IronMdnX

iTrader: (1)

As for T-56 shifter positioning , Different tail housing give different locations. the viper's is farther forward and the mustangs are somewhere in between. The Furthest back is GTO with its offset shifter. SO there are many options.

wanklin

iTrader: (2)

Do you know the dimensions for the GTO by chance?

Here's a good pic from THIS THREAD showing the T56 and FD trabs side-by-side to give you guys an idea of what we are dealing with.

IronMdnX

iTrader: (1)

GTO is basicly a LS1 with an offset shifter.

the pic is a retrofit for a 2005+ mustang, it uses the GTO shifter setup

IronMdnX

iTrader: (1)

The pic is a LT1 t-56 . The LS1 shifter is about 1" further back.

wanklin

iTrader: (2)

Yeah good call, you can tell it's an LT1 by the bellhousing.

What I'm looking for now are measurements for the FD trans and I'm also interested in measurements for that mustang trans with the GTO tail. Where did you get that pic above? Perhaps its creator could be of some assistance to us....

wanklin

iTrader: (2)

Ok, based on some light research, it appears that the GTO tail housing relocates the shifter back an additional (estimated) 4.25" from the F-body mark, which is right about where we want to be for the 13B. The 20Bs on the other hand will likely want to use a shorter variation of some sort, like a 4.6 trans.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

just spoke w Craig at Liberty Gear.....

they do over 100 custom input shafts a year.

you send them your T56 input shaft, an FD input shaft. they make out of 300 M a new input shaft up to where it meets the gear (approx). they weld them together and you pay them $350.

they have been doing them for years and have had exactly one fail. most are for 900+ hp apps and drag racing.

if i break one on my street/track car i will consider it an achievement.

so that's good news IMO. fairly reasonable and we can run the fd clutch options.

howard

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

just spoke w Amber at T56rebuilds.com. houston tx.

i linked them from the excellent website LS1tech.com.... (lots of nice customer comments about them on ls1tech)

i spent 30 minutes w her and probably will buy my trans from them... she highly recommends the GTO box. lots o syncros etc etc. and it has the gears (2.97-2.07-1.43-1-.80-.62.) i want.

they adapt the F body rear tailshaft so the shifter is not offset.

all newly built approx $2250.

btw, she cautioned re the 93 t56... (i asked about it because it has the ratios i want) if you are running more than 350 rwhp it is just a question whether the input shaft or the output shaft goes first according to her.

while it was just my first contact my intuition is that Amber knows her stuff and that T56rebuilds just might be a place to seriously check out.

i also like the fact they close the shop early on fridays and go racing. check out the website.


howard

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Howard, before making your final decision, I'd make sure you peruse the upgrades available here: http://ddperformance.com/t56_partsupgrades.htm The twin (or triple, I still can't remember) carbon fiber synchros available on the Z06 are a very important upgrade, as is the steel shift fork and upgraded shaft (but I think you got that last one covered already).

Also, when you say "so the shifter is not offset," do you mean that the position of the shifter when using the f-body rear tailshaft is in the same location as the shifter on the FD tranny? Cuz that's the one thing we don't have; shifter locations in relation to the OEM position. I'd be curious if THAT can be moved up 6" forward for the 20B guys...

~Ramy

~Ramy

IronMdnX

iTrader: (1)

From what I've gathered a GTO tranny with GTO shifter is about the same location as the FD. For the Few 20B guys that moved their motors back, the viper or mustang tailhousing would be about 5-5.5" forward than the FD setup.

Has anybody measured a FD auto bellhousing yet?
Or how much of a reality is a custom built bellhousing as mentioned back in the thread.

IronMdnX

iTrader: (1)

Here is another source for a built tranny.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T56-T...spagenameZWD1V

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Nice. Any way we can confirm this for sure? Here's my thinking (not sure if it's right...).

According to the diagram below, from the end of the tranny to the shifter (distance A) is 636.1 mm for the Viper trans, and 671.5 for the Mustang trans.

From this thread: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/fd-trans-dimensions-623394/ (thanks btw Rob ), the same distances on the FD trans are:

A=836.6
B=157.2
C=782.6 (This I measured to the center of the forward bolts on the shifter)
D=881.1

Putting them together:

Viper trans: 836.6 mm (FD shifter location) - 636.1 mm (Viper shifter location) = 200.5 mm (7.89") forward

Mustang trans: 836.6 mm (FD shifter location) - 671.1 mm (Mustang shifter location) = 165.5 mm (6.52") forward

So, assuming the 20B is moved back 6", the Mustang trans would seem to be the best fit, unless the custom bellhousing (mentioned below) is a bit deeper... about 1.5" or so.

Are my measurements and my premise correct? I'm not too good w/ this stuff...



I think 3 of us are very serious about getting it done... (myself included obviously).

