Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

of course i could run the TKO and just throw another rear gear in the car for more top end events.... 3.55 or thereabouts. that would be easy w the ford 8.8 rear. maybe that's the answer.

hc

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Yea sorry about that Howard...but I've given this a LOT of thought, and there's a reason why I finally am set on a T-56 (unless something better comes along). I've been through 'em all... Guru, G-Force, Jerico, Holinger, Liberty, Hewlett, Greddy/Trust, HKS, Quaife, etc etc. The T-56 simply seems to be *the* best setup all around...

Re: the Ford 8.8" rear, I'm very seriously considering that route as well, but I'm not so ready to try retrofitting a torque tube or custom PPF into the setup, simply b/c I'm unclear as to it's merits. Ie, what signficant benefit will it yield, vs ditching a torque tube/PPF completely, and simply fabbing independent mounts for the tranny, along w/ some bracing if necessary?

~Ramy

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

w.r.t. the synchros, can you add a touch of limited slip additive to get them gripping better for high RPM shifts?

Dave

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i am heading over to my FC-ls1-T56 friend's shop and i am taking my FD trans.... he has a spare T56 sitting around so we will do a bit of measuring.

i am going to call Exedy monday morn to see if i can talk them into making some FD/T56 clutch discs.

howard

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Howard,

The Mustang case is closest to the FD trans dimensionally. Also, Exedy's chief engineer told me they aren't really interested in making custom spline clutches, and IF they were, I'd be looking at about a year until they're ready, since their project development division has its hands full.

Now if you wanted to go w/ Tilton, you'd be good to go, b/c they can do *anything*

~Ramy

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i only have a minute but i did get comparative dimensions i will share later. much of it looks good but as Ray observed the starter may be the problem at least w the camaro t56 we measured. i know there was a picture earlier in the thread of it handled and i plan to get there one way or the other..

hc

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Howard, if you (and/or anyone else) are def. going this route, I'd like to look into getting a custom bellhousing made. No modification necessary, no adapter plates, etc. Interested? Maybe we can use the guys Wanklin posted about...

wptrx7

Do I hear another group buy?

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

If I'm not mistaken, Jim gave Alex (TT_Rex_7) his templates and welding jig, so we'd prob have to contact Alex about this, as I don't think Jim is making them anymore.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

again, relating to the custom bellhousing... due to the girth of the front of the t56 (camaro) i saw, the starter would run into the drivers-low side of the box.

it has been posted that a 20b automatic bellhousing positions the starter on the front side of the FW solving the problem but it has an incorrect depth.

so the custom bellhousing would have to be neatly engineered to fix the starter problem.

i do apologise for barging in to this thread and being way behind the curve at the moment but as many fd's adopt methanol injection and can run 20+ psi on pump gas powertrain issues will be job one.

hc

IronMdnX

iTrader: (1)

Does anybody have access to a FD auto bellhousing. It would be interesting to see if it is the same debth as the 20b's.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

IronMdnX, it's not. Off the top of my head, the FD bellhousing is about 6" deep, while the 20B bellhousing is about 8" deep. That's a CONSIDERABLE difference for those who are running 20Bs and will be pushing the motor back, as that means the tranny is going to be yet another 2" rearward, making it even harder to get the shifter into the stock location...

wptrx7

Who said Jim had to do the group buy? And no, you were not mistaken, Jim did give him the jig.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

My bad...I wasn't sure if you were aware of that, as Jim's been on this thread, but not Alex.

IronMdnX

iTrader: (1)

I have a 20b auto bellhousing. It is 6.5" deep. If the FD auto bellhousing is 6" it would be perfect for a LS1 t-56 with the adaptor plate.

IronMdnX

iTrader: (1)

I've had a couple PM's about the starter position for an auto. Here is a couple pics

wanklin

iTrader: (2)

Sorry guys, I was away for the weekend as usual. Thanks for the feedback.

I'll try to touch on your posts:

The Bell housing will be cast aluminum and custom designed for our application. IOW, we can make it however we see fit. Basically, we need to figure out exactly what we want and I can make it happen. Alternative starter positioning should be no sweat, same with the hydraulic mounting points. No adapters, no plates - I'm talking about a custom tailored bolt-on arrangment.

We'll want to think more about clutch options.... If you were to go with a custom splined clutch you would need a pilot bearing to match. I'm assuming that Tilton could provide this?

As for the D&D and Keisler "rivalry," They both sell t56s so they have no reason to blow smoke up our asses. Keisler will build you a custom t56 or TKO, but they do not recommend the T56 for their high HP customers. Keep in mind that we're talking about blown big blocks and such.

regarding price. The 2,200 price tag included the custom made tail housing made specifically for our application. They will sell you a generic TKO600 off the shelf for around $1,850.00 I'm sure.

I will get more info on the RPM rating. Just keep in mind that the TKO is not a retro box. It's a modern trans that is used on high dollar classics and high performance cars. I will also do some inquiring on the gears. And just FYI, Keisler is not the first company to recommend the TKO to me. I've briefly looked into this before as well.

Please shoot me that bushings PM again if you don't mind Ramy, I never got it.

Keep in mind that I am not biased either way. I see the TKO as a more cost-effective and definitely more stout option off the shelf; however, I do think a T56 may be a good solution as well and those who are going for extreme levels of performance can pay the piper for designer internals.

Let's not make this a T56 vs. TKO debate. Instead, let's keep out minds open, collect all of the information that we can (including prices, gear options etc.) and make an informed decision. It's not about being right or wrong, it's about doing what makes the most sense.

A rear end with plenty of gearing options would make sense if the trans gears became a limiting factor. I will inquire and find out what gearing options are out there for the TKO.

