stickmantijuana

iTrader: (1)

First of all, I really want Steve Kan to tune my car. BUT it isn't that easy to have Steve tune the car when he lives over 1000 miles away (there also isn't enough local interests to fly him here). His tuning cost isn't the issue. The real issue is because like any 3 rotor, my 3 rotor is always a work in progress. Once I figure one thing out, it is another issue. I just can't see myself repeatedly take time off from work to drive to Texas (1400 miles) only to find out my fuel pressure isn't up to par in boost (installed a swirl pot then another Bosch 044), my engine oil pressure is no longer holding in high rpm (o-ring between front housing & front cover blew out), AFR is reading too lean (had v-band leak before o2 sensor), or who knows what else once I get to Texas--clutch slipping, transmission breaks, differential breaks, temperature issues, axle breaks, etc.?

This brings me to my local tuner. He's not a rotary guy, but he does tons of piston engines and has done a couple RX7's in the past. He has never done Microtech which is what I'm using. I'm not looking to make 1000whp. I only need about 500whp with GT42 3 rotor with street drivability at about 8-10psi. Once I get this basic tuning, drive it around for a few months, and work out all the kinks, only then I would want to drive over to Kan tuning for the final tune.

Can someone who is familiar with tuning both piston & rotary engine reply? someone who has had the experience of having rotary tuned by a piston tuner or someone who has tuned both systems in the past. If informed answer is that it must be done by a rotary tuner, that's not the end of the world; it'll just be very inconvenient and time consuming. What could also be very helpful would be some specific parameters or guidelines I can relay that will make an experienced piston tuner safe to tune a 3 rotor with Microtech. Thank you all.

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

First off, where are you and the car physically located at?

There are a few competent tuners on the east coast Steve Kahn is good, but he's not the ONLY person that knows what they're doing.

Second question... you put the time and money into a 20B... Why choose Microtech when there are so many better options.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

first off you should get those little things sorted out.

second thing, generally you won't hear knock in the engine, so most people will break it before they hear knock. be conservative.

stickmantijuana

iTrader: (1)

I'm currently in AZ. There are zero rotary guys around me.

I chose Haltech. I had PS2000 with M&W CDI box previously, but my car was rescued from death by Kiloracing in FL, and they only deal with Microtech. So I had to ditch my Haltech and go with Microtech for Jesus to start working on the car. Besides, I just want it running reliably, so microtech will do just fine. I had this discussion numerous times before. For what I want, Microtech is enough.

Gringo Grande

iTrader: (97)

Ah...I believe there is at least 1 well known rotary shop in AZ. Forget the name at the moment but I believe the owners name is Glen. One of the Mods in the 2nd Gen section who was on pinks knows the shop as well or does his own thing.

I'm pulling all of this from my butt at the moment so if I'm incorrect on any of this, please forgive me.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

^ I believe you are referring to AZ Rotary Rockets?

The tuning group has discussed these issues extensively.

I can tell you from extensive tuning of rotary and piston engines. There's really very little about the rotary engine that is somehow unique to it. All the various technologies on it have been on some piston engine somewhere. There are engines with staged port injection and two spark plugs per combustion chamber and even sequential turbos all available brand new right now, although nothing currently has all three.

Also, there are plenty of piston engines that can't hold up to knock too well. Ask any Subaru owner who has lost a piston.

Here's what trips people up on rotaries. First of all, you're almost always using a standalone. There isn't OEM level knock control. Even when reflashing the stock Rx-8 ECU the knock control system isn't very active. There is very crude learning capability on the ECU as far as fuel feedback and usually none is employed. Most people forget about failsafes like boost control. If I had to point to one mistake that owners/tuners make, outside of mechanical issues like failed fuel systems, it's too much spark advance. They think they're being conservative but they're not. There's simply not enough safety margin. Even with race fuel/E85 or water/meth too much spark causes high combustion pressure that can break things.

Here's where ego gets involved. Nobody wants to see their horsepower go down in the name of safety. They will outwardly acknowledge that it's important, but everybody wants internet bragging rights, both owners and tuners.

If you want to know how to tune a car that's reliable, study stock tunes on various engines, piston and rotary. That is also anathema to people. The idea is that as enthusiasts we tune cars--we see what the engine can do! We take back the power and torque that was given up in the name of emissions and being quiet!