IronMdnX

iTrader: (1)

You will need to also figure in the different bellhousing depts and input shaft lengths. IE the LS1 input is 1" longer than the Mustang's but the bell housings are only 5mm different.
and on some vehicles the input shaft sticks out past the face of bellhousings. FD <1/8" , ls1 1/2", Viper is more.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i will have a complete auto bellhousing/starter setup in a week and will provide the relevant info.

howard

IronMdnX

iTrader: (1)

Here are a few dimentional photos of the reto t-56





Using one of these retros puts the shifter at approx 28.125" unsing the 20b auto bellhousing. but they are only a single cone synchro setup, as with Camaro & Viper t-56's

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Well, I won't worry too much about the bellhousing or input shaft, as we have the ability of having a custom input (Howard's post) and custom bellhousing made (Wanklin's post). So in that sense, we can get those issues taken care of once the dimensions of the T-56 are known, and it's determined we can place the shifter in the correct location.

IronMdnX

iTrader: (1)

Great.

wanklin

iTrader: (2)

I am still willing to go forward with this bellhousing idea. Still doing research but will update w/ more later:

This is geared towards Howard since he seems like he's ready to move on this:
Howard FYI, if you are set on going the adapter plate route, I talked to D&D about the tranny that would fit your requirements and they quoted me $3,800 for a built trans including a custom input shaft and adapter plate. The catch is that you will need to make this happen within the next 2 weeks, after which point they are going to stop taking custom orders until Nov-Dec 07.

FYI, The GTO trans isn't going to but it unless you upgrade to triple cone synchros throughout. I'm not sure about the 06+s but I know that the 05s only had triple cone synchros in 1st and 2nd and the rest where double, unlike the vette trans which had all triples. You will also want to upgrade these to carbon along with all of the other strength mods.

For those thinking about the GTO shifter, don't do it. It is not a good idea from what I have been reading because the shifter feels sloppy; however, there are some nice kits out there that are made for the GTO shift pocket which should put the shifter right about where it needs to be for the 13B. and FYI - the GTO shifter is offset by 3", not 4.5."

The GMM ripshift is a popular aftermarket shifter for this application which features a bent arm mounted to the stock location to eliminate the linkage a provide a more solid feel. The price for this kit is about $300.

left: GMM Ripshift Right: Stock GTO shifter (notice linkage)



McLeod Tech has both a shifter to move the stick up to 4.1" and also a kit to utilize the forward cover.

Summitracing carries the Shifter for $296+ McLeod #82-320-29408 (i think?) and the forward location kit is # 82-1001, but not listed in Summit yet..
I was able to get part of the install manual on the Kit. You have to take apart the trans some.. enought to get the shifter rail out and replace one of the shifter parts with one that they supply (has a added a socket to the part). Must drill, pin and do some cutting (not sure what for yet)

You cannot simply bolt an F-body shifter onto a GTO trans incase you are wondering.

More info about shifter relocations:
The front inspection cover is 8" forward of the F-body shift pocket center to center BTW) Keisler has a kit that they will sell you for $250, or they'll install for $650 to include part and labor.


Most common problems w/ stock T56s:

1. Bent 3/4 shift fork which screws up the cheaply made 3/4 stamped steel key synchronizer.
2. Leaking tranny that has been run extensively with low fluid can damage bearings causing whine.
3. Stuck in gear (as a result of #1).
4. Not directly a tranny problem, but the clutch hydraulics are sometimes defective making it difficult or impossible to get into gear.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

a clutch option perhaps:

assuming you relocate the starter along the lines of the auto bellhousing...

the clutch mechanism, i believe, cannot be refixtured to the stock spot as it would interfere w the starter... i say i think, i will know this by next week.

assuming this is the case one option would be to talk exedy into doing a bit of mixing their components.

the FD double disc exedy is a 200 mm disc. (single is 225).

exedy makes a double 200 mm for the supra that is a push type. it also has the same 2205 clamping pressure. it has a 32 mm input shaft v the fd's weaker 26.4 mm input shaft.

you could swap the supra discs in along w the push cover and it would bolt up to the exedy FD flywheel. you could then probably use the OEM hydraulic throw out bearing actuator which is a neat self contained package.

i should talk to exedy today on this...


howard coleman

wanklin

iTrader: (2)

Ahh, interesting idea Howard. I'm wondering how the range of motion will pan out, or perhaps you are talking about using the Supra cylinder? Again, you will probably need a custom PB.

