Why is a stock rx7 so nice to some people?
03-09-13, 09:12 AM
#51
Rotor or no motor
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i would take a single fd over the twins ANY DAY.. as long as the single turbo is done properly, with the right size turbo, manifold exhaust and such.
i even have the newer version harness where the ratsnest is much more simplified than the 93-95 and still believe that the complexity of the system is what ruins it. when it works, its great but it doesnt take much for that to go downhill .
on the long run, single turbo is for the best even if it only makes ~320whp.
Simplicity is the key especially for cars that old.
My latest project is single turbo and drives like a stock. crazy responsive aswell.
Even though i do agree with some guys about modifying them and going to the right shop. normally u would have to go back to fix the tune or something that wasn't done properly
i even have the newer version harness where the ratsnest is much more simplified than the 93-95 and still believe that the complexity of the system is what ruins it. when it works, its great but it doesnt take much for that to go downhill .
on the long run, single turbo is for the best even if it only makes ~320whp.
Simplicity is the key especially for cars that old.
My latest project is single turbo and drives like a stock. crazy responsive aswell.
Even though i do agree with some guys about modifying them and going to the right shop. normally u would have to go back to fix the tune or something that wasn't done properly
03-09-13, 09:24 AM
#52
For me, it's out of respect to the sweat and dedication that Mazda has shown the rotary engine that I would never consider a V8 swap. How many twin turbo V8 swaps do you see in Ferrari's or Lambo's? Why not? Because doing so would kill the soul of the car. I guess I feel the same way about Mazda rotaries. I know that many have differing opinions on this topic. I'm just stating why I stick with the rotary.
The mazda engineers went to great lengths to perfect the sequential system and it's one of if not the most distinguishing driving characteristic this car has and is a huge part of it's driving fun especially at low street level speeds and for this reason I feel like removing it really diminishes the over all vibe of the car and until you've driven one with a perfectly operating sequential setup you can't say you've truly experienced an FD at it's best.
Agreed. Mine is much faster overall since going single, but when it ran properly with stock twins making 340 RWHP, it was a hoot to drive and you could throttle manage it to the edge of tire adhesion coming out of corners. Very predictable, tossable and FLAT OUT FUN to drive!!
The mazda engineers went to great lengths to perfect the sequential system and it's one of if not the most distinguishing driving characteristic this car has and is a huge part of it's driving fun especially at low street level speeds and for this reason I feel like removing it really diminishes the over all vibe of the car and until you've driven one with a perfectly operating sequential setup you can't say you've truly experienced an FD at it's best.
03-10-13, 05:25 AM
#54
In my mind a stock RX-7 is the perfection of the sports car. The twin rotor twin turbo setup works just great and is so unusual.
My VR Touring is bone stock and the only reliability mod I have done is to replace the AST with a new stock Mazda one. It has all the power I need. Once you start changing stuff, it will never be the same.
As far as downpipe, I might change at some point but not with the 19,000 garaged stock miles I have on the car now. Plus a stock DP is better insulated to keep in heat than an aftermarket DP.
I do not want to start an argument with that last sentence as I know most people will disagree with me.
My VR Touring is bone stock and the only reliability mod I have done is to replace the AST with a new stock Mazda one. It has all the power I need. Once you start changing stuff, it will never be the same.
As far as downpipe, I might change at some point but not with the 19,000 garaged stock miles I have on the car now. Plus a stock DP is better insulated to keep in heat than an aftermarket DP.
I do not want to start an argument with that last sentence as I know most people will disagree with me.
03-10-13, 12:06 PM
#55
I don't think anyone here has mentioned this, but one of the major problems, eventually, with modifying FD's is wiring and electrical generally. Having been around these cars and many tuner shops for 20 years, one conclusion is inevitable... most tuners are clueless on electrical systems and wiring. Even when you and your tuner are trying to build a very reliable single turbo setup, and it makes good power and is great for some time, wiring and electrical issues can arise and be very, very hard to identify and correct. Although I'm sure its been done by some tuners at some time, I have never seen a wiring setup where the tuner has properly identified each wire, permanently via, say, a label sealed under clear shrink wrap. And, where a wiring diagram has been provided by the tuner to the customer.
