T56 tranny to FD
02-19-07, 10:20 PM
#177
OK, WOW, that took me forever to get through.
I am interested in all of this as well for my 20b swap. I also happen to have an 8.8 setup collecting dust awaiting the rest of the car
So, for those looking at custom bellhousings etc, I'll throw my name in the hat as well. Great research being done here.
Too bad about the need to order a T56 from DD within two weeks or wait till December.... I guess I could pull the trigger that quickly if it was really the right answer. Anyone else thinking in those terms?
-Chris
I am interested in all of this as well for my 20b swap. I also happen to have an 8.8 setup collecting dust awaiting the rest of the car
So, for those looking at custom bellhousings etc, I'll throw my name in the hat as well. Great research being done here.Too bad about the need to order a T56 from DD within two weeks or wait till December.... I guess I could pull the trigger that quickly if it was really the right answer. Anyone else thinking in those terms?
-Chris
02-19-07, 10:26 PM
#179
Only prob I see w/ Howard's is that the adapter plate is HUGE. 4" is REALLY thick. The one I spoke to D&D and G-Force about was about 1" thick IIRC. But I don't think that was keeping an FD clutch/flywheel setup.
Again, the depth of the adapter plate is *everything* for 20B guys who would be moving the tranny back.
Again, the depth of the adapter plate is *everything* for 20B guys who would be moving the tranny back.
02-19-07, 10:38 PM
#180
Yeah, everyone pretty much uses the same generic plate. A happy middle ground will need to be found. Depth is a piece of cake, it'll just have to come down to shifter positioning and available configurations. I'm talking more about the starter arrangement and mounting points than anything.
He's also raising good insight about input shaft thickness, perhaps the stock clutch/hydraulic setup should be abanandoned for a thicker input shaft?
He's also raising good insight about input shaft thickness, perhaps the stock clutch/hydraulic setup should be abanandoned for a thicker input shaft?
02-19-07, 10:54 PM
#181
Well Howard's very intent on keeping the stock clutch/hydraulic setup. My guess is b/c he has a good relationship w/ his suppliers, and can get those parts for little cost. I'm not so hung up on using stock, as I'm going w/ Tilton anyway, and they'll make anything for me, the way I want. That way I don't have to compromise, regardless of what I end up going with.
02-19-07, 11:15 PM
#182
You may have missed his post above:
"i am going to use an input shaft of the approx dia of the T56... lots stronger and i plan to use a Quartermaster double disc clutch package, QM flywheel and a QM internal throw out bearing actuator. i plan to visit QM in Illinois tomorrow."
- Howard C
"i am going to use an input shaft of the approx dia of the T56... lots stronger and i plan to use a Quartermaster double disc clutch package, QM flywheel and a QM internal throw out bearing actuator. i plan to visit QM in Illinois tomorrow."
- Howard C
02-19-07, 11:17 PM
#183
Oh I read it Rob. I think you missed some of it though...
Originally Posted by howard coleman
use stock FD manual bellhousing
make spacer plate approx 4 inches plus a hair. this spaces the trans back and allows the use of the stock starter and of course stock clutch package.
make spacer plate approx 4 inches plus a hair. this spaces the trans back and allows the use of the stock starter and of course stock clutch package.
runs and hides 
02-20-07, 07:21 AM
#187
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
some open-ended comments here....
with the setup where it is at the moment you can use whatever you wish clutchwise. you simply tell Liberty that you want to end up w an FD clutch package and they will make your input shaft FD dimension. the only part of the bellhousing that won't be normal is the rear facing. it will be spaced back to accomodate the stock FD starter.
a consideration of course is that the input shaft will be around 3-4 inches longer than the stock FD shaft and therefore will not be quite as sturdy. that favors using the thicker T56 type input shaft. my choice w QM clutch hardware.
i am giving a last consideration to using the C5 transaxle package. shortening the torque tube looks easy. just replace it w a conventional type driveshaft within the torque tube and you sidestep attempting to re-balance the OEM shaft.
the primary negative is the size of the unit in relation to the FD tunnel in the package compartment area. maybe you cap it off at the face of the trans and put a yoke on the input shaft and run an open driveshaft. then cradle the nose of the unit. that way you could significantly shrink the width around where the torque tube enters the transmission which is the widest point.
