Testrun

I am sure this topic has been talked to death. A quick search and I didnt find too much on what I was looking for. Curious as to why more people do not do the following....
1. Battery relocation. Is it because it is a pita? I was amazed at the amount of radiator being blocked by a damn battery. I had originally had mine relocated because I wanted to fit a massive IC in. Well, I put the big IC in anyway today, but was actually considering going with a medium and keeping more room open in rear of the radiator. Is it a common thought or fact fo that this doesn't help with cooling? This is of course speaking about the guys running stock or med sized IC.
2. Vented hood. Again I am new to the FD. I had FCs. I am blown away by the heat that this thing generates. To the point of not understanding the thought process of many people not getting a vented hood. Is it cost factor?, style?, or does it just not do that much?
3. More wrap or coatings on Y pipe, Intake tubes, intake Man, airbox, or anything keeping the heat away from induction. I understand some don't like the blankets on the turbos themselves as some feel it could possibly bake the bearings, but why not the Y pipe?
I am going to allow my account to recover a bit before I make my next big mods on her so I will be focusing on cleaning, detailing, and possibly some added thermal management. Just looking for some good ideas. I will start searching more particular components. I am asking because I am assuming most on here have been there done that.

mikejokich

iTrader: (1)

There are many different things you can do to manage heat in the FD. I am in the process of a total two year rebuild of my original FD I purchased new in 1994, which is nearing completion. I will eventually post a build thread on the car since the entire rebuild was geared to increase thermal efficiently and airflow and is still twin sequential with the newer Hitachi SP turbos, which put out 12% more air and can take much more boost. The turbos have special order custom actuators from Forge and special spring rates. I have a ram air type front bumper by Abflug, an Autoexe air box that takes in fresh air only through the front bumper, and EVERY pipe both exhaust and intake and the turbos are professionally ceramic coated for either barrier or heat dispersant, inside and out. Almost all pipes are extrude honed for laminar air flow and all manifolds are ported and the throttlebody is ported. The Autoexe airbox contains an induction 700 CFM water proof fan controlled by a PWM controller for air temperature, the intercooler is a U-type for dual pass for increased efficiency and the intercooler is coated with heat dispersant and dual SPAL fans 300CFM each draw only outside air into the intercooler airbox from the front bumper. I am using WMI or water-methanol injection with three sprayers, one at each turbo with the secondary solenoid controlled with special sensors, and one post IC. The intercooler is sprayed with liquid CO2, on demand, from a trunk mounted 15 lb.CO2 tank that causes the charge air leaving the intercooler to go below 0 degree C even under boost. I have data that shows the extrude honing increased the air through the UIM/LIM by 40% at low pressure. It will be much less at higher pressure but still good. Every 10 degree F drop in temperature on our car is between 1.5-1.8% increase in HP. Between the decreased charge temperature and the airflow efficiency, I fully expect to have the benefit of the sequential twin feel and the power, on demand if needed, of most people with small to mid sized single turbos and have no turbo lag and early and mid range torque. This will compete with BNR Stage 3 for HP but be way more efficient, run way cooler, and will be a beast in very hot weather.
Mike

Testrun

This is what I am talking about. Freaking awesome man. I would love to see your build. I plan on sticking with twins. Looking at BNR down the road, but many other things first.

Testrun

Curious, are you sticking with stock hood?

mikejokich

iTrader: (1)

I still have the stock hood for now. Since no air from under the hood enters the air intake or the intercooler, it doesn't matter that much. Because of the ceramic coating, the under hood temp should be much lower anyway.
Mike

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

#1: Because it is a PITA, routing heavy cable from the engine bay to either a bin or the already small hatch area. Because the use of car doesn't require the weight transfer or loss, and IMO relocating the battery won't contribute a lot to cooling.

#2. Vented hoods would be effective at reducing air pressure in the engine bay (behind the radiator and SMIC), sometimes polarizing styling tastes aside, hoods are expensive, most/all come with fitment issues, not as weather tight and probably should have pins installed.