I have seen wires run improperly near heat sources that melted and shorted out the ECU (PFS did that to my old FD). I have seen engine fires. I have seen guys spend months and go from one shop to another trying to find the problem. And, given the age of the cars, a 2 or 3 or more owner FD often has several sets of wiring where the old wires have been left in the car and the new wiring just added. Anyone who has ever seen an FD with the center console removed is likely to have seen a wiring nightmare. If you go to the build section, you can see many guys who are into doing the wiring right and it may look over the top with Milspec this and that, but it is a recognition of the issue.
If you do a single turbo conversion yourself, you should be able to ensure the wiring and electrical is good, but many don't have the time, inclination, or ability to do it themselves, and end up with a tuner doing the work. Almost no one I know who has done an upgrade at a tuner shop has drilled down and investigated the wiring that the tuner did and most or many problems arising from electrical and wiring done wrong or not done right anyway don't show up on the dyno in the tuner's shop. It shows up weeks or months later.
So, another reason the truly stock FD's are so attractive is that the wiring hasn't been tampered with...
Gordon
I have seen wires run improperly near heat sources that melted and shorted out the ECU (PFS did that to my old FD). I have seen engine fires. I have seen guys spend months and go from one shop to another trying to find the problem. And, given the age of the cars, a 2 or 3 or more owner FD often has several sets of wiring where the old wires have been left in the car and the new wiring just added. Anyone who has ever seen an FD with the center console removed is likely to have seen a wiring nightmare. If you go to the build section, you can see many guys who are into doing the wiring right and it may look over the top with Milspec this and that, but it is a recognition of the issue.
If you do a single turbo conversion yourself, you should be able to ensure the wiring and electrical is good, but many don't have the time, inclination, or ability to do it themselves, and end up with a tuner doing the work. Almost no one I know who has done an upgrade at a tuner shop has drilled down and investigated the wiring that the tuner did and most or many problems arising from electrical and wiring done wrong or not done right anyway don't show up on the dyno in the tuner's shop. It shows up weeks or months later.
So, another reason the truly stock FD's are so attractive is that the wiring hasn't been tampered with...
Gordon
issue is the harnesses cost an arm and a leg, most customers unwilling to spend another $1k for a new harness. old dry rotted insulators cracked, wiring rubbing together and broken clips make for many phantom gremlins.
in fact i prefer the older builds, ripping all that crap out and making a new harness which nets almost no problems versus trying to salvage what is in the car.
every FD i do an R+R on(well all rotaries for that matter) get a rewrap of the harness and any bad spots get repaired. it's a waste of time redoing your work when you put it together and the car has erratic issues. the only other place that is problematic for the engine is the fuel pump relay system, which i admit i only go into when a problem presents itself.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 03-10-13 at 12:11 PM.
03-10-13, 12:47 PM
#56
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In my mind a stock RX-7 is the perfection of the sports car. The twin rotor twin turbo setup works just great and is so unusual.
My VR Touring is bone stock and the only reliability mod I have done is to replace the AST with a new stock Mazda one. It has all the power I need. Once you start changing stuff, it will never be the same.
As far as downpipe, I might change at some point but not with the 19,000 garaged stock miles I have on the car now. Plus a stock DP is better insulated to keep in heat than an aftermarket DP.
I do not want to start an argument with that last sentence as I know most people will disagree with me.
My VR Touring is bone stock and the only reliability mod I have done is to replace the AST with a new stock Mazda one. It has all the power I need. Once you start changing stuff, it will never be the same.
As far as downpipe, I might change at some point but not with the 19,000 garaged stock miles I have on the car now. Plus a stock DP is better insulated to keep in heat than an aftermarket DP.
I do not want to start an argument with that last sentence as I know most people will disagree with me.
I've never swapped out a low mileage precat if it was already on a FD I was driving because as you've mentioned there's no need to. Not to mention doing it will up the boost about a pound, risk snapping a stud, risk not getting a good seal and having an exhaust leak etc....
