Traction or lack there off
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From: CT
Traction or lack there off
I am getting horrendous traction in first. Even under half throttle when boost comes on the tires break loose in first. Under wot first gear is basically worthless and is similar to driving in the rain. The car is only making 375 but has 275 or 285 width tires. ( I forget). That width tire should help. It did in my first fd which was making 365. When I was running stock sized tires I wasn't getting traction but when I upgraded I was hooking up nicely.
I have zeal shocks. The fronts are set hard and the rear are set medium. The rear sway is stock. The front sway is a mild tanabe. I love the way the car rides so I really don't want to f with that.
The last thing to check is the alignment. Would this play a roll? I don't think it's off by much. For the rear what would be an optimal alignment to enhance traction?
Are there any other things I can do to increase traction? For the sake of clarity I am not talking about launching the car. I am talking gingerly taking of in first gear, once boost hits it shreds the tires. I am not talking about over steer either. It has to be the alignment, no?
I have zeal shocks. The fronts are set hard and the rear are set medium. The rear sway is stock. The front sway is a mild tanabe. I love the way the car rides so I really don't want to f with that.
The last thing to check is the alignment. Would this play a roll? I don't think it's off by much. For the rear what would be an optimal alignment to enhance traction?
Are there any other things I can do to increase traction? For the sake of clarity I am not talking about launching the car. I am talking gingerly taking of in first gear, once boost hits it shreds the tires. I am not talking about over steer either. It has to be the alignment, no?
What kind of tires do you have? My first thought is get a stickier compound.
What kind of alignment settings do you have now? Lot's of negative camber is good for cornering, but bad for straight-line traction.
What spring rate are you using?
What kind of alignment settings do you have now? Lot's of negative camber is good for cornering, but bad for straight-line traction.
What spring rate are you using?
You should definitely check the alignment of any new to you car, but since its spinning tires easily and not just oversteer I don't know how likely it is alignment.
Unless its bad damage from a wreck, but even that would affect just one side.
It might be the fact that the car makes so little low rpm power that you are half throttle to keep from stalling it and then once rpm rises and boost kicks in you are still at half throttle which is way too much for 1st gear.
I have had this issue from both poor ecu tuning and from poor porting on my own cars.
Poor fuel tuning or tps signal/implementation has caused my car to have too little power at low rpm or throttle input and then be fine at high rpm or throttle input. This makes it really hard to regulate power with the throttle.
Do you have a way to look at TPS signal? You should be able to drive around normally including from stops with under 15% TPS. If your TPS is consistently above 15% in your "normal" driving you might have a tuning issue as above.
I also had similar problems when I ported my motor too big. Over a certain rpm/boost threshold very little throttle was pretty much the same power as full throttle.
On my overported car it wasn't the same as turbo lag at all. I would get full boost ~3,500rpm but it wasn't until 5,000rpm that the throttle made basically no difference on power production.
Went with a smaller port and power was manageable with throttle at all rpms on exact same turbo and everything else.
Although, since no one would reasonably expect traction in 1st over 3,000rpm you probably aren't experiencing this overported problem I am describing.
Unless its bad damage from a wreck, but even that would affect just one side.
It might be the fact that the car makes so little low rpm power that you are half throttle to keep from stalling it and then once rpm rises and boost kicks in you are still at half throttle which is way too much for 1st gear.
I have had this issue from both poor ecu tuning and from poor porting on my own cars.
Poor fuel tuning or tps signal/implementation has caused my car to have too little power at low rpm or throttle input and then be fine at high rpm or throttle input. This makes it really hard to regulate power with the throttle.
Do you have a way to look at TPS signal? You should be able to drive around normally including from stops with under 15% TPS. If your TPS is consistently above 15% in your "normal" driving you might have a tuning issue as above.
I also had similar problems when I ported my motor too big. Over a certain rpm/boost threshold very little throttle was pretty much the same power as full throttle.
On my overported car it wasn't the same as turbo lag at all. I would get full boost ~3,500rpm but it wasn't until 5,000rpm that the throttle made basically no difference on power production.