the transaxle weighs 193 pounds which is around 30 more than the T56 and the Fd rear end. of course the weight is in the best place on the chassis.
you'd have to swap gears as the C5 manual came w a 3.42. it does have the right trans ratios. T56 Rebuilds is noodling on it currently for me.
howard
with the setup where it is at the moment you can use whatever you wish clutchwise. you simply tell Liberty that you want to end up w an FD clutch package and they will make your input shaft FD dimension. the only part of the bellhousing that won't be normal is the rear facing. it will be spaced back to accomodate the stock FD starter.
a consideration of course is that the input shaft will be around 3-4 inches longer than the stock FD shaft and therefore will not be quite as sturdy. that favors using the thicker T56 type input shaft. my choice w QM clutch hardware.
i am giving a last consideration to using the C5 transaxle package. shortening the torque tube looks easy. just replace it w a conventional type driveshaft within the torque tube and you sidestep attempting to re-balance the OEM shaft.
the primary negative is the size of the unit in relation to the FD tunnel in the package compartment area. maybe you cap it off at the face of the trans and put a yoke on the input shaft and run an open driveshaft. then cradle the nose of the unit. that way you could significantly shrink the width around where the torque tube enters the transmission which is the widest point.
the transaxle weighs 193 pounds which is around 30 more than the T56 and the Fd rear end. of course the weight is in the best place on the chassis.
you'd have to swap gears as the C5 manual came w a 3.42. it does have the right trans ratios. T56 Rebuilds is noodling on it currently for me.
howard
02-20-07, 08:37 AM
#188
If you ditch the torque tube you are going to need to build a brace to support the front end on the transaxle. To be honest, that sounds like the ideal setup in my mind, that is, assuming that you can make it fit and mount it properly. Ofcourse there's also the issue of shifting linkage to deal with as well.
Keep it coming....
Keep it coming....
02-20-07, 12:04 PM
#189
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
cross the transaxle idea, again, off my list. after some more realistic measuring, even after taking off the endcap on the trans the unit runs into the double walled rib in the tunnel. i am not into compromising the chassis. so spacing the trans back 4 inches looks more and more like the setup.
one interesting item is T56 rebuilds is, as i write, disassembling a 2007 C6 ZO6 trans. it failed w 1200 miles on the dyno making around 1000+ rwhp at the time.
there's lots of talk about what's inside... for instance higher rpm capability. the owner is shifting at 8200 rpm w no problem until he twisted off the input shaft.
T56 rebuilds hopes it will find uprated components in the box it can adapt. i will know tomorrow.
also, we are continuing to look for optimum ratios.
stay tuned.
one interesting item is T56 rebuilds is, as i write, disassembling a 2007 C6 ZO6 trans. it failed w 1200 miles on the dyno making around 1000+ rwhp at the time.
there's lots of talk about what's inside... for instance higher rpm capability. the owner is shifting at 8200 rpm w no problem until he twisted off the input shaft.
T56 rebuilds hopes it will find uprated components in the box it can adapt. i will know tomorrow.
also, we are continuing to look for optimum ratios.
stay tuned.
02-23-07, 05:30 PM
#190
Before anyone makes any final moves, I thought I'd give you guys a head's up on what's going on in this thread: https://www.rx7club.com/20b-forum-95/tranny-618433/#post6676704.
I'm hoping you guys migrate over to that website so we can explore the pros and cons of the T-56 vs. the Getrag, given this new announcement...
~Ramy
Originally Posted by GT1-20b
Announcement:
Getrag W-160 6 speed ...OEM for Supra TT 2Jz adapted to Mazda 20b/ 13b
" TOTALY BOLT ON KIT "
No fab work, no welding, completly BOLT ON. and w/ off the shelf related components.
All CAD, CNC'd & Water Jet.
Adaptor plate, Dedicated Starter, Hardware, Trans Mount, Anular Release TO bearing,
Shifter Tripod, Instructions, Everything !
You supply gearbox
- Pictures and website coming soon !!
GT1-20b
Getrag W-160 6 speed ...OEM for Supra TT 2Jz adapted to Mazda 20b/ 13b
" TOTALY BOLT ON KIT "
No fab work, no welding, completly BOLT ON. and w/ off the shelf related components.
All CAD, CNC'd & Water Jet.
