Why is a stock rx7 so nice to some people?
03-06-13, 07:54 PM
#26
Recovering Miataholic
When I hop in a stock, well-running FD, whether they have minor reliability mods or not, I am always surprised at how nice a drive it is.
03-06-13, 07:59 PM
#27
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The mods will end with mine with a set of BNR twins, fresh engine and the supporting mods to bring is near the stock C6 Z06's power/weight ratio. If i made 400rwhp id jump for joy. If the car only puts down 375, so what. Not after power. I love how the car drives now, just want that oomph that newer cars have. Stepping out of a 600awhp VR4 doesn't help matters much, but the FD drives so much better i have put extensive thought into how to not ruin that. Which to me is keeping a properly working sequential twin setup and the best quality hardware i can afford, all the while trying to not take away the great balance the car has.
I spent 7 years looking for this car, i dont intend to ruin this one
Jason
I spent 7 years looking for this car, i dont intend to ruin this one
Jason
03-07-13, 02:20 PM
#28
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I've never liked the idea of people just bolting parts on what used to be a good stock running, unmolested FD, which ran fine and had zero problems.
I look at a lot of the build threads (some of them make me cringe... I sit on the laptop next to my fiancee and point at the screen- "look at this thing- look at what they did here- look at that" and she knows nothing about cars, yet she even finds it atrocious), and most of the time it goes from "Here's my car, bone stock" at the beginning, to "Then I stuck a big intercooler and an exhaust system on it for more power. And some poorly-fit wheels and nasty steering wheel. Then I went crazy and heat insulated everything in the engine bay because I could, and screwed with the vacuum lines because I know vacuum routing better than the engineers who designed it. Then I put an aftermarket ECU in it, which has absolutely zero knock-retard control, and fiddled with the settings because again, I know more than the Mazda engineers who originally tuned the stock ECU
And then the car goes bang, and then they fix it, and then they change some more parameters, and then they lose track of where they were, even further, so they throw more go-fast bits on it, at the advice of forum members, and it goes bang again.... Then its up for sale.
Then you get these comments about how unreliable it was, etc coming into the forums.
It was not unreliable before you started f@$%&ing with it!!!!!
Dont get me started on the nice clean stock FDs which people then thoughtlessly hack into pieces and rattle can spray into "drift machines". Those sorts of things make it hard for me to sleep at night, knowing they've killed another perfectly good FD and resigned it to a life of bashing and ill-fitting parts and poor paint and dirt and grime, and fluorescent decals and stickers plastered all over it, killing its pedigree and taking the pedigree of all FDs down a notch in the process.
Mazda will never make another FD. They are scarce. Why kill them needlessly??
Reliable? Yes they can be. I beat to death my own story about my car having low mileage (79,000 original km) when I got it. I did not go crazy and add a bunch of things to it. I serviced it properly, maintain it, I will only change or add a component after evalualting if this will make the car worse or better, decrease or increase its value, etc. And I have driven my FD every day for 3 years straight and I have only ever had one problem happen with my car- the power window switch contacts needed cleaning. My car has cost me $0.00 in repairs over 3 years. It has cost me $$ in maintenance, but all vehicles do. But it has been my daily driver through 3 winters and 3 summers, covering 100km every day on average, in 41.8C outside temps in traffic, to -2C torrential rain in winter, and my car still goes on.
And that is what makes a stock car so good. Nobody has monkeyed with it. I can have complete faith in it. And buyers know this. That is why they will pay more for one.
I look at a lot of the build threads (some of them make me cringe... I sit on the laptop next to my fiancee and point at the screen- "look at this thing- look at what they did here- look at that" and she knows nothing about cars, yet she even finds it atrocious), and most of the time it goes from "Here's my car, bone stock" at the beginning, to "Then I stuck a big intercooler and an exhaust system on it for more power. And some poorly-fit wheels and nasty steering wheel. Then I went crazy and heat insulated everything in the engine bay because I could, and screwed with the vacuum lines because I know vacuum routing better than the engineers who designed it. Then I put an aftermarket ECU in it, which has absolutely zero knock-retard control, and fiddled with the settings because again, I know more than the Mazda engineers who originally tuned the stock ECU
And then the car goes bang, and then they fix it, and then they change some more parameters, and then they lose track of where they were, even further, so they throw more go-fast bits on it, at the advice of forum members, and it goes bang again.... Then its up for sale.