Went with a smaller port and power was manageable with throttle at all rpms on exact same turbo and everything else.
Although, since no one would reasonably expect traction in 1st over 3,000rpm you probably aren't experiencing this overported problem I am describing.
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
tire pressure matters too. also condition and type of tyre is important.
on one Rx7 i had, i bought tiger paws or something, and they go to like half tread and then stopped wearing, i bought em in 1998 and they were still half tread in 2008, and that is after 3 years of trackdays, and it was a DD most of that time too.
needless to say it was traction limited!
you might wanna look at the hoops.
on one Rx7 i had, i bought tiger paws or something, and they go to like half tread and then stopped wearing, i bought em in 1998 and they were still half tread in 2008, and that is after 3 years of trackdays, and it was a DD most of that time too.
needless to say it was traction limited!
you might wanna look at the hoops.
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From: CT
It might the tires as someone pointed out . They are ten yrs old. There is plenty of tread left. Anyone else agree? Do they in fact have a usuable life beyond tread wear?
What is considered too much camber? The last alignment had -1.5 in rear. I am not sure if still there. I am going on Sunday for a new alignment. Part of this question and thread is to figure out the correct specs for a mostly street driven fd.
The tires are bf Goodrich Gforce sports.
I don't know if I agree that any reasonable person would consider traction above 3k in first an impossibility on a car making 375 with 275 width tires
What is considered too much camber? The last alignment had -1.5 in rear. I am not sure if still there. I am going on Sunday for a new alignment. Part of this question and thread is to figure out the correct specs for a mostly street driven fd.
The tires are bf Goodrich Gforce sports.
I don't know if I agree that any reasonable person would consider traction above 3k in first an impossibility on a car making 375 with 275 width tires
You should definitely check the alignment of any new to you car, but since its spinning tires easily and not just oversteer I don't know how likely it is alignment.
Unless its bad damage from a wreck, but even that would affect just one side.
It might be the fact that the car makes so little low rpm power that you are half throttle to keep from stalling it and then once rpm rises and boost kicks in you are still at half throttle which is way too much for 1st gear.
I have had this issue from both poor ecu tuning and from poor porting on my own cars.
Poor fuel tuning or tps signal/implementation has caused my car to have too little power at low rpm or throttle input and then be fine at high rpm or throttle input. This makes it really hard to regulate power with the throttle.
Do you have a way to look at TPS signal? You should be able to drive around normally including from stops with under 15% TPS. If your TPS is consistently above 15% in your "normal" driving you might have a tuning issue as above.
I also had similar problems when I ported my motor too big. Over a certain rpm/boost threshold very little throttle was pretty much the same power as full throttle.
On my overported car it wasn't the same as turbo lag at all. I would get full boost ~3,500rpm but it wasn't until 5,000rpm that the throttle made basically no difference on power production.
Went with a smaller port and power was manageable with throttle at all rpms on exact same turbo and everything else.
Although, since no one would reasonably expect traction in 1st over 3,000rpm you probably aren't experiencing this overported problem I am describing.
Unless its bad damage from a wreck, but even that would affect just one side.
It might be the fact that the car makes so little low rpm power that you are half throttle to keep from stalling it and then once rpm rises and boost kicks in you are still at half throttle which is way too much for 1st gear.
I have had this issue from both poor ecu tuning and from poor porting on my own cars.
Poor fuel tuning or tps signal/implementation has caused my car to have too little power at low rpm or throttle input and then be fine at high rpm or throttle input. This makes it really hard to regulate power with the throttle.
Do you have a way to look at TPS signal? You should be able to drive around normally including from stops with under 15% TPS. If your TPS is consistently above 15% in your "normal" driving you might have a tuning issue as above.
I also had similar problems when I ported my motor too big. Over a certain rpm/boost threshold very little throttle was pretty much the same power as full throttle.
On my overported car it wasn't the same as turbo lag at all. I would get full boost ~3,500rpm but it wasn't until 5,000rpm that the throttle made basically no difference on power production.