Adaptor plate, Dedicated Starter, Hardware, Trans Mount, Anular Release TO bearing,
Shifter Tripod, Instructions, Everything !
You supply gearbox
- Pictures and website coming soon !!
GT1-20b
~Ramy
02-24-07, 11:44 AM
#191
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
comparative speed at 7500 rpm. 25.85 inch tire. no slip. top speeds of course only theoretical
-------FD-----supra------t56 C5------t56 ZO6/GTO-----supra w 3.13 rear gears
1-----40------36-------------52---------47------------------47
2-----69------59-------------78---------67------------------77
3----100------82------------107--------97-----------------107
4----140------107----------140--------140----------------140
5----194------139----------188--------174----------------181
6---------------176----------278--------224----------------230
observations: supra too short w stock rear gears but looks v good w 3.13.
i am going w the C5 T 56 w 07 shifting guts.
howard coleman
-------FD-----supra------t56 C5------t56 ZO6/GTO-----supra w 3.13 rear gears
1-----40------36-------------52---------47------------------47
2-----69------59-------------78---------67------------------77
3----100------82------------107--------97-----------------107
4----140------107----------140--------140----------------140
5----194------139----------188--------174----------------181
6---------------176----------278--------224----------------230
observations: supra too short w stock rear gears but looks v good w 3.13.
i am going w the C5 T 56 w 07 shifting guts.
howard coleman
02-24-07, 12:54 PM
#194
That's the TR-6060 I believe. Costs about 10k from the factory....
The newer Tremec TR-6060 transmission is rumored to be replacing the Tremec T-56 in the C6 and a number of other vehicles from the Dodge Viper to the Ferrari Maranello. The TR-6060 is used on the new Ford Shelby Mustang GT500, so here’s a review by the guys at Mustang Magazine. Since I’m an auto guy, it doesn’t make much difference for me. But I figure a nicer manual transmission would be attractive to a lot of folks. Maybe check out the GT500 for a preview.
So you might be wondering exactly how a Tremec TR-6060 compares with the T56 you know and love. In short, it’s better in just about every way. It can handle more torque thanks to a move from a 10-spline input shaft to a 26-spline unit. Moreover, the new case is stronger, the countershafts are one-piece units, and the gear faces are wider. All these changes add up to much greater strength, which we’ll all appreciate after we start modding these cars. What we noticed while driving the car, however, was its easy, precise shifting despite the factory shifter.
The prime movers in the better shifting are increased synchronizers on all the gears. Where the Terminator T56 had only two synchros on the 1-2 and 3-4 shifts and single synchros on the remaining gears, the TR-6060 offers triple synchros on the 1-2 and 3-4, and dual synchros on all remaining gears, including Reverse. Plus, the synchronizers have been upgraded from a carbon-particle paper to a sintered-bronze material.
Gt500 Transmission Gears
A larger input shaft, beefier gears, more synchronizers, closer gear ratios, and more make this six-speed one that should become a popular aftermarket upgrade.
So this transmission shifts easier, but it also offers a shorter shift throw. “The synchronizer hubs are much narrower, reducing fore and aft shift travel,” Tremec’s Jim Averill explained. “Additionally, the hub system uses three encapsulated ball-and-coil-spring struts that are much more precise than the old-style hoop-and-stamped strut. This also adds to a smoother fore, aft shift.”
So the TR-6060 is smoother, stronger, and just better than its predecessors. That’s cool, but the better news for those who aren’t buying GT 500s is that Tremec will be rolling a lot of this technology into its aftermarket transmissions, so you’ll be able to put all the good stuff in your Mustang soon.
So you might be wondering exactly how a Tremec TR-6060 compares with the T56 you know and love. In short, it’s better in just about every way. It can handle more torque thanks to a move from a 10-spline input shaft to a 26-spline unit. Moreover, the new case is stronger, the countershafts are one-piece units, and the gear faces are wider. All these changes add up to much greater strength, which we’ll all appreciate after we start modding these cars. What we noticed while driving the car, however, was its easy, precise shifting despite the factory shifter.
The prime movers in the better shifting are increased synchronizers on all the gears. Where the Terminator T56 had only two synchros on the 1-2 and 3-4 shifts and single synchros on the remaining gears, the TR-6060 offers triple synchros on the 1-2 and 3-4, and dual synchros on all remaining gears, including Reverse. Plus, the synchronizers have been upgraded from a carbon-particle paper to a sintered-bronze material.
