Vasilis Olympios

I am looking for an aftermarket secondary fuel rail to fit 2200cc injectors on a currently 100% OEM 1999 FD3S.

I've read about Rotary Performance rail or the FFE step up and I've found some rat's nest related modifications are required but that's on the 93 style vacuum configuration.


However since I have the black vacuum box instead, does it still needs modifications or the more compact nature of it helps ?

Assuming it's all boxed up, you have less options to cut and relocate things

All emissions related items must be retained due to local laws...

TIA guys!

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

Big concern I would have here is the air control valve. I think a lot of secondary rails require it to be blocked off and that is what controls air pump air, you have to have it to pass emissions tests.

I don't think the black box or any of that will be in the way - I can't say for sure, but I do believe that's quite out of the way.

Don't know how far you are going on your setup. Banzai Racing did 350hp to the ground on stock twins with bolt-ons and a Walbro fuel pump, stock secondary injectors -

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...added-1104322/

That's with air pump, main cat, all emissions as well.

Dale

FDAUTO

iTrader: (4)

Top feed injector secondary without deleting emissions components isn't going to happen. Same as Dale mentioned, you can't get around the acv. In addition to that, you HAVE to run an aftermarket ecu to run those injectors. No idea what all the world laws are but I would be willing to bet changing the factory computer automatically fails a car in a place that has emissions standards.

An injector upgrade of any size necessitates an ecu upgrade.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

to keep the ACV and get more fuel you have a couple options.
the first is this guy Revolution Online Catalog / ???????????? it allows you to add 4 injectors, 6x550 injectors can be run with the Power FC, kind of the OG setup
second, you can run an aftermarket FPR, SARD makes the stuff to bolt on. there used to be 660 primaries, so you can run those too, it isn't 2200cc secondaries

what turbo are you trying to run?

Vasilis Olympios

I'll be using a Haltech 2500. They do a quick visual inspection of the engine bay which isn't an issue as long as you have a catalytic converter installed and you pass emissions testing at the exhaust.

Newer cars have some more OBD testing but older cars have simpler testing so they don't look into standalone ECUs. For example, an RX-8 with an aftermarket ECU may be a problem but anything pre 2000s is ok.

Edit:
Regarding the turbo, I'll be running 99 spec twins and using AEM water injection, upgraded radiator and looking into intercooler kits (leaning towards an HKS Vmount with a Koyo rad)

Vasilis Olympios

Dale, didn't you use the Rotary Performance secondary? I found your post/impressions, you seemed to think that an ACV would fit back then. Did you change your mind or find some new info ?

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...-rail-1119103/

ZE Power MX6

iTrader: (157)

I’m pretty sure the FFE rail with 34mm injectors will work with ACV.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

That was 5 years ago . I don't remember.

Really, I'd get to the point where you, directly on paper, need more injectors, then go from there. You may never get to that point. 12psi and a good fuel pump and a good tune and you will be solid and making 300+ all day long HP.

Upgrading fuel rails and injectors is a BIG job, leave it be if you don't have to do it.

Dale

billyboy

2200s are and were *****, dunno why anybody would want to run them nowadays given the options......that's assuming you want to run e85 and need that much injector for BNRs

FFE rails are commonly used over here on late cars - no effect with black box - only seen them with ACV deleted though, possibly their twin turbo rails clear?

Vasilis Olympios

Why are 2200cc bad ? Never heard of this argument before...

I am only upgrading my 2ndary fuel rail and will have the capacity for more fuel when/if I upgrade to BNRs at some point if I have 2200cc. According to the commonly referred fuel calculator, 550cc primaries and 2200cc secondaries will allow me up to ~400whp at standard 40psi fuel pressure (mentionted as "stock") and an estimated duty cycle of 63%.

This means I'll always be safe regarding fuelling with any possible twin turbo setup.

E85 is not used here, only pump gas btw

The price difference doesn't make much sense to go for something smaller from what I've seen...

It goes without saying that an upgraded fuel pump will also be installed. (265lph and above)

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

I was using 2200s for over a decade with zero hiccups but the 2200s are pretty big for what you are trying to do
i would do 1700s secondaries and somewhere in the 800s for primaries whatever its available nowadays
i did switch my original 725s primaries for the 1000s on the haltech 2500 and they run perfectly fine.

before you select the rail though i would make sure that the rail/injector set is figured out because different rails take different height injectors

reason why i am saying to go for smaller secondaries is to help with the primary/secondary transition

Unless you are planning to bring someone from overseas to tune the haltech don't have much faith in the cypriot tuners and i certainly wouldnt trust the remote tuning sessions. My 2cents anyway

Pete_89T2

iTrader: (4)

I can't speak for the guy that said that, but my understanding is that many of the modified 2000~2200cc injectors being sold on the market by less than reputable vendors are based on the Bosch NG12 family of injectors, which were designed to be used with CNG/natural gas fuels. Run them with pure gasoline or any gas/ethanol blends (E10, etc.) for even a short period of time and bad things will happen - they will behave very inconsistently, and they won't deliver fuel in any sort of predicable manner, which is the one thing an injector MUST do. Which makes tuning with them an exercise in futility.

I had a set of such FIs in my FD when I got it, and I spent way too much time chasing my *** trying to tune it, until I chucked them all and went with new Injector Dynamics 1050XDS primaries and 1700XDS secondaries. Big benefit of buying the ID's is you get accurate & correct data from ID on your exact batch of injectors - flow vs. pressure, dead times vs voltage & pressure and short pulse width adder (SPWA) data, which eliminates tuning around FI characteristic unknowns. If you need more than 1700's in the secondaries, ID makes a 2600cc injector too.

gdub29e

iTrader: (16)

Unpopular opinion, but the easiest most cost-effective answer to your problem would be to simply send your stock secondary injectors to RC engineering and have them bored to 1300 cc, make adjustments in the haltech for the change and call it a day. For your particular set up that will be more than enough fuel and you won’t have to deal with any secondary rail.