#3. I think some have heat-coated the LIM/UIM. Go for it. It's debatable on the return for all the effort and expense. Not certain, but some may have coated the 'Y' pipe, but wrapping it probably isn't practical with the actuator. And since it's pre-IC and being heated from within from compressed air fresh from the turbo, I don't think you would see a significant difference in IAT's...all else being equal. (And this cooling is a different subject from engine cooling).

Bang for the buck I think either a WI (for engine cooling) or AI system (for IAT's and some engine cooling) are a better alternative.

Testrun

Thx Sgt. I just found a thread started by you awhile back. Searched via Google. My search on forum is sub par. Operator error I'm sure. Not just looking for HP, but looking for reliability/longevity. Agreed with Y pipe and wrapping, coating would be the way to go. I am not swapping bumpers, so dealing with a pre 99 and just trying to mitigate heat wherever possible. I need to fit some dual oil coolers also.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

Taking a stock FD to start with, here is what I would do -

- Remove the precat and put in a ceramic coated downpipe. The precat is a nuclear reactor of heat output and cooks EVERYTHING under the hood of the car. It's gotta go. The ceramic coating (I prefer Jet-Hot 2000) makes a MASSIVE difference in heat output and the coating is damn near bulletproof. As in you can't remove it with a wire wheel on a bench grinder, it won't scrape or mar. Buddy wrecked his car and the downpipe had a number of spots where it was bashed in and dented, the coating didn't flake or budge off the downpipe.

- Get an FC fan switch. The FD runs a way too hot coolant temperature stock - it will easily get up to 107 deg. C which is where the fan will kick on. The FC switch is 97 deg. C. Going with a PowerFC you can lower the ECU's fan temp with a Datalogit to 85 deg. C or so which really keeps coolant temps in check.

Just those things will reduce underwood temps by leaps and bounds.

The battery isn't that big of a deal, but it is bigger and heavier than it really needs to be. 90% of battery relocations I've seen have been problematic - battery is a pain to get to, car has weird electrical problems, etc.

Dale

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

mdp

If you want to reduce battery space the easiest thing to do is install a Odyssey PC680:

Since you're in So. Florida you don really need a battery sized for Frost Bite Falls, Minnesota.

Smokey The Talon

iTrader: (33)

As Dale mentioned ceramic coating the downpipe is a big difference in under-hood temps. At one point I had ceramic coated turbine housings on the twins too which helped, but I wasn't sure if it was worth the effort to do. I'm going to gold foil tape my intercooler end-tanks, but mostly just to try to keep them from heat-soaking when the radiator fans blast air over them.

I had a vented hood on my last FD. It absolutely helped with getting hot air out of the engine bay and reducing engine bay pressure. Both helped intake and water temps. But it also comes with compromises in terms of looks, having to use hood pins, and security (no latch). Also water goes in the vents and at the least makes a mess, but typically would dump right on top of my battery which always worried me. Up to you if those compromises are worth it, but with my current car I'm trying not to use a vented hood if I can.

Battery relocation is also a pain in the butt. I'm doing my best to avoid it, but likely will when going to a larger intercooler. I use a lithium battery now and I'll add more weight in cables and accessories doing the relocation then I'd ever gain with better weight distribution. Plus in my experience the RF corner is always the heaviest on the car, so they were right to put the battery there to try to balance it.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

On the subject of FC thermoswitch and battery:

With the FC thermoswitch, the after cooling function runs more often. This is hard on a smaller battery. With a "silver" or "gold" lead acid battery there are no issues from my experience. In USA auto parts stores, the lead acid batteries are mostly made by Johnson Controls, sold under various brand names like Duralast. Typically you'll see a standard, mid level ("silver") and a high output ("gold") with the rating increasing on each one.