Then you get these comments about how unreliable it was, etc coming into the forums.
It was not unreliable before you started f@$%&ing with it!!!!!
Dont get me started on the nice clean stock FDs which people then thoughtlessly hack into pieces and rattle can spray into "drift machines". Those sorts of things make it hard for me to sleep at night, knowing they've killed another perfectly good FD and resigned it to a life of bashing and ill-fitting parts and poor paint and dirt and grime, and fluorescent decals and stickers plastered all over it, killing its pedigree and taking the pedigree of all FDs down a notch in the process.
Mazda will never make another FD. They are scarce. Why kill them needlessly??
Reliable? Yes they can be. I beat to death my own story about my car having low mileage (79,000 original km) when I got it. I did not go crazy and add a bunch of things to it. I serviced it properly, maintain it, I will only change or add a component after evalualting if this will make the car worse or better, decrease or increase its value, etc. And I have driven my FD every day for 3 years straight and I have only ever had one problem happen with my car- the power window switch contacts needed cleaning. My car has cost me $0.00 in repairs over 3 years. It has cost me $$ in maintenance, but all vehicles do. But it has been my daily driver through 3 winters and 3 summers, covering 100km every day on average, in 41.8C outside temps in traffic, to -2C torrential rain in winter, and my car still goes on.
And that is what makes a stock car so good. Nobody has monkeyed with it. I can have complete faith in it. And buyers know this. That is why they will pay more for one.
so the after picture is usually worse, and that's people ON the forum!
03-07-13, 03:51 PM
#29
I have owned modified 7's in the past, they were a lot of fun. My current FD just has a downpipe, high flow cat, new silicone vac lines and couplers, and cooling "reliability" mods, nothing else... And I love it. Been that way for the past 5 years.
03-07-13, 04:05 PM
#30
The underlying reason why I got an RX-7 again was so I could have a car that I could mold. The RX-7 is a great foundation, but it has a lot of potential to be improved, in my opinion. It's the type of car that thrives on being modified - to an extent. There is always a balance. Overdoing something is worse than not doing anything at all.
Otherwise, I would have just gotten a newer sports car and not touch it. I know if I went this route, I would soon be bored. Just like I would if I had a stock RX-7.
Maybe I'm one of the outliers here... I didn't buy this car to collect it, but rather to enjoy it. I just converted my 24,000 miles R2 to single turbo
Otherwise, I would have just gotten a newer sports car and not touch it. I know if I went this route, I would soon be bored. Just like I would if I had a stock RX-7.
Maybe I'm one of the outliers here... I didn't buy this car to collect it, but rather to enjoy it. I just converted my 24,000 miles R2 to single turbo
03-07-13, 04:58 PM
#33
with modifications comes the patience of sitting, waiting while repairs are made, unable to drive your car.
i've seen more than my fair share of cars that were stock "projects" that turned into novel size sagas and eventually either finished and sold or parted out due to financial hardship.
the more power you make the more you find yourself doing "maintenance".
and the more i work on these cars the less tolerant i am of people getting in over their head.
i've seen more than my fair share of cars that were stock "projects" that turned into novel size sagas and eventually either finished and sold or parted out due to financial hardship.
the more power you make the more you find yourself doing "maintenance".
and the more i work on these cars the less tolerant i am of people getting in over their head.
03-07-13, 07:05 PM
#34
always something to fix
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i feel like there IS a good balance you can have, without having problems, by modding the car
I have massive stock IC, intakes, pfc, dp, high flow cat, rb catback, silicone hose job, deleted ast, disable air pump, deleted AWS, aftermarket FPR, aluminum flywheel, tial bov, supra fuel pump, apexi coil overs, turbo timer, koyo radiator, stock twins, no port, single oil cooler.