Went with a smaller port and power was manageable with throttle at all rpms on exact same turbo and everything else.
Although, since no one would reasonably expect traction in 1st over 3,000rpm you probably aren't experiencing this overported problem I am describing.
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
in a race tire, we almost always cook the rubber before we wear the tires out. usually people refer to the number of heat cycles, although depending on the tire, they have a max temp, and if you go over that its done. the more the tires heat cycle the less sticky they are.
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Funny I have this same issue... and the "production date" on the my tires read 2004... Its time for new rubber on my car too. Mine still have 6/32 so I am sure someone will by them on CL. lol
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
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From: Charlottesville VA 22901
Get some new tires. My favorite cheap rubber are the dunlop star specs
Street alignment:
1.2 camber front
1 rear
slight toe front or 1/16 total
zero rear
6.5 caster
Street alignment:
1.2 camber front
1 rear
slight toe front or 1/16 total
zero rear
6.5 caster
10-8-10-8
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 848
Likes: 12
From: Australia
I left my ex girlfriends house for the final time in the FD years ago, and it was the first time I'd admittedly driven it angry and with mechanical disregard. I just stomped my foot flat down as I entered onto the road outside the driveway. I was not ready or expecting it, but the rear tires spun quite easily in 1st as soon as boost came on. It felt like driving in the wet as you describe.
And I had a brand new set of four fairly soft MOMO summer tires on it at that point in time, which I'd only bought and installed about 2 months prior. So it wasn't tires.
And then more recently on Christmas day 2014, I took off a bit excitedly from some traffic lights, on the way to lunch with the inlaws. I may have given it too much, and it came on boost in 1st again. The LSD made the rear of the car step to the left as it lost traction, and this upset my wife in a very big way. She doesn't like fast cars, and she screamed as it was a bit too much for her liking.
Last edited by SA3R; Sep 23, 2015 at 08:33 AM.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
Likes: 413
From: Charlottesville VA 22901
You might want to rethink that. My stockish, sequential, automatic car spins the rears on dry tarmac if pushed past 3000rpm in 1st.
I left my ex girlfriends house for the final time in the FD years ago, and it was the first time I'd admittedly driven it angry and with mechanical disregard. I just stomped my foot flat down as I entered onto the road outside the driveway. I was not ready or expecting it, but the rear tires spun quite easily in 1st as soon as boost came on. It felt like driving in the wet as you describe.
And I had a brand new set of four fairly soft MOMO summer tires on it at that point in time, which I'd only bought and installed about 2 months prior. So it wasn't tires.
And then more recently on Christmas day 2014, I took off a bit excitedly from some traffic lights, on the way to lunch with the inlaws. I may have given it too much, and it came on boost in 1st again. The LSD made the rear of the car step to the left as it lost traction, and this upset my wife in a very big way. She doesn't like fast cars, and she screamed as it was a bit too much for her liking.
I left my ex girlfriends house for the final time in the FD years ago, and it was the first time I'd admittedly driven it angry and with mechanical disregard. I just stomped my foot flat down as I entered onto the road outside the driveway. I was not ready or expecting it, but the rear tires spun quite easily in 1st as soon as boost came on. It felt like driving in the wet as you describe.
And I had a brand new set of four fairly soft MOMO summer tires on it at that point in time, which I'd only bought and installed about 2 months prior. So it wasn't tires.
And then more recently on Christmas day 2014, I took off a bit excitedly from some traffic lights, on the way to lunch with the inlaws. I may have given it too much, and it came on boost in 1st again. The LSD made the rear of the car step to the left as it lost traction, and this upset my wife in a very big way. She doesn't like fast cars, and she screamed as it was a bit too much for her liking.
I have sequential BNRs making about 350 at 15psi and I don't spin out just slight spin in 1st at the transition with 255 star specs. And don't spin at all in second if I'm at good speed running through the gears.
PS yes I can see a more aggressive spin if it's below 40
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From: CT
shopping for tires now. I think that's likely the answer.
I am looking at the Bridgestone potenzas re-11 or re-71R. The 71R look like a copy of the Direzza ZII Star Spec which i am also interested in.