But that's why, generally speaking, my tunes don't blow up. I make the hard choices and tell people what they don't want to hear. You don't see people posting "pm arghx, he will help you make a ton of power."

ondabirdhouse

iTrader: (26)

You know, Steve Kan does remote tuning. A few guys here in Jacksonville, FL set it up with a local shop and were very happy with their tunes. just something to consider.

Tem120

iTrader: (5)

^-- I welcome a safe tune over a max power tune , I abuse my car way tomuch and I rather have a car I an abuse all day , then one that I can dyno brag about .

stickmantijuana

iTrader: (1)

I understand ego does play a big part. That's why I will tell the piston tuner to make 500whp @ 6500 rpm, 8 psi, AFR=11, retard timing as much as possible, and stop. This is for 91 octane. Do you think this will be a safe proposition?

ondabirdhouse, how does Steve do the remote tuning? I'm running Microtech. I know he can view my computer with teamviewer program, but how will he know how much I'm making, adjust timings, and fuel accordingly? I have AEM wideband and I don't think that can be connected to the microtech ECU.

ondabirdhouse

iTrader: (26)

I haven't personally done it. But my understanding is he uses both Remote (teamviewer) + phone line in conjunction with the local dyno shop. He gets your mods etc and he then sets up a base map via "teamviewer" then while on the dyno he and your local tuner work together to fine tune the map. Essentially the local dyno shop tuner is the bridge between Steve and your ECU.

I'm sure you could email or call Steve and he could go over how he operates. From what I hear he is a standup guy and fantastic tuner.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i totally agree with that. most people don't take the time to find out what conservative actually is.

i've been roadracing for 10+ years and the factory ECU cars don't blow up, its not magic, the factory just took the time to make the corrections safe, and the main tune isn't running into detonation…

stickmantijuana

iTrader: (1)

arghx, would you share your timing map?

arghx

iTrader: (3)

^ I've posted maps in other places, like the Rtek forums. But here's one from a personal car that ran a T04R turbo and eventually made about 430rwhp on 93 octane only.





Note that these are Power FC maps, but if you look on the Y axis 10000 is approximately 100kPa absolute pressure (technically it's kg/cm^2).

AFR was 11.2:1 +/- 0.5:1 verified through testing in various weather changes. Ports were pretty large. Honestly I should've run an earlier intake closing timing and later exhaust opening and would have had a more well-rounded powerband.

I'll say this though. It's hard to tell how much spark is too much when you can't fully trust a knock sensor reading, you can't run steady-state tests on an engine dyno, and you can't see combustion chamber pressure and burn rates. That's why the safety margin is important.

stickmantijuana

iTrader: (1)

thanks arghx!

I am comparing your map with mine and I have a couple questions.
1. 1000 on your y-axis is ~ 14 psi, right? Where is your timing for vacuum and low boost? I don't think I'm reading your chart correctly.
2. I thought t-gap should go down as rpm goes up? Mine starts at 15 at idle then goes to between 5-10 in boost. Yours t-gap seem to increase as rpm goes up.

Tem120

iTrader: (5)

(wrong edit )
sorry didnt read the 100 kpa comment haha

Davin

iTrader: (14)

I would stay away from Steve Kan. His tunes are way too agressive and several engines by him and blown. When he first came about, he was good, but slowly his attention to detail has faltered.

In my opinion, the best tuner is Shane Tecklenburg who works with MoTeC, but not for MoTeC. He has a lot of attention to detail and it’s a shame I never really got to fully utilize him for my 2 rotor build. But since I’m now slowly going 3 rotor, I will use him when everything is said and done. With that said, he also does remote tuning, so he is able to tune while in California and your car still in Texas. Read below what Paul Yaw wrote about him.

Injector Dynamics

Tem120

iTrader: (5)

the closer the gap the more torque / power the car will make but also more chance of (BOOM) , you may be running less split , BUT he is probably running more leading timing , so in order to keep it safe he sacrificed split

if you reduce split you generally have to retard leading timing or risk

Neutron

iTrader: (10)

If you're in AZ Tony at UMS is a great tuner and has done quite a few rotary powered cars and has never damaged one. My car drives great under any condition and I'm making over 605whp from a 2 rotor. I know he has used a Microtech before and was not a fan but does have experience with it.

stickmantijuana

iTrader: (1)

UMS was my first choice until I heard about rx7 that blew up on the way home from the dyno and another one in Flagstaff that needed to get a retune by Kan. These were all within the past 1-2 years...