Im making 290 whp at 13 psi and I feel like I should have over 300 with the mods i have.
after my stock rebuild, i did have issues with the car dying every time i took my foot off the gas pedal, the rpms just went all the way down, then i had my dashpot adjusted and timing adjusted, it stopped dying but the rpms still drop down low
also when i would just sit at a light, the idle would start jumping from 1k to 1300 rpm, up and down rapidly.
I replaced the dashpot and its better as far as the rpms dropping when i take my foot off the gas, and it doesnt jump around anymore because the timing was adjusted again, but it still drops down to 500, catches itself, and then goes up to 1100 rpm, then slowly back down to 900, and it stays there.
This drove me crazy for months, and it didnt do this before the rebuild!!!!
at the same time, i didnt have the flywheel, fuel pump, high flow cat, downpipe, hose job, FPR,
also the fpr was still stock , the air pump was connected, and the AWS was still in tact
I can def say that removing certain things that help make a car run normal when its stock, will lead to issues that you might not be able to figure out once you do a bunch of stuff, like myself
what should I or should not have done? I bought the car with a bunch of mods on it already, so i figured I might as well add more. also i went from jdm twins to stock twins after the rebuild
I have massive stock IC, intakes, pfc, dp, high flow cat, rb catback, silicone hose job, deleted ast, disable air pump, deleted AWS, aftermarket FPR, aluminum flywheel, tial bov, supra fuel pump, apexi coil overs, turbo timer, koyo radiator, stock twins, no port, single oil cooler.
Im making 290 whp at 13 psi and I feel like I should have over 300 with the mods i have.
after my stock rebuild, i did have issues with the car dying every time i took my foot off the gas pedal, the rpms just went all the way down, then i had my dashpot adjusted and timing adjusted, it stopped dying but the rpms still drop down low
also when i would just sit at a light, the idle would start jumping from 1k to 1300 rpm, up and down rapidly.
I replaced the dashpot and its better as far as the rpms dropping when i take my foot off the gas, and it doesnt jump around anymore because the timing was adjusted again, but it still drops down to 500, catches itself, and then goes up to 1100 rpm, then slowly back down to 900, and it stays there.
This drove me crazy for months, and it didnt do this before the rebuild!!!!
at the same time, i didnt have the flywheel, fuel pump, high flow cat, downpipe, hose job, FPR,
also the fpr was still stock , the air pump was connected, and the AWS was still in tact
I can def say that removing certain things that help make a car run normal when its stock, will lead to issues that you might not be able to figure out once you do a bunch of stuff, like myself
what should I or should not have done? I bought the car with a bunch of mods on it already, so i figured I might as well add more. also i went from jdm twins to stock twins after the rebuild
03-07-13, 07:19 PM
#35
a breaking in rebuild with moderate compression will have difficulty idling, add in the light flywheel and you have a scenario described. give it time and it should get better.
this is a good reason why many people want an untouched car. they don't want to inherit other people's problems.
this is a good reason why many people want an untouched car. they don't want to inherit other people's problems.
03-07-13, 07:39 PM
#36
always something to fix
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I had another guy tell me the same thing, its been almost 4 months now
I had one buddy tell me the flywheel contributes to the fast rpm drop, we adjusted the dashpot so it didnt drop so low but it still goes down, never dies now though, its completely fine as far as drivability
I had one buddy tell me the flywheel contributes to the fast rpm drop, we adjusted the dashpot so it didnt drop so low but it still goes down, never dies now though, its completely fine as far as drivability
03-07-13, 08:23 PM
#37
Reading this thread makes me love my seven more and more. Any in all mods I have done have not been power adders. They have been to improve drive ability and reliability. This thread further reinforces my thoughts on where to draw the line. I like just fixing the small things on my seven. I like chasing down my squeeks and rattles. I like ensuring it doesn't ever leak a drop of anything. I like making sure that everytime I hop on it to drive it, I don't have to think twice about wether something is about to break. Thus, I have my upkeep thread.