The Bridgestones seem to drive quiet and more comfortable than the Direzza. The reviews for both are outstanding.
Why is Bridgestone offering two RE models now? Tire rack doesnt have a review of the re-71r
I am looking at the Bridgestone potenzas re-11 or re-71R. The 71R look like a copy of the Direzza ZII Star Spec which i am also interested in.
The Bridgestones seem to drive quiet and more comfortable than the Direzza. The reviews for both are outstanding.
Why is Bridgestone offering two RE models now? Tire rack doesnt have a review of the re-71r
Tires
My FD makes 550rwhp on low boost. No spinning on 255's in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th when warmed. R-Compounds Maxxis RC-1 or NT01 hold it.
Nitto NT05 are a good choice, pretty sticky and cheap, probably would do the job without being an R-compound for your power level.
Also, IMO, its largely misunderstood that wider tires give more traction in straight line. In my experience, width = turning traction.
I've actually found skinnier tires, with taller side walls on 16" or 17" wheels do the best on straight line, as the forward/backward footprint is what counts here. I've even held traction through 3rd/4th pulls on the street w/ these 255's @ 650rwhp.
My FD makes 550rwhp on low boost. No spinning on 255's in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th when warmed. R-Compounds Maxxis RC-1 or NT01 hold it.
Nitto NT05 are a good choice, pretty sticky and cheap, probably would do the job without being an R-compound for your power level.
Also, IMO, its largely misunderstood that wider tires give more traction in straight line. In my experience, width = turning traction.
I've actually found skinnier tires, with taller side walls on 16" or 17" wheels do the best on straight line, as the forward/backward footprint is what counts here. I've even held traction through 3rd/4th pulls on the street w/ these 255's @ 650rwhp.
Last edited by Monsterbox; Sep 23, 2015 at 10:29 AM.
I can really recommend the Michelin Pilot Super Sports, they are fantastic true street tires, and my car makes as much or more power and doesn't have a problem on 275/35/18.
P
P
Thread Starter
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From: CT
Tires
My FD makes 550rwhp on low boost. No spinning on 255's in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th when warmed. R-Compounds Maxxis RC-1 or NT01 hold it.
Nitto NT05 are a good choice, pretty sticky and cheap, probably would do the job without being an R-compound for your power level.
Also, IMO, its largely misunderstood that wider tires give more traction in straight line. In my experience, width = turning traction.
I've actually found skinnier tires, with taller side walls on 16" or 17" wheels do the best on straight line, as the forward/backward footprint is what counts here. I've even held traction through 3rd/4th pulls on the street w/ these 255's @ 650rwhp.
My FD makes 550rwhp on low boost. No spinning on 255's in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th when warmed. R-Compounds Maxxis RC-1 or NT01 hold it.
Nitto NT05 are a good choice, pretty sticky and cheap, probably would do the job without being an R-compound for your power level.
Also, IMO, its largely misunderstood that wider tires give more traction in straight line. In my experience, width = turning traction.
I've actually found skinnier tires, with taller side walls on 16" or 17" wheels do the best on straight line, as the forward/backward footprint is what counts here. I've even held traction through 3rd/4th pulls on the street w/ these 255's @ 650rwhp.
Grease ball tires! So obvious I overlooked it.
I don't know if I agree that any reasonable person would consider traction above 3k in first an impossibility on a car making 375 with 275 width tires
I personally never had any luck with traction in 1st in my 340-420hp FC even on 255 ET street drag radials aired down to 12psi on a VHT coated drag strip. Just back off to where it spins a bit and keeps accelerating.
I am 100% sure I could have hooked 1st gear with non DOT wrinkle walls or with some drag oriented chassis set up (auto-x car).
I mean, I could get full traction in 1st- but when I looked back at the TPS data on the logs it was obvious I was getting to be a pretty good traction control device.
Took me by surprise the first time I saw my logs street tuning because I really thought I was flooring 1st and 2nd gears, but my brain was just equating "full acceleration" to "full throttle".