Neutron

iTrader: (10)

Unfortunately there are lots of reasons why a car could be damaged after a tune that are not tune related. I would also guess any speed density car that was tuned at a much lower elevation would have to be retuned when going to a much higher elevation.

Not saying there was nothing tune related with these cars but this very thread says Kanye is known for blowing engines. People will always find someone else to blame when there build is suspect especially a tuner. Just take some of these things with a grain of salt. I can honestly say from my experience he know what he is doing. It's honestly not rocket science.

I do know he is honest to a fault. I Would call explain what your set up is and voice your concerns with what you heard. You will get the other side of the story good or bad I promise you.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

there's more to go wrong with a 3 rotor versus a 2 rotor, and even a 2 rotor will give you grief before you know it.

the biggest thing to be sure about is ignition timing, you might consider marking the pulley for all 3 firing sequences on the pulley to verify leading and trailing timing on all 3 chambers.

altitude is also a major contributor as mentioned but generally not one i notice when tuning at sea level for cars that travel up. i initially tuned my car at 100ft and then moved to 2300ft and required no major compensation, while intermittently travelling to 4k ft from time to time. i've seen plenty of cars tuned at higher elevations that didn't survive at lower altitudes. this seems counter intuitive to me but that was my observation.

there is also ambient conditions to consider which result in boost pressure changes throughout the year. if your car is tuned safely to 12psi in summer yet it is seeing 15psi mid winter, it may not be safe any longer. this is why tuning conservatively is necessary for longevity, and also using safeguards(cough*boost cut*cough).


you can tune as a novice but you should start naturally aspirated with the turbo vented, then move up a few psi at a time while using conservative timing maps. the latter is the tricky part, since most setups won't allow you to realistically run less than 7psi even with a large wastegate with a soft spring, although it is rather difficult to blow an engine at sub 10psi figures it is still possible if there is a fault in the car somewhere such as ignition timing(EGTs) or fuel volume(AFRs).

i simply don't recommend learning on a 3 rotor though, the most damaging knock is the most difficult to notice. add in the cost factor of the engine and you could be into it thousands upon thousands of dollars through trial and error. if it's an early code A+B block, you could completely trash it via breaking the thick iron. in fact, with your power goals you better hope it is neither of those codes.


your better alternative would be to find someone in the east or south that can tune it, there are competent tuners in the florida and eastern states. no offense to steve but he isn't the only tuner out there and even still i find myself cleaning up his maps from time to time, for the price they should be all around functional. more than a few people have complained about low speed drivability/poor economy. understandably the fine tuning aspect should be done on the street and this takes a little more time.

stickmantijuana

iTrader: (1)

Neutron, I just heard more bad things about UMS than good things. When I talked to them on the phone, they were indeed honest and told me they tuned Microtech only a couple times, hated it, therefore will charge by the hour, couldn't tell me how much time they will need, but told me it may take a very long time because they aren't familiar with the software. They also never tuned 3 rotor in the past. I am just not willing to give them or anyone an empty check to learn how to tune 3 rotor with Microtech. That's just a part of the reason. Anyhow, as for Kan, for every 1 bad story, I read 5 good stories. He also has tuned many 3 rotors in the past, and many of them were with Microtech. I never see them complaining. I'm just playing statistics. but more importantly, where are you located?? Few of us go driving in canyons every once in awhile, you should join us.

RotaryEvolution, I'm close to LV. Do you have much experience tuning 3 rotor with Microtech? PM'd!

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

not that particular combination no, but microtech used to be one of my preferred choices due to its simplicity. though i have moved away from them the majority of my tuning has still been on microtech ECUs. tuned an old MT8x last week, with its antique inability to connect to a laptop...

dradon03

iTrader: (2)

If he doesn't know about the nice split function easily found in the microtech it won't be good.

Why not just ship your car to Kilo if he had done a good job thus far?

Steve is a creature of motivation like anyone when he is motivated he does very good work .

500 rwhp is pretty conservative on a 20b.

stickmantijuana

iTrader: (1)

I still would consider shipping to Kilo except he's on the other side of the country. I personally consider Kilo and Kan equally capable. Kan is 1400 miles away. Kilo is over 2000 miles away.

500whp is good enough for now. I still have stock rear diff. When I break 2 more FD transmissions I've been stockpiling, I'll swap to T56 and cobra rear diff then go up in power.