The 550 cc primary/2200 secondary is not a desirable combination because of staged blending issues. They have a known problem at lower pulse rates delivering the correct amount of fuel. I’m sure plenty of people will disagree with this statement, saying it’s worked perfect for them. I don’t think this will be such an issue with a modern ecu like a haltech you have chosen but if you are set on an aftermarket secondary rail and top feed injectors I would not go past the 1700 cc mark. I believe Henry mentioned the FFE rail that retains the ACV in post #7.


~ GW

billyboy

Over here at least, the 2200s went lean in use, not sure if local fuel blends were to blame - supposedly no mtbe in the mix. It is telling some of the vendors no longer offer them.....just like crappy old 1680 blues, there's better stuff out there. You can safely use modern bigger injectors as primaries now too. Like the other guy, we ran 1050s without issue at one point and bigger now - with no worry about control, staging of a gross injector mismatch (or 20 year old side feeds) - if you think you're going to run out of fuel.

Sorry, put down 99s as BNRs for some reason. Unless it's happy - or on an engine dyno, 400hp on those (and BNRs) is pushing the envelope.....and you'd want absolute faith in the tune too. The bigger compressor versions did typically make around 350hp at around 1 bar on pump - dyno dynamics.

Vasilis Olympios

I was thinking not to change the primaries at all and just either get new 550cc or do some maintenance on them to simplify the installation

The car would be tuned remotely by one of the usual names that pop up for this purpose.

Vasilis Olympios

I am a bit hesitant on the boring option because I've read about some bad stories with them sticking closed with catastrophic results...

Vasilis Olympios

Yeah I'm not aiming for 400whp, I meant that this fuel setup should be good up to that number which leaves me some safe space considering my goal is lower

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

I highly recommend to do both the primaries and secondaries.
i do suspect that you will be using the plug and play adaptor for the 2500 and the oem trigger wheel which simplifies things in terms of initial setup but i would not trust the remote tuning. Call me oldschool call me what you will.
I would spend the extra money and bring someone to do it in person. The plethora of data of the haltech is great but very often not enough.

Vasilis Olympios

Considering I am not aiming for more than 330-350whp on 99 spec twins, would it be wiser to just get 1300cc secondaries than to change both rails and get new injectors?

gdub29e

iTrader: (16)

I was too. But what I found was people were having injectors bored by subpar companies. Or buying used ones and not having them cleaned or serviced first. I’ve been running mine for years no issues. Many others have as well. Just wanted to throw out a simpler solution so you didn’t have to reinvent the wheel.

~ GW

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

i am not going to say that there are no success stories with the bored 1300 but there are also many others that it didnt work out for them.
if it doesnt work out, the results wont be pretty. the haltech ecu will probably pick up the issue and save your engine (maybe) but I personally I dont get a warm and fuzzy feeling using those injectors. i used them in the past, they were ok but i would much rather have a solid injector than a questionable one.

personally i would do both primary and secondary rails. new technology, new injectors as opposed to a ~25 year old oem injector
you know your finances and your capabilities , at the end of the day you are the one to decide but for another 400$ for a primary rail and for a set of primary injectors (depending of course what you are going to choose) you will most likely be set with no problems

gdub29e

iTrader: (16)

Your response is kind of what I expect. There are far more success stories than failures. You just don’t hear about them because people don’t comment unless there’s an issue. To call them a questionable injector is an extreme statement. You make it seem like they are a ticking time bomb waiting to explode. Though I can understand for your set up and peace of mind you would prefer investing a lot more time, money, and energy. You’re not wrong for doing so. The OP simply does not need all of that. I agree that with a modern ECU like a haltech he could use 1000 cc primaries and 2200 Secondary’s. But the reality is he doesn’t need that much fuel. I’m not sure where you’re getting the extra $400 part either, that’s assuming he’s doing the work himself? Because modern injectors like ID are pretty expensive and labor rates are pretty high for a quality shop. They are an old injector, i’ll give you that. Big thing about injectors is having them serviced. Do that and they will be fine. I’m simply giving the OP a different avenue. He could drop these in his current set up and move forward. I don’t see a reason to over complicate. But that’s just me,


~ GW

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

extreme statement? i have seen a few that failed so calling my statement extreme is a little over the top but i have no desire to get in a pissing match. they work for you, great
Back then (15 or so years ago) it was a much more popular choice than now. You would hear more about those failures then. you dont hear so many of these nowadays because people barely use them.
i did state that the injector size of the 2200cc the OP was initially asking for, its definitely an overkill.
size wise the 1300 is fine, as i also stated above.

a pair of ID1050X are around 260$ and a radium primary rail is around 130$. thats where the 400$ comes in.
if hes going to pay someone to do the one rail vs the two rails do you really think that the labor will be that much more?


i am not saying its not an option; its an option. But its definitely the option i would want to avoid for my fd.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

for that HP level you could probably just raise the fuel pressure...

derSchwamm

iTrader: (1)

I used the Rotary Performance fuel rail with all the factory emissions on my 94. It was tight and honestly a little hacky but it works, and has been great for a few years now. Check out Dale's thread here: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...1119103/page4/

^ I took pictures of my own installation with all the emissions equipment in post #95