When you switch to a weight saving battery you might be reducing the performance of the battery itself, which can cause problems with the after cooling.

mikejokich

iTrader: (1)

I agree that the extrude honing I did was costly and would not meet the cost-benefit ratio for most. The ceramic coating however was not very costly if you shop around and don't use the typical pricey vendor products. I used a shop in Tampa, FL that uses Tech-line products which are rated very good and the whole project cost around $900 for everything including the turbo heat shields. I have pictures included of everything except the downpipe. I also included my trunk area with the WMI tank and CO2 tank.
Mike

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

mikejokich

iTrader: (1)

I agree. I wouldn't have ripped everything out just to coat everything, but I was doing a total rebuild of everything from under the hood including a new engine harness(mine was disintegrating), suspension, brakes, rack and pinion, etc. I added 8 new electrical circuits including all the new fans, new fog lights, stealth radar detector, anti-laser, and the CO2 spray control. I have spent hundreds of hours over the last two years. Here is the ram air new front bumper and the U-type intercooler setup, which is one of the most efficient SMIC by surface area (3.8X stock), is dual pass, and is very compact. This intercooler has an efficiency rating of 89-90% before I coated it. I will do a post coating test this week to see the difference. I installed a custom made aluminum plate I designed myself that divides the upper bumper area from the lower hot radiator air side. Only fresh cool air enter the Autoexe air box. With the car stopped, the intercooler air box will take in some hot air since it is below the divider plate, but with the car moving this bumper's air duct goes directly into the intercooler air box opening.
Mike



Mike

Testrun

That is beautiful. Some serious cooling off that front end

H_M

iTrader: (7)

1. Wouldn't make much of a difference. The stock rad blows hot air directly in to the engine bay and on to the engine. A V-mount would be more beneficial but the engine will still get very hot by itself and heat soak when standing still.

2. I thought about getting a vented hood but I like to drive my car and sometimes that means driving it in the rain. So, I went with an electric water pump. Half the price and complete control over coolant temperatures.

3. I have a RHD, which means that the downpipe runs next to my left leg. I could feel the heat radiating from my foot well everytime I really got on the gas. I wrapped my DP and it made a huge difference.

Testrun

Currently I have
1.wrap on midpipe
2.alum radiator
3. Pettit IC with a bit of thermal barrier underneath and up the sides a little
4. Pettit cold intake with some barrier on the radiator side
5. Thermostat fan mod

I would like to try and put a barrier behind the intake to help keep some of the heat from the actual filters.
I wouldn't mind putting some form of thermal barrier on the intake tubes. I think it would look goofy and wouldn't think it could help too much.

I think I will end up with a vented hood. Seems like the easiest damn mod. It has to help tremendously. I will probably stick a probe and start recording temps soon and play around a bit.

mikejokich

iTrader: (1)

Almost everyone, including me, that has an aftermarket SMIC has tried to block the heat from crossing into the either the supplied airbox or the modified stock airbox. I have tried foil tape, foil insulation, etc. through the years to little success. I have had a discussion with the ceramic barrier people about coating the inside of the airbox, which would help, but most of the better coatings are baked in at 500 degrees F. Obviously, this works for metal pieces but would melt our airboxes of either PVC or other plastics or carbon fiber, which would destroy the glue component. I have found a product that I recently purchased called Lizardskin that many car restorers use to coat firewall, underbodies, etc. This is much thicker, sprayed on, has great adhesion, can withstand underhood temps of 350 degrees F, and can be top coated with a smooth glossy black paint they sell. Their testing on metal states it will barrier up to 30 degrees F on metal and this may greater on our plastic/carbon fiber products since metal heat transfer is greater. I plan on coating the inside of my intercooler airbox and my Autoexe air intake. I would coat the outside too, but I would rather not ruin the look of these carbon fiber products. I will report back after I finish and do some testing with a hair dryer and my dual temperature meter. Has anyone used this product for any of their airboxes?
Mike

alexdimen

iTrader: (13)

Hard to give advice without knowing where you are in modifying the car. Assuming it's stock everything

Personally I'm not a fan of coatings and I would go with real tried and true methods (this car has been around 25 years ffs) to reduce heat that have already been mentioned in this thead:

Basic budget mods, which is the tact I have taken aka low hanging fruits:
#1 Get rid of the pre-cat, add downpipe
#2 FC thermoswitch
#3 Aluminum radiator
#4 Cheap bastard intake
#5 Isolate intercooler ducting to feed ONLY the intercooler and extend duct inlet into bumper opening (I like to think of this as the broke a$$'s v-mount)
#6 PowerFC - Among countless advantages it allows you to actively monitor your coolant and air temp + gives you peak temps even without datalogging
#7 Fast acting intake temp sensor relocated to intake elbow - critical to getting real intake temp readings to your eyes and the ECU

