save