Gt500 Transmission Gears
A larger input shaft, beefier gears, more synchronizers, closer gear ratios, and more make this six-speed one that should become a popular aftermarket upgrade.
So this transmission shifts easier, but it also offers a shorter shift throw. “The synchronizer hubs are much narrower, reducing fore and aft shift travel,” Tremec’s Jim Averill explained. “Additionally, the hub system uses three encapsulated ball-and-coil-spring struts that are much more precise than the old-style hoop-and-stamped strut. This also adds to a smoother fore, aft shift.”
So the TR-6060 is smoother, stronger, and just better than its predecessors. That’s cool, but the better news for those who aren’t buying GT 500s is that Tremec will be rolling a lot of this technology into its aftermarket transmissions, so you’ll be able to put all the good stuff in your Mustang soon.
Last edited by wanklin; 02-24-07 at 01:00 PM.
02-24-07, 01:24 PM
#195
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
as i mentioned, Amber at T56 Rebuilds told me that they were tearing apart an 07 corvette trans which would be as above. prior to, uh, a malfunction the box was being shifted w "no problems" at 8200 rpm in a 900 hp drag racing corvette application.
she is looking into finding part numbers etc on anything that is an upgrade for the T56. BTW, Amber worked for the top two Viper shops prior to T56 so she up on her viper stuff including anything new.
if you go to LS1tech.com, chassis, suspension, then manual transmission you will see lots of posts under the name Ls1Joe on the T56. generally it is Amber doing the posting. all from T56 Rebuilds... they are racers
hc
she is looking into finding part numbers etc on anything that is an upgrade for the T56. BTW, Amber worked for the top two Viper shops prior to T56 so she up on her viper stuff including anything new.
if you go to LS1tech.com, chassis, suspension, then manual transmission you will see lots of posts under the name Ls1Joe on the T56. generally it is Amber doing the posting. all from T56 Rebuilds... they are racers
hc
02-24-07, 02:20 PM
#196
Originally Posted by wanklin
Support for the T56 and "built" pricing make it the winner in my book. Like everything else, the Getrag is not bullet proof in stock trim.... T56 makes more sense to me.
I have a breakdown of all of the 07 improvements somewhere....
Some of the salient strongpoints of the Getrag are it's shorter overall length, which means when you push the motor back, you won't interfere w/ the exhaust path. Plus the shifter sits in a tripod base separate from the main case - although it looks like the TR-6060 also has a separate shifter tripod as well, which means you can relocate the shifter to wherever you'd like. Yummy
But again, $10K? DAYUMN. Is there wholesale pricing on that tranny anywhere? lolOne more...gotta see how much larger the Getrag bellhousing is (if it can clear the gas pedal w/ the motor moved back, b/c w/ the T-56, it's a very tight fit). Other than that, honestly, I'd say it would be a down-to-the-wire cost issue, b/c each setup has it's associated costs in getting the tranny to bolt up and fit 100%...
~Ramy
02-24-07, 10:28 PM
#198
Originally Posted by wanklin
That's interesting. I'll have to take your word for it as I have only done a modest amount of research on the Getrag. It's certainly worth looking into at any rate.
How is the shifting on the Getrag compared to the T56?
But I've never heard of complaints re: the Getrag, vs. say the "truck-like" shifting feeling I heard of re: the T-56s (although that issue is addressed in built T-56s).
02-28-07, 06:56 AM
#200
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
from my notes the trans is approx 13.5 inches wide using the outside of the mounting tabs at the bellhousing. the gearcase is approx 2.625 inches wider on each side from the longitudinal centerline than the FD box.
i will be doing a modded T56. it will have any 07 goodies that will promote high rpm shifting. triple cone synchs on 1-4. etc.
i finish removing my rear subframe today and will engineer an upper dif brace somewhat similar to Paul's.
howard coleman
howard coleman
i will be doing a modded T56. it will have any 07 goodies that will promote high rpm shifting. triple cone synchs on 1-4. etc.
i finish removing my rear subframe today and will engineer an upper dif brace somewhat similar to Paul's.
howard coleman
howard coleman