03-10-13, 01:48 PM
#58
Because the car has some inherit problems right from the get go. For example: The plastic end tanks on the rad tend to crack, and so does the plastic AST, the precat has a tendency to fall appart on the inside. Change those out and the car still pretty much stock.
But every time I see a stock FD on the FS thread, ppl are so eager and happy to purchase it stock and make comments like, "Id like to drive a stock rx7, it needs no modification at all, Its so nice" and these are comments from the veterans on the forum
So Im just asking for an explanation lol
So Im just asking for an explanation lol
But the truth is a stock fd is SLOOOW.... Yep it was fast in 1992 and in a world of other stock vehicles and thus it got a reputation of 'fast'. But put it against mildly modified 1992 mustang 5.0 and around 80 mph you will be seeing tailights. A fully stock fd is pretty darn fast below 80 but at around 75 ish oh man that acceleration just drops as the car begins to be chocked out by the stock setup. In fact, the true boost pattern in 10-8-10-8 as at around 6900 rpms the boost drops down to 8 psi. So what do people do? they replace parts with free flowing components and wow it really makes a world of difference. But the vast majority don't stop there as once they get bit by the bug they cant stop and thats where the major problems arise.
Cause you should do the reliability mods, but at the same time, stock is just fine?
03-10-13, 05:22 PM
#59
Lots of us who have enjoyed nice twin turbo cars will absolutely agree with your 1st statement and I'm one of the few that agrees with your last sentence as well BUT......hehe the cat is there so it does heat up the engine bay more than a well insulated (wrapped) dp would. BEST answer for keeping the car stock/safe and cool and eliminating the worries of the precat is to go with the JDM oem dp which is the stock diameter and also has great heat shielding build around the pipe.
I've never swapped out a low mileage precat if it was already on a FD I was driving because as you've mentioned there's no need to. Not to mention doing it will up the boost about a pound, risk snapping a stud, risk not getting a good seal and having an exhaust leak etc....
I've never swapped out a low mileage precat if it was already on a FD I was driving because as you've mentioned there's no need to. Not to mention doing it will up the boost about a pound, risk snapping a stud, risk not getting a good seal and having an exhaust leak etc....
Because even though I do not want to change my stock one now, I know it is a weak point on the 7.
03-10-13, 05:41 PM
#60
always something to fix
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Thanks for all this input guys
I learned so much, since I've never went any direction away from the stock twins.
My biggest issue is mpg
I get 14 average! !
I read on here some other ppl get 23 highway
I can only do 19.5 , on a 4 hour trip cruising 65mph.
I don't have money to blow, gas prices are ridiculous, and its my only car till spring when I start riding a bike.
The thing I love most is the looks of the car and feel of stock twins.
I love looking at my car lol
I learned so much, since I've never went any direction away from the stock twins.
My biggest issue is mpg
I get 14 average! !
I read on here some other ppl get 23 highway
I can only do 19.5 , on a 4 hour trip cruising 65mph.
I don't have money to blow, gas prices are ridiculous, and its my only car till spring when I start riding a bike.
The thing I love most is the looks of the car and feel of stock twins.
I love looking at my car lol
03-10-13, 08:07 PM
#62
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I have that though
I have massive stock IC, intakes, pfc, dp, high flow cat, rb catback, silicone hose job, deleted ast, disable air pump, deleted AWS, aftermarket FPR, aluminum flywheel, tial bov, supra fuel pump, apexi coil overs, turbo timer, koyo radiator, stock twins, no port, single oil cooler.
Im making 290 whp at 13 psi
I have massive stock IC, intakes, pfc, dp, high flow cat, rb catback, silicone hose job, deleted ast, disable air pump, deleted AWS, aftermarket FPR, aluminum flywheel, tial bov, supra fuel pump, apexi coil overs, turbo timer, koyo radiator, stock twins, no port, single oil cooler.