I'm sure I missed something....

wanklin

iTrader: (2)

iii

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

That's what I'm talkin about

Tilton can and will make *anything* you need, regardless of the clearance (or lack thereof) that you have. Seriously.

So are the guys who deal w/ D&D

Plz do...that's *very* important. Realistically, we need it to handle 9,000 rpm to be safe.

Hey if they made it in a 6-speed configuration, I'd be ALL over it. But in all honesty, I'm simply not willing to end w/ a 140mph top speed, no matter HOW strong the tranny is.

Done.

The price difference is considerable of course. $1.8K vs. $3.1K (or $2K vs $4K for a fully built T-56). Of course everyone will make their decision based on different criterion; for me price is last on the list, and not cuz I have an unlimited budget; it's b/c I don't wanna spend a PENNY in something that isn't exactly what I want/need, ya know? I want a 6-gear set that's good for about 700 ft lbs of torque, that I can fit into the car.

I'm actually in favor of the debate, but not to see who's right or wrong; rather, the best way to come to a decision (IMO) is to compare and contrast. I won't be able to see where one falls short and the other shines w/o a nice (friendly) debate, ya know?

Oh and thanks for the info and research Rob

~Ramy

wanklin

iTrader: (2)

OK. Did a bit of digging and talking to Chris and as of now it looks like the TKO is a no-go for the rotary because it shifts like shi- after 6k RPM unless you get it faced and then it's worthless for the street. I will make some more calls to confirm this, but what this means for the time being is that the T56 is the most logical choice for this application. I have done only a modest amount of searching and found new built 800hp t56s available for under 3k and 900-1200hp varieties are available.

Choice to make: (a)Custom input shaft or (b) a custom clutch/pilot to work with an off-the shelf GM shaft for the T56.

two things to think about: If we go with the larger (compared to RX7 trans) GM input shaft the setup will likely be stronger, but this will require a custom clutch and pilot bearing, and we'll have to see how this will mesh with the clutch mechanisms. Not to mention that an off the shelf part will dictate bell housing dimensions.

If a custom RX-7 spec input shaft is made, it may be weaker, but it will be pop-n-swap and allow the use of a various assortment of clutches.

I think a strength analysis is in order to determine whether the thicker GM shaft, causing clutch complications, makes sense. If the Mazda input shaft can do the job, it may be the best bet to replicate it. Thoughts on this?

We also need to figure out exactly what we want to do with the bellhousing. Please feel free to post pictures, measurements and ideas. We need to make this setup 20B friendly so we're going to need to base this custom bellhousing off of the 20B, yet make it compatible with the 13s.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Rob, yea that's what I got from Chris as well.

Re: the 20B and FD thing, 3rd gen bellhousing fits to both setups (I think it's like one bolt that doesn't fit if you use the FD bellhousing on a 20B). So for all intensive purposes, lets see what can be done using either the FD bellhousing or a custom bellhousing based upon the FD one. The starter location is an issue I have off the bat. As for the input shaft, I'm fairly certain D&D can make a custom 300M input shaft for us that'll not only make life easier, but will be very strong. They're all about custom stuff. Wutcha think? Plus, I think that's the nicer way to do it, b/c a lot of ppl wanna retain the ability to use FD clutches and what not. Not everyone wants a Tilton clutch

~Ramy

wanklin

iTrader: (2)

Ramy, I think we're 100% on the same page. On the bellhousing I think I can use an auto 20B bellhousing as a prototype, and perhaps we can get a 20 and 13b rear iron layout and have the bellhousing casted to accommodate both, assuming that the differing bolt holes of the two do not partially overlap.

What I would ideally like is to bring a 13brew, 20b and ls1 bell to my designer and go from there. The basic goal will be to reposition the starter, maintain stock clutch function and the smallest diameter possible, while keeping structural integrity as the #1 priority.

How are you 20B guys doing on shifter positioning with the stock trans? IOW, how much farther back does the 20B sit? Ofcourse most 20B swaps are unique, but I'm trying to get a feel for bell housing length.

Stock clutch all the way.... ;o)

Let's not get stuck on D&D just yet. We should see who else is out there ;o) Input shaft should be cake I agree. This is doable, we just need to be willing to put our money where our mouths are. Designing and casting this BH will not be cheap, but like I said. I can make it happen if this is something that the community really wants.

cheers.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Sounds good

Sounds like a good starting point.

Most ppl that do push the motor back end up pushing it back 6", and use the secondary access plate on the stock tranny (which is 6" forward of the primary one) to pull the shifter through. As such, the shifter stays in the stock location. The challenge arises in that the T-56 isn't the stock tranny, and while it does have a secondary access plate in front of the primary spot, I don't know how much farther ahead it is, nor do I know how deep the bellhousing we're postulating we have custom made is, so there are quite a few dimensions we'd have to keep in mind in order to maintain the stock shifter location.

Fine by me. Tilton can make 'em in the stock pattern LOL.

I'm not stuck on D&D; I just think they're one of the best in the industry, and are ready and willing to get whatever ya need done. Much like Tilton is like when it comes to clutches. Basically, I'm sick and tired of trying to convince some company (often inexperienced in custom applications) make something for me. Why waste time w/ that when we have shining starts who can do an A+ job off the bat?

But hey, do your thing, lemme know what your research yields...

~Ramy

wanklin

iTrader: (2)

Before we invest too much effort here. How many people would seriously consider investing in a custom-tailored bellhousing?

show of hands please

calculon

iTrader: (29)

one hand waving fiercely over here. . .i seriously need this to help me with that ugly 20b/gt42r problem that i have under my hood right now. . .

thanks for the legwork guys. . .i really hope this comes through

ryan