Matt
Matt
03-07-13, 09:09 PM
#38
I appreciate the qualities of an unmodified car quite a bit, as it is essentially a blank canvas to work with and has no prior blemishes from previous hackmonkeys. OTOH, the opposite is also true as some cars, the FD being noteworthy, have uncorrected faults from the factory as we all know. For this reason, I came up with a term, Opti-Stock, to describe the perfect balance between being unmolested and correcting flaws properly. If I were to find a bone-stock FD, it would receive the following mods per this philosophy:
R1/R2 dual oil coolers
Koyo N-flo radiator
S5 Fan thermoswitch
S4 coolant 'hat' (for AST elimination)
Upgraded alternator, such as one from a Ford Taurus
AGM Battery, such as a Deka Intimidator
Stainless Steel Downpipe
Hi-flow Cat
Racing Beat Catback
Silicone intake couplers
Silicone vacuum lines
Boost Gauge
Upgraded fuel pump, such as a Walbro 255, JZA80 Supra TT Pump or similar
Relocated fuel filter (easier access)
Relocated/upgraded turbo control solenoids (prevent heat-induced premature failure)
Heat-reflective sleeving for all underhood wiring
99-spec front bumper (better airflow to radiator)
This may seem like a rather lengthy list, but each item has a well-reasoned place. As we all know, the FD runs with a much smaller margin of error than its predecessors. In short, everything was downsized from the FC. Add an unwitting owner and a couple of modifications and the result is that one supporting component fails as it was already stressed from the factory.
For example, let's say you upgrade to a Supra fuel pump to ensure sufficient flow to support the freer-flowing exhaust components. This shifts the load from fuel delivery to electrical delivery, hence the Taurus alternator & Deka Intimidator battery. Once you give it a round of electrical upgrades, the weakest link becomes the cooling system as the engine is producing greater heat than its factory-stressed parts are capable of handing. So one needs the Koyo radiator, S5 fan thermoswitch & 99-spec bumper conversion. As for the oil coolers, it's a given that the FD needs all the help it can get there.
After you've solved cooling, you've got to deal with heat-related failures in the turbo control solenoids and engine harness(es). Break out the checkbook for some relocated industrial solenoids, wire wrap and silicone vacuum line. Since you'd be moving the solenoids and disassembling the intake plumbing, silicone intake couplers are next on the shopping list as the stock rubber ones would most likely disintegrate.
See the trend here? Balance is the key
R1/R2 dual oil coolers
Koyo N-flo radiator
S5 Fan thermoswitch
S4 coolant 'hat' (for AST elimination)
Upgraded alternator, such as one from a Ford Taurus
AGM Battery, such as a Deka Intimidator
Stainless Steel Downpipe
Hi-flow Cat
Racing Beat Catback
Silicone intake couplers
Silicone vacuum lines
Boost Gauge
Upgraded fuel pump, such as a Walbro 255, JZA80 Supra TT Pump or similar
Relocated fuel filter (easier access)
Relocated/upgraded turbo control solenoids (prevent heat-induced premature failure)
Heat-reflective sleeving for all underhood wiring
99-spec front bumper (better airflow to radiator)
This may seem like a rather lengthy list, but each item has a well-reasoned place. As we all know, the FD runs with a much smaller margin of error than its predecessors. In short, everything was downsized from the FC. Add an unwitting owner and a couple of modifications and the result is that one supporting component fails as it was already stressed from the factory.
For example, let's say you upgrade to a Supra fuel pump to ensure sufficient flow to support the freer-flowing exhaust components. This shifts the load from fuel delivery to electrical delivery, hence the Taurus alternator & Deka Intimidator battery. Once you give it a round of electrical upgrades, the weakest link becomes the cooling system as the engine is producing greater heat than its factory-stressed parts are capable of handing. So one needs the Koyo radiator, S5 fan thermoswitch & 99-spec bumper conversion. As for the oil coolers, it's a given that the FD needs all the help it can get there.
After you've solved cooling, you've got to deal with heat-related failures in the turbo control solenoids and engine harness(es). Break out the checkbook for some relocated industrial solenoids, wire wrap and silicone vacuum line. Since you'd be moving the solenoids and disassembling the intake plumbing, silicone intake couplers are next on the shopping list as the stock rubber ones would most likely disintegrate.