Im making 290 whp at 13 psi
03-10-13, 09:10 PM
#63
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I have that though
I have massive stock IC, intakes, pfc, dp, high flow cat, rb catback, silicone hose job, deleted ast, disable air pump, deleted AWS, aftermarket FPR, aluminum flywheel, tial bov, supra fuel pump, apexi coil overs, turbo timer, koyo radiator, stock twins, no port, single oil cooler.
Im making 290 whp at 13 psi
I have massive stock IC, intakes, pfc, dp, high flow cat, rb catback, silicone hose job, deleted ast, disable air pump, deleted AWS, aftermarket FPR, aluminum flywheel, tial bov, supra fuel pump, apexi coil overs, turbo timer, koyo radiator, stock twins, no port, single oil cooler.
Im making 290 whp at 13 psi
03-10-13, 09:15 PM
#64
The stock pre-cat retains heat and cooks the engine bay. The HKS downpipe is very similar to the JDM mazda one, you can usually find a used one for under $200 and wrap it. It keeps the stock exhaust support to the transmission. It does raise the boost a tad but it's within the safe realm. You would not be sorry.
03-10-13, 10:02 PM
#65
always something to fix
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The guy who tuned it said he only thought it was 250whp, his hp sensor was broken on the dyno, so i had to go to another place just to do 3 dyno runs and when i told the original guy it was 290, he was really surprised
I honestly though I would have 325 from everything I read
03-10-13, 10:33 PM
#66
While I have always wanted a modified FD, one that made more HP, I have yet to be able to bring myself to modify the 5 or 6 mostly stock FD's I have owned. I started out buying cars that didn't run, figuring I would save money. As Fritz and a few others pointed out, my "project cars" mostly sat and I never really enjoyed driving them. When I got back in to the rotary scene a few years ago, i bought a clean, lower mileage, running FD with reliability mods. Was great being able to just drive my car and enjoy it.
I have several friends that are high HP piston heads. They are always impressed by how quick my 20-yr old stock car is. It's not neck snapping like my friends Superformance Cobra, but it is quick.
I have several friends that are high HP piston heads. They are always impressed by how quick my 20-yr old stock car is. It's not neck snapping like my friends Superformance Cobra, but it is quick.
03-11-13, 05:23 AM
#68
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Because the car has some inherit problems right from the get go. For example: The plastic end tanks on the rad tend to crack, and so does the plastic AST, the precat has a tendency to fall appart on the inside. Change those out and the car still pretty much stock.
Because a fully stock fd is a joy to drive. It is sooo quiet even at wot, there isn't a stink either. It starts everytime and there isn't a concern about fuel delivery or about how bad one can beat on it. No real fear of a bad tank of gas either. What I am really saying is the lack of worry makes it a joy.
But the truth is a stock fd is SLOOOW.... Yep it was fast in 1992 and in a world of other stock vehicles and thus it got a reputation of 'fast'. But put it against mildly modified 1992 mustang 5.0 and around 80 mph you will be seeing tailights. A fully stock fd is pretty darn fast below 80 but at around 75 ish oh man that acceleration just drops as the car begins to be chocked out by the stock setup. In fact, the true boost pattern in 10-8-10-8 as at around 6900 rpms the boost drops down to 8 psi. So what do people do? they replace parts with free flowing components and wow it really makes a world of difference. But the vast majority don't stop there as once they get bit by the bug they cant stop and thats where the major problems arise.
See my first reply
Because a fully stock fd is a joy to drive. It is sooo quiet even at wot, there isn't a stink either. It starts everytime and there isn't a concern about fuel delivery or about how bad one can beat on it. No real fear of a bad tank of gas either. What I am really saying is the lack of worry makes it a joy.
But the truth is a stock fd is SLOOOW.... Yep it was fast in 1992 and in a world of other stock vehicles and thus it got a reputation of 'fast'. But put it against mildly modified 1992 mustang 5.0 and around 80 mph you will be seeing tailights. A fully stock fd is pretty darn fast below 80 but at around 75 ish oh man that acceleration just drops as the car begins to be chocked out by the stock setup. In fact, the true boost pattern in 10-8-10-8 as at around 6900 rpms the boost drops down to 8 psi. So what do people do? they replace parts with free flowing components and wow it really makes a world of difference. But the vast majority don't stop there as once they get bit by the bug they cant stop and thats where the major problems arise.