Re ceramic coatings... I remain very skeptical about them in this application. I'd like to see some real data on the heat transfer characteristics of components before and after ceramic coatings. IF the goal is to insulate the parts to prevent convection and conductive heat transfer... basic heat transfer theory says that the thermal resistance of a substance is directly related to it's thickness... and with coatings you have almost no thickness. Add to that your enormous surface area and you might as well have bare steel/aluminum/etc. There's a reason industrial insulation on boilers/pipes/pressure vessels has actual thickness instead of a .010" thick coating... it's because you need that thickness to satisfy your heat transfer equations and maintain the delta T.

Testrun

Thx for the reply. I have pretty much done everything above minus the PFC.

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

Not a big brain, but intuitively, for heat to transfer from the intake components to the air you need material that will readily transfer the heat, a significant temperature differential AMD time of contact. In this situation, seems like you might have one, but not all. Also, I really don't think intake air temperatures BEFORE the turbos will have much, if any, effect. You need a good supply of air, preferably NOT from the iintercooler duct. But it's going to be compressed and heated by the turbo(s) anyway. So a couple of degrees from ambient (which is what I think we're talking about given the above) isn't going to make a significant difference post-turbo.
Plus, once moving, underhood temperatures of those components are going to change too, moving I think lower. So it's really the biggest concern when you've been parked idling.
And you can do before and after tests with a blow-drier or heat gun, but that's not a true test unless you have air moving fast thru the intake components at the same time. In any event IAT's are monitored POST-intercooler, so it's not going to influence a tune.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

OP, you don't need to go crazy with coatings and wraps. There's not going to be much/any benefit there. The bulk of the benefit will come from:

*Maintenance the cooling system
--Flush coolant, replace thermostat, check ALL coolant hoses
*Upgrade radiatior
--to at least something metal
*Upgrade intercooler
--to at least use it's own duct alone
*Upgrade oil coolers
--to at least OEM duals
*Upgrade intake
--to at least not hog IC air flow
*Get a downpipe
--to remove superheated cat from engine bay
*Lower the fan temps
--to help the FD run cooler, stock runs too hot to help with emissions

Maybe wrap or coat the downpipe. Maybe get a vented hood.

All the coating and reflective tape in the world isn't going to stop your manifolds and hot side pipes from getting hot. They're strapped to your engine block and moving hot air. The air moves so quickly through the pipes and intakes that their temperature really doesn't even impact IAT's.That's why your IC needs tiny tubes, internal fins, and forced airflow to work. Your IATs and water temps are dominated by the efficiency of your heat exchangers. Those coatings and foils are about about heat soak. That's why Mazda used rubber and composite pipes in the system, they don't heat soak or radiate. Think about that before you go switching to a bunch of metal pipes like a jabroni.

lOOkatme

iTrader: (19)

Testrun

I think it is time for me to experiment. I am sure it's already been done 100x, but what the hell.

I need a new oil cooler for sure. I will probably go dual. I just got back from a long drive and massive traffic. I don't see how a vented hood would not help immensely with under hood temps here in Miamo. I know the IC I put in is helping a lot compared to stock. The stock did have a lot of plastic vs the metal exposed, but there is no doubt even with the fan the new IC is getting heat soaked pretty bad.

Next mod is gauges and pfc. I just don't trust these factory gauges. Maybe because of age or because my tach is acting up. I will install an oil temp, press, and a dual air temp gauge. I will let the PFC handle water temp. The PFC will also handle the ambient temp. As for the air temp sensors I will put one sensor up by the intake filters and the other... hell I dunno. Somewhere else under the hood. Any ideas?
I guess what I would like to accomplish is see where my oil temps are currently, then with an upgraded cooler, followed by dual. See what affect that may have on water temps and obviously oil temps. As for the hood I am very curious as to how it will affect heat soak and just general all around under hood temps. May be a waste of time, but maybe I am still just jaw dropped at how hot it gets under there. Cant be good for longevity of anything. I am still just running 6-8lbs boost.

For the hood I am still ooking at the Seibon KS. It appears to have the vents in a nice location for the IC. Anyone have any idea where exactly the vents are located?