In the case of a custom BH, we could put the stater wherever we wanted. I'm wondering if the stock manual starter mounting taps could be used, only in reverse. I'd need to take a look.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

bellhousing:

after taking a closer look at the auto trans BH i conclude it will not work for me. the problem is that, while it relocates the starter in a position that will not interfere w the T56, it has way too much volume to accomodate the torque convertor.

i run two 3 inch downpipes and w the manual BH they fit just fine. the auto BH makes the tunnel/BH space too small.

my present plan (always subject to change) is to acquire an auto trans starter and starter bracket and adapt it to the manual trans.

i believe we will not be able to use a pull clutch because the slave cylinder will run into the widebody transcase. that's not a problem as i prefer the hydraulic/around the input shaft push setup.

i talked to my old clutch co (QuarterMaster) yesterday... they have rotary flywheels and double disc and a clutch hydraulic actuator that can use a chevy spline (so maybe we wouldn't need a custom input shaft). it is not a clutch package that you can slip.... other than that it would work fine and the whole deal is around $1100 retail. it is a "maybe." they are good people and are in nearby illinois. i raced w their stuff for lots of years. i had no problem w my Exedy Hyper Single and it really didn't slip. clamp pressure 2900 lbs v the Hyper Single at 2655 so not much diff as to pedal pressure. my exedy was zero problem from the pedal pressure standpoint. the QM holds over 700 ft pounds of torque.

i plan to talk to carbonetic today. exedy has some new BS "we'll get back to you" deal now so i am waiting. i did email the head tech guy who i know... so we will see.

stay tuned,

howard coleman

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

did some additional measuring today. perhaps some of this is in the earlier part of the thread but i did come up w some interesting conclusions:

the input shaft may work w almost no modding.

it is one inch ( all measurements here are close, not guaranteed) longer than the fd input shaft. the pilot bearing diameter of my input shaft is .593. the T56 i measured was .599. that's real close.

the center of the splines from the end of the input shaft on the fd is 2.06. the T56 is 2.22. the t56 spline length is an inch longer. looking good.

what this all means to me is i space the t56 rearward one inch using the adapter plate i will make. use a chevy, or whatever the t56 clutch disc is and there is no need to slice and dice the t56 input shaft. other than maybe to turn the pilot bearing diameter a tad.

wow

at the moment the Quartermaster clutch setup makes this happen. they have a rotary flywheel that bolts up to their 7.25 inch double disc clutchpak.

overall length of the fd trans is 28.5 v 26.5 for the late model camaro t56 i measured. (this is ex bellhousing).

shifter location is 26.75 from the front (x-BH) on the fd and 23.75 on the t56.

width of the gearcases is fd 6.75 and 13.5 t56.

height from the centerline of the main shaft is 3.7 fd and 6 t56. i am going to check for vertical tunnel clearance tomorrow. the wifey's fd has the motor in it...

overall looking prospective.

i meet w a fab guy re the bellhousing adapter plate and clutch monday afternoon.

BTW, i have started an overall powertrain upgrade in the Auxiliary Injection section. i plan to detail the installs in that thread.

howard coleman

paul_3rdgen

iTrader: (6)

Wow, from your initiall measuements it's looking good! Good luck, and hope it takes less modification then you originally thought it would. The adapter plate shouldn't be to hard to make.

wanklin

iTrader: (2)

Good stuff howard. I would think it'd be easier/safer to turn the input shaft that to turn the inner pilot bearing sleeve. Also, I would be hesitant to use the GM cylinder unless you absolutely have to, since that is the number one complaint about the tremec T56. Most old schoolers prefer the older Borg warner t56 because it uses a pivoting fork like we have on our FDs. Either way, I'm sure you'll figure out a clever solution. Best of luck and keep us updated with your progress. I look forward to seeing some pictures of your car. It sounds like you are going to be driving one of the most track-worthy FDs around.

best,
Robert

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"my present plan (always subject to change) is to acquire an auto trans starter and starter bracket and adapt it to the manual trans."


since i posted "always subject to change".... here's how it is actually going to get done.

use stock FD manual bellhousing
make spacer plate approx 4 inches plus a hair. this spaces the trans back and allows the use of the stock starter and of course stock clutch package.

the key in doing it this way is you have to add approx 3. something inches to the T56 input shaft. (call Liberty, send them an FD and T56 inputshaft and $350)

i am going to use an input shaft of the approx dia of the T56... lots stronger and i plan to use a Quartermaster double disc clutch package, QM flywheel and a QM internal throw out bearing actuator. i plan to visit QM in Illinois tomorrow.

G Force sells a similar adapter plate for $550.

on another note i checked gear ratios and here's what i want:

2.66-1.78-1.3-1-.80-.62. shifting at 7000 here's what you get:

2nd 4684-3rd 5112-4th 5384-5th 5600-6th 5245.

stock fd is:

2nd-4063-3rd-4816-4th-5035-5th-5740... (that's my .82 5th not your stock 5th)

ths ZO6/GTO is

2nd-4878-3rd-4835-4th-4895-5th-5600-6th 5425 you can see that sucks.

back at you,

howard coleman