See my first reply
If you talk about 1/4 mile race i con agree. But put FD and modified mustang on Nürburgring, Suzuka, Fiorano or other track. Or on a tarmac rally corse or on a mountain pass. Surely the M can only est smoke.
FD si really fast in stock contidion. Obviously this change if you only need to go straight.
03-11-13, 07:00 PM
#69
Well its the truth.
^^with that argument might as well say a miata is fast as well. Seriously those little suckers can corner and you would be hard pressed to beat one at autoX. Those tracks (Nürburgring, Suzuka, Fiorano) that you listed have an average lap speed of over 100 MPH which means a stock FD would get eaten up in the straights.
Besides real life is not all about track racing or 1/4 mile so the fact remains that a stock FD with 225 RWHP is not fast past 75 MPH. Sorry man, it is what it is.
Besides real life is not all about track racing or 1/4 mile so the fact remains that a stock FD with 225 RWHP is not fast past 75 MPH. Sorry man, it is what it is.
Last edited by Montego; 03-11-13 at 07:12 PM.
03-12-13, 08:38 AM
#70
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I haven't driven a stock FD in a long time.
When I first got my car I daily drove it for 2yrs. Only putting it away in the winter.
But she served me well for those 2 years I drove her. Eventually though, she needed a few things changed.
After parking for a short period of time at a mall, I came back out to find some leaking coming from the car. The AST cracked open. Had to tow the car home and wait for the weekdays so I can pick up a new one.
Then after work 1 day, I got to the parking garage to find a huge puddle of antifreeze. The end tanks on the rad went.
That's when I took the plunge and started to mod the car.
I wanted more reliability. If it manage to give me more power, so be it.
Started out with Apexi FMIC kit for the twins. I also got rid of the precat and changed out the exhaust to an Apex i NC duel exhaust. Not to mention getting a Fluidyne rad and eliminating the AST altogether.
Car was massively different after doing that. I noticed the reaction time in the front changed. It was much quicker to change directions.
Drove around like that for awhile until the rats nest did the turbos in. I decided to get rid of the entire process.
Got a Gt35R and never looked back.
Car is infinitely more reliable now. She might have lost a tiny bit of inital spool really down low in the rev range. But as long as you're above 1800rpm, she spools like there's no tomorrow.
Nothing crazy either. I think the 1 and only time I dyno'ed it (to get some tunning done) she made about 380 or so at the wheels. I was more than pleased with the car. She ran smoother, and made more power. Not that she needed more power. But if I could get it without sacrificing reliability, why not?
After awhile I had to do some other changes like the suspension and other cosmetic things.
For the most part, I'm done fiddling with it. She won't make more power, and she's as reliable as she's going to get.
I will need to get some oil coolers since she's still running on the original single oil cooler from the factory. Spent alot of time trying to unbend the majority of those fins. But some of them broke. Giong to pony up for the Sakebomb garage duel oil cooler kit.
apart from that, getting some HID pop ups, some brakes, and wishful thinking of getting the Recaros' from the RZ. And she'll finally be done.
When I first got my car I daily drove it for 2yrs. Only putting it away in the winter.
But she served me well for those 2 years I drove her. Eventually though, she needed a few things changed.
After parking for a short period of time at a mall, I came back out to find some leaking coming from the car. The AST cracked open. Had to tow the car home and wait for the weekdays so I can pick up a new one.
Then after work 1 day, I got to the parking garage to find a huge puddle of antifreeze. The end tanks on the rad went.
That's when I took the plunge and started to mod the car.
I wanted more reliability. If it manage to give me more power, so be it.
Started out with Apexi FMIC kit for the twins. I also got rid of the precat and changed out the exhaust to an Apex i NC duel exhaust. Not to mention getting a Fluidyne rad and eliminating the AST altogether.
Car was massively different after doing that. I noticed the reaction time in the front changed. It was much quicker to change directions.