See the trend here? Balance is the key
03-07-13, 09:24 PM
#39
always something to fix
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id like to know what others think as far as additions too, or modifying that list, i think its solid though.
very detailed and thank you for the input!
very detailed and thank you for the input!
03-07-13, 09:54 PM
#40
I wish the previous owner had stayed Seq on the setup. However I bought the car with the NS setup. My buddy Roundabout had a sweet running Seq Auto and it amazes me how fast it is. Once you give up the Seq system it FORCES you to go single turbo at some point. The NS setup can only run so much pressure, and since your at that point anyway you might as well go single (which BTW is where I am at right now).
With that said, being a rotary engine that is 20 years old there are updates that NEED to be made. From the AST to the exhaust system there are parts that need to be changed. It is a very good thing to get a car that has not had some tool putting horse **** cheap parts into it. This car that does not accept poor craftsmanship or cutting corners very well. Most people do not live by the tuner trifecta.
The trifecta is that you can only have 2 of the following ; Reliable, fast, cheap. You can have cheap but it won't be reliable, or you can have fast and it won't be reliable, and finally you can reliable and it won't be cheap.
With that said, being a rotary engine that is 20 years old there are updates that NEED to be made. From the AST to the exhaust system there are parts that need to be changed. It is a very good thing to get a car that has not had some tool putting horse **** cheap parts into it. This car that does not accept poor craftsmanship or cutting corners very well. Most people do not live by the tuner trifecta.
The trifecta is that you can only have 2 of the following ; Reliable, fast, cheap. You can have cheap but it won't be reliable, or you can have fast and it won't be reliable, and finally you can reliable and it won't be cheap.
03-08-13, 11:27 AM
#42
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The mazda engineers went to great lengths to perfect the sequential system and it's one of if not the most distinguishing driving characteristic this car has and is a huge part of it's driving fun especially at low street level speeds and for this reason I feel like removing it really diminishes the over all vibe of the car and until you've driven one with a perfectly operating sequential setup you can't say you've truly experienced an FD at it's best.
03-08-13, 12:34 PM
#43
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The mazda engineers went to great lengths to perfect the sequential system and it's one of if not the most distinguishing driving characteristic this car has and is a huge part of it's driving fun especially at low street level speeds and for this reason I feel like removing it really diminishes the over all vibe of the car and until you've driven one with a perfectly operating sequential setup you can't say you've truly experienced an FD at it's best.
03-08-13, 12:35 PM
#44
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03-08-13, 09:27 PM
#47
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03-09-13, 06:58 AM
#48
I appreciate the qualities of an unmodified car quite a bit, as it is essentially a blank canvas to work with and has no prior blemishes from previous hackmonkeys. OTOH, the opposite is also true as some cars, the FD being noteworthy, have uncorrected faults from the factory as we all know. For this reason, I came up with a term, Opti-Stock, to describe the perfect balance between being unmolested and correcting flaws properly. If I were to find a bone-stock FD, it would receive the following mods per this philosophy:
R1/R2 dual oil coolers
Koyo N-flo radiator
S5 Fan thermoswitch
S4 coolant 'hat' (for AST elimination)
Upgraded alternator, such as one from a Ford Taurus
AGM Battery, such as a Deka Intimidator
Stainless Steel Downpipe
Hi-flow Cat
Racing Beat Catback
Silicone intake couplers
Silicone vacuum lines
Boost Gauge
Upgraded fuel pump, such as a Walbro 255, JZA80 Supra TT Pump or similar
Relocated fuel filter (easier access)
Relocated/upgraded turbo control solenoids (prevent heat-induced premature failure)
Heat-reflective sleeving for all underhood wiring
99-spec front bumper (better airflow to radiator)
This may seem like a rather lengthy list, but each item has a well-reasoned place. As we all know, the FD runs with a much smaller margin of error than its predecessors. In short, everything was downsized from the FC. Add an unwitting owner and a couple of modifications and the result is that one supporting component fails as it was already stressed from the factory.
