warning for anyone using my config at this point. I'm running 550 / 1300 injectors and they are maxed (100% duty) out at 60F outside temp, redline and 18psi (car is set to 17 but sometimes goes higher). I have 850cc secondaries and a primary rail waiting to be milled to help with this. I don't intend to add boost and am just looking for some safety margin.
I've also picked up an Rx7 Summer since my primaries will be so close in CC to my secondaries now. I may also wire my Aquamist to my Adaptronic so that the map switches when the fail-safe triggers.
Until next time,
James
Last edited by James Paventi; 02-09-14 at 12:15 PM. Reason: forgot attachment
02-09-14, 01:29 PM
#48
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EB Turbo
02-09-14, 02:22 PM
#49
duty maxed out at row 1229
Take a look at row 80. I've added two columns (A and B) to the normal logs. One for secondary inj duty and another for primary. The formulas in those columns will point you to the inj ms on time columns.
Granted when I go past 19psi (row 80 does) the ECU runs into an intentional overly rich safety row for 21 psi in the fuel map. The duty is still near 90% for other nearby rows in the log though.
See what you think.
---- edit .... had to clip out a bit of the log to enable (size restriction) the attachment. ---- row changed to 80 from 1229 -----
Granted when I go past 19psi (row 80 does) the ECU runs into an intentional overly rich safety row for 21 psi in the fuel map. The duty is still near 90% for other nearby rows in the log though.
See what you think.
---- edit .... had to clip out a bit of the log to enable (size restriction) the attachment. ---- row changed to 80 from 1229 -----
12-21-14, 11:00 AM
#50
off idle throttle mash engine stumble / better throttle responce
Hi All,
I'm still working on the car and have been tuning 850 (stock) primaries w/1300 (stock) secondaries. This ecu handles the combo with no issues. What was it that one had to do with a PFC, negative lag? Anyway, this ECU has zero issues. I'll put a map up and talk about it in a bit. I've been crazy busy setting a business up.
Mannykiller asked me about transient throttle response. I thought that I would put the conversation here so that it could help folks. Comments anyone? I'm probably off with some of my reasoning so feel free to let me know where. I'd eventually like to put all of this thread's info into an Adaptronic getting started guide.
One other thing. The transient throttle response values aren't so much real world as they are what is needed to make the engine run right. When you're setting these up the "Predicted MAP table" don't expect to enter real world values. For example the 100% TPS kPa values are logically 0psi on your map ... at least this is how I saw it in my mind, initially. Forget about this "real world" logic and set the numbers as if the engine was already in boost. Take a look at my settings (download one of the maps in this thread) and you'll see this.
I'm still working on the car and have been tuning 850 (stock) primaries w/1300 (stock) secondaries. This ecu handles the combo with no issues. What was it that one had to do with a PFC, negative lag? Anyway, this ECU has zero issues. I'll put a map up and talk about it in a bit. I've been crazy busy setting a business up.
Mannykiller asked me about transient throttle response. I thought that I would put the conversation here so that it could help folks. Comments anyone? I'm probably off with some of my reasoning so feel free to let me know where. I'd eventually like to put all of this thread's info into an Adaptronic getting started guide.
Originally Posted by mannykiller
Hey James!
I was wondering if you may be able to help explain to me how to really get that crisp throttle "Crack" when I smash the Throttle down. Depending on where I'm at sometimes i'll get a light bumble when I crack it open....Usually Higher RPM It happens less.. Its usually lower RPM Hesitation into Higher % TPS if that makes sense. I figured I would try Andy's Transient Throttle Response set up but I wanted to see if that worked for you Or if I should give it a go. Thanks much!
- Aaron parker
I was wondering if you may be able to help explain to me how to really get that crisp throttle "Crack" when I smash the Throttle down. Depending on where I'm at sometimes i'll get a light bumble when I crack it open....Usually Higher RPM It happens less.. Its usually lower RPM Hesitation into Higher % TPS if that makes sense. I figured I would try Andy's Transient Throttle Response set up but I wanted to see if that worked for you Or if I should give it a go. Thanks much!