Drove around like that for awhile until the rats nest did the turbos in. I decided to get rid of the entire process.
Got a Gt35R and never looked back.
Car is infinitely more reliable now. She might have lost a tiny bit of inital spool really down low in the rev range. But as long as you're above 1800rpm, she spools like there's no tomorrow.
Nothing crazy either. I think the 1 and only time I dyno'ed it (to get some tunning done) she made about 380 or so at the wheels. I was more than pleased with the car. She ran smoother, and made more power. Not that she needed more power. But if I could get it without sacrificing reliability, why not?
After awhile I had to do some other changes like the suspension and other cosmetic things.
For the most part, I'm done fiddling with it. She won't make more power, and she's as reliable as she's going to get.
I will need to get some oil coolers since she's still running on the original single oil cooler from the factory. Spent alot of time trying to unbend the majority of those fins. But some of them broke. Giong to pony up for the Sakebomb garage duel oil cooler kit.
apart from that, getting some HID pop ups, some brakes, and wishful thinking of getting the Recaros' from the RZ. And she'll finally be done.
03-12-13, 10:44 AM
#71
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Is there any way to get reliability out of stock twins lol
I hate how many vacuum hoses there are when compared to a single set up, with way less.
I refuse to go single cause I really enjoy the sequential feeling, I was actually thinking about going BNR twins, but theres always some other problem that pops up =/
Maybe its cause I bought the car modded
I hate how many vacuum hoses there are when compared to a single set up, with way less.
I refuse to go single cause I really enjoy the sequential feeling, I was actually thinking about going BNR twins, but theres always some other problem that pops up =/
Maybe its cause I bought the car modded
03-12-13, 11:42 AM
#72
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
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another big plus with going single turbo, your internal fan no longer pumps hot air into the cabin! You select the cold side, and it actually gives you cool air! I was so surprised by this the first time I had the single.
Couldn't believe how much less heat there was. Those stock twins are murder for heat.
Couldn't believe how much less heat there was. Those stock twins are murder for heat.
03-12-13, 11:44 AM
#73
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Well its the truth.
^^with that argument might as well say a miata is fast as well. Seriously those little suckers can corner and you would be hard pressed to beat one at autoX. Those tracks (Nürburgring, Suzuka, Fiorano) that you listed have an average lap speed of over 100 MPH which means a stock FD would get eaten up in the straights.
Besides real life is not all about track racing or 1/4 mile so the fact remains that a stock FD with 225 RWHP is not fast past 75 MPH. Sorry man, it is what it is.
^^with that argument might as well say a miata is fast as well. Seriously those little suckers can corner and you would be hard pressed to beat one at autoX. Those tracks (Nürburgring, Suzuka, Fiorano) that you listed have an average lap speed of over 100 MPH which means a stock FD would get eaten up in the straights.
Besides real life is not all about track racing or 1/4 mile so the fact remains that a stock FD with 225 RWHP is not fast past 75 MPH. Sorry man, it is what it is.
I can't agree here.
Let me explain. How do you claim this speed fact?
You consider only top speed? Or you only consider power?
On Nordschleife lap time say that rx7 is fast and that there aren't fat bison mustang in The top20 list.
On a open road mountain pass there is't story.
Again I ask you where you sede this slowness?
Probably you say also that an NA M3 si slower then some 600 HP 1800 KG car?
This isn't an attack against you i really want to know how you judge rx7 slow. What tipe of use you mean?
Btw rx7 is not 265 or 280 hp? I mean here there isn't 225 hp 13b rew
03-12-13, 01:32 PM
#74
Recovering Miataholic
Except for the speed of light, all velocity is relative. At the equator one is traveling easterly at about 1000 mph while sitting in a lawn chair drinking a Margarita. Then too, the Earth is traveling around the Sun at about 67,500 mph. And of course the entire solar system is shuffling around the Milky way at around 300,000 mph. So you think a 500 - 600 hp RX-7 is "fast," but a stock FD is "slow above 75 mph?" Permit me to adjust your thinking!