My Honda friend DD it on the steets on 255 RC-1 and after some attempts to accelerate without wheelspin from lights he said "I get it, you just shift before 3,000rpm."
No... I modulate the throttle I was thinking.
Watch Initial D subtitled. Stage 4 episode 8
I don't know if I agree that any reasonable person would consider traction above 3k in first an impossibility on a car making 375 with 275 width tires
I personally never had any luck with traction in 1st in my 340-420hp FC even on 255 ET street drag radials aired down to 12psi on a VHT coated drag strip. Just back off to where it spins a bit and keeps accelerating.
I am 100% sure I could have hooked 1st gear with non DOT wrinkle walls or with some drag oriented chassis set up (auto-x car).
I mean, I could get full traction in 1st- but when I looked back at the TPS data on the logs it was obvious I was getting to be a pretty good traction control device.
Took me by surprise the first time I saw my logs street tuning because I really thought I was flooring 1st and 2nd gears, but my brain was just equating "full acceleration" to "full throttle".
My Honda friend DD it on the steets on 255 RC-1 and after some attempts to accelerate without wheelspin from lights he said "I get it, you just shift before 3,000rpm."
No... I modulate the throttle I was thinking.
Watch Initial D subtitled. Stage 4 episode 8
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 252
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From: DC Metro
Traction or lack there off
Originally Posted by matty
shopping for tires now. I think that's likely the answer.
I am looking at the Bridgestone potenzas re-11 or re-71R. The 71R look like a copy of the Direzza ZII Star Spec which i am also interested in.
The Bridgestones seem to drive quiet and more comfortable than the Direzza. The reviews for both are outstanding.
Why is Bridgestone offering two RE models now? Tire rack doesnt have a review of the re-71r
I am looking at the Bridgestone potenzas re-11 or re-71R. The 71R look like a copy of the Direzza ZII Star Spec which i am also interested in.
The Bridgestones seem to drive quiet and more comfortable than the Direzza. The reviews for both are outstanding.
Why is Bridgestone offering two RE models now? Tire rack doesnt have a review of the re-71r
*the other is the BFG Rival S.
My star specs have an 09 date code on them and are starting to feel like McDonald's trays when pushed to the limit... just got a set of new DZ102s for my miata project and they feel wayyyy stickier.
Def get new tires, I know I am.
Def get new tires, I know I am.
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From: CT
the dunlop star specs and the bridgestone re-71r are identical in pricing from tire rack. The pattern is almost identical as well. I am going to go with the re-71 given the $70 mail-in rebate.
Great comments in this thread. ty for feedback.
Great comments in this thread. ty for feedback.
Old/hard tires notwithstanding, something does seem odd as I reread this... I can see not having the grip on old tires when you stand on it, but the description makes it sound uncontrollable/unavoidable/unmodulateable, which is very strange even for a car with 1000 horsepower.
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From: CT
I don't know what leads you to that conclusion. I could easily stay off boost and I could easily modulate the throttle. In my posts I simply mention that under half throttle the tires break loose. Some others are talking about porting, lack of low end, unable to control throttle, etc. I have no idea where that comes from frankly and how it enters into my description of lack of traction.
I think the problem is solved. I am running 10yr old rubber on a car making 375 hp and weighs 28-2900 lbs.
I think the problem is solved. I am running 10yr old rubber on a car making 375 hp and weighs 28-2900 lbs.
Old/hard tires notwithstanding, something does seem odd as I reread this... I can see not having the grip on old tires when you stand on it, but the description makes it sound uncontrollable/unavoidable/unmodulateable, which is very strange even for a car with 1000 horsepower.
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From: NZ
My old subi came from japan with snow tyres...that really opened my eyes as to how much good tyres really count towards traction! Needless to say those things were slippery!!! Put on some fire hawks and it was a whole new car.
iv had both dunlop direzza's and bridgestone potenza's on the FD. I think both are petty good. Id buy whichever I could get cheaper/easier
iv had both dunlop direzza's and bridgestone potenza's on the FD. I think both are petty good. Id buy whichever I could get cheaper/easier