- Aaron parker
Originally Posted by James Paventi
Hi Aaron,
What you're saying makes perfect sense. For me, more fuel helped. There are a few ways that I can think of to do this:
1) On the "Corrections" tab, check "Use MAP prediction". You can probably do this the old school way, but this is what I have working. Use the "Predicted MAP table" to set up MAP prediction per Andy's video.
After this, tune your map and note if you are having to add a lot of fuel near the transition from vacuum to pressure. This will only be needed when mashing the throttle. That is if you need the fuel when mashing the throttle to maintain proper AFR but not when cruising under heavy load you've figured out that the 13b requires more art than science to set up the predicted map table.
Now, increase the predicted map table values (mostly the 100% TPS ones) to solve that problem. That is, so that the AFR near the vacuum / pressure transition requires less fuel for a mashed pedal and thus doesn't run too rich when cruising under heavy load.
Hmm ... that was a backwards way to explain why this might be affecting the snappy throttle that you want. Think of the situation in reverse. That is, you've tuned the car near 0psi for cruising under heavy load but are leaning out when quickly mashing the pedal.
Did that make sense?
2) Still in the same place in Wari as number 1, set the "Transition time (ms) to 200. My ECU is in the stock location with a vacuum hose running from the spare nipple on the UIM, through the fender, in the rubber plug that everyone removes and to the ECU. If your vacuum hose is shorter decrease this value, if it's longer increase the value. This is how long the Predicted map table is in effect when the ECU senses that you've mashed the pedal.
3) Our engines need a lot of fuel when the pedal is mashed. Go to the same place in Wari that I've described in #1, above. Check "Double Async gain" and enter a value of 216 in "Asynch Gain (%)". This will basically dump a load of fuel in when the ECU senses rapid throttle change. You may need to experiment with more or less given your mods. I did a lot of driving in second gear with the car at 1500 RPMs, mashing the pedal while my buddy added and removed from this value. 216 was my sweet spot.
Note that this adds fuel for ANY rapid throttle moment and not just pedal mashing. That is, a quick move from 10-20% throttle will shoot a bunch of fuel in. It's possible to go overboard here and end up with great response to pedal mashing but a flat feel when making small throttle adjustments. It's pretty obvious in a log. Light throttle adjustments lead to low AFR readings when you barely move the throttle.
4) Set the "Transient Ign. Advance Gain ..." to 1. I've found that this helps a bit. I set the max (just below the gain) to 2 for safety's sake. I only noticed improvement here for off idle response.
5) In your fuel map, add a bit of fuel under the burble. That is, add a bit of fuel underneath the cells that the car is running in just before you mash the throttle. This works well for off idle response but can make portions of your cruise map rich the same way as number 1. Do this for off idle response right away but save it as a last resort for cruise areas of the map as it leads to running rich when cruising.
Some other thoughts. Running too much fuel when you mash the pedal feels a lot like too little. Log a few pedal mashes at various RPMs and look at your AFRs. You should see a pattern like AFR normal, mash pedal, AFR lean, AFR correct, AFR rich, AFR correct (pedal mashed the whole time). The idea is to have the AFR be ideal the entire time. This just isn't possible though, you need to aim for as close to ideal as you can.
Here's an example of too much fuel. AFR normal, mash pedal, AFR normal, AFR crazy rich, AFR correct. This feels great when you mash the pedal and then 1/4 seconds later the car bogs. Find a balance between the mash pedal, lean out, rich, then normal AFR thing. The way that I understand it is that we're fighting (when the pedal is mashed) a sudden pressure increase that causes the fuel in the UIM / LIM's big runners to vaporize out onto the runner walls. This causes a lean condition until the fuel runs down into the motor shortly after. On top of that our huge intake and exhaust port overlap is dumping massive amounts of exhaust into the intake tract at idle speeds. This requires gobs of fuel to overcome. Couple those two things with the fact that the pressure change takes quite a while to reach the sensor on the ECU and transient throttle tuning becomes quite a pain.