For example, let's say you upgrade to a Supra fuel pump to ensure sufficient flow to support the freer-flowing exhaust components. This shifts the load from fuel delivery to electrical delivery, hence the Taurus alternator & Deka Intimidator battery. Once you give it a round of electrical upgrades, the weakest link becomes the cooling system as the engine is producing greater heat than its factory-stressed parts are capable of handing. So one needs the Koyo radiator, S5 fan thermoswitch & 99-spec bumper conversion. As for the oil coolers, it's a given that the FD needs all the help it can get there.
After you've solved cooling, you've got to deal with heat-related failures in the turbo control solenoids and engine harness(es). Break out the checkbook for some relocated industrial solenoids, wire wrap and silicone vacuum line. Since you'd be moving the solenoids and disassembling the intake plumbing, silicone intake couplers are next on the shopping list as the stock rubber ones would most likely disintegrate.
See the trend here? Balance is the key
R1/R2 dual oil coolers
Koyo N-flo radiator
S5 Fan thermoswitch
S4 coolant 'hat' (for AST elimination)
Upgraded alternator, such as one from a Ford Taurus
AGM Battery, such as a Deka Intimidator
Stainless Steel Downpipe
Hi-flow Cat
Racing Beat Catback
Silicone intake couplers
Silicone vacuum lines
Boost Gauge
Upgraded fuel pump, such as a Walbro 255, JZA80 Supra TT Pump or similar
Relocated fuel filter (easier access)
Relocated/upgraded turbo control solenoids (prevent heat-induced premature failure)
Heat-reflective sleeving for all underhood wiring
99-spec front bumper (better airflow to radiator)
This may seem like a rather lengthy list, but each item has a well-reasoned place. As we all know, the FD runs with a much smaller margin of error than its predecessors. In short, everything was downsized from the FC. Add an unwitting owner and a couple of modifications and the result is that one supporting component fails as it was already stressed from the factory.
For example, let's say you upgrade to a Supra fuel pump to ensure sufficient flow to support the freer-flowing exhaust components. This shifts the load from fuel delivery to electrical delivery, hence the Taurus alternator & Deka Intimidator battery. Once you give it a round of electrical upgrades, the weakest link becomes the cooling system as the engine is producing greater heat than its factory-stressed parts are capable of handing. So one needs the Koyo radiator, S5 fan thermoswitch & 99-spec bumper conversion. As for the oil coolers, it's a given that the FD needs all the help it can get there.
After you've solved cooling, you've got to deal with heat-related failures in the turbo control solenoids and engine harness(es). Break out the checkbook for some relocated industrial solenoids, wire wrap and silicone vacuum line. Since you'd be moving the solenoids and disassembling the intake plumbing, silicone intake couplers are next on the shopping list as the stock rubber ones would most likely disintegrate.
See the trend here? Balance is the key
03-09-13, 09:07 AM
#50
For me it's all about having a PROPERLY set-up FD. Stock FDs in good shape are typically properly running and people like that. You dont smell like gas, and they are quiet, they don't squeak and rattle, etc. That being said, after driving a stock FD for a while, I know would start to mod it, because I enjoy that aspect of FD ownership.
If you don't go too far, and keep in mind that this car will be street driven, you can enjoy almost any well done and balenced FD set-up (ported engine, single turbo, 20B, etc). If you go too far over the top or do things cheaply, you're not going to enjoy driving it and a stock FD will start to look more and more desirable.
All that being said, out of my 5 FD set-ups (stock, modded with twins, 3 singles), my favorite config is still modded with stock sequential twins at 14 lbs with a nice suspension and a high flow cat at around 300+ whp. I just keep buying cars with singles, but one day I'll go back.
If you don't go too far, and keep in mind that this car will be street driven, you can enjoy almost any well done and balenced FD set-up (ported engine, single turbo, 20B, etc). If you go too far over the top or do things cheaply, you're not going to enjoy driving it and a stock FD will start to look more and more desirable.
All that being said, out of my 5 FD set-ups (stock, modded with twins, 3 singles), my favorite config is still modded with stock sequential twins at 14 lbs with a nice suspension and a high flow cat at around 300+ whp. I just keep buying cars with singles, but one day I'll go back
.