Hope that I helped ... if there's something above that seems off, question it. I'm far from an expert!
best,
James
What you're saying makes perfect sense. For me, more fuel helped. There are a few ways that I can think of to do this:
1) On the "Corrections" tab, check "Use MAP prediction". You can probably do this the old school way, but this is what I have working. Use the "Predicted MAP table" to set up MAP prediction per Andy's video.
After this, tune your map and note if you are having to add a lot of fuel near the transition from vacuum to pressure. This will only be needed when mashing the throttle. That is if you need the fuel when mashing the throttle to maintain proper AFR but not when cruising under heavy load you've figured out that the 13b requires more art than science to set up the predicted map table.
Now, increase the predicted map table values (mostly the 100% TPS ones) to solve that problem. That is, so that the AFR near the vacuum / pressure transition requires less fuel for a mashed pedal and thus doesn't run too rich when cruising under heavy load.
Hmm ... that was a backwards way to explain why this might be affecting the snappy throttle that you want. Think of the situation in reverse. That is, you've tuned the car near 0psi for cruising under heavy load but are leaning out when quickly mashing the pedal.
Did that make sense?
2) Still in the same place in Wari as number 1, set the "Transition time (ms) to 200. My ECU is in the stock location with a vacuum hose running from the spare nipple on the UIM, through the fender, in the rubber plug that everyone removes and to the ECU. If your vacuum hose is shorter decrease this value, if it's longer increase the value. This is how long the Predicted map table is in effect when the ECU senses that you've mashed the pedal.
3) Our engines need a lot of fuel when the pedal is mashed. Go to the same place in Wari that I've described in #1, above. Check "Double Async gain" and enter a value of 216 in "Asynch Gain (%)". This will basically dump a load of fuel in when the ECU senses rapid throttle change. You may need to experiment with more or less given your mods. I did a lot of driving in second gear with the car at 1500 RPMs, mashing the pedal while my buddy added and removed from this value. 216 was my sweet spot.
Note that this adds fuel for ANY rapid throttle moment and not just pedal mashing. That is, a quick move from 10-20% throttle will shoot a bunch of fuel in. It's possible to go overboard here and end up with great response to pedal mashing but a flat feel when making small throttle adjustments. It's pretty obvious in a log. Light throttle adjustments lead to low AFR readings when you barely move the throttle.
4) Set the "Transient Ign. Advance Gain ..." to 1. I've found that this helps a bit. I set the max (just below the gain) to 2 for safety's sake. I only noticed improvement here for off idle response.
5) In your fuel map, add a bit of fuel under the burble. That is, add a bit of fuel underneath the cells that the car is running in just before you mash the throttle. This works well for off idle response but can make portions of your cruise map rich the same way as number 1. Do this for off idle response right away but save it as a last resort for cruise areas of the map as it leads to running rich when cruising.
Some other thoughts. Running too much fuel when you mash the pedal feels a lot like too little. Log a few pedal mashes at various RPMs and look at your AFRs. You should see a pattern like AFR normal, mash pedal, AFR lean, AFR correct, AFR rich, AFR correct (pedal mashed the whole time). The idea is to have the AFR be ideal the entire time. This just isn't possible though, you need to aim for as close to ideal as you can.
Here's an example of too much fuel. AFR normal, mash pedal, AFR normal, AFR crazy rich, AFR correct. This feels great when you mash the pedal and then 1/4 seconds later the car bogs. Find a balance between the mash pedal, lean out, rich, then normal AFR thing. The way that I understand it is that we're fighting (when the pedal is mashed) a sudden pressure increase that causes the fuel in the UIM / LIM's big runners to vaporize out onto the runner walls. This causes a lean condition until the fuel runs down into the motor shortly after. On top of that our huge intake and exhaust port overlap is dumping massive amounts of exhaust into the intake tract at idle speeds. This requires gobs of fuel to overcome. Couple those two things with the fact that the pressure change takes quite a while to reach the sensor on the ECU and transient throttle tuning becomes quite a pain.
Hope that I helped ... if there's something above that seems off, question it. I'm far from an expert!
best,
James
Last edited by James Paventi; 12-21-14 at 11:01 AM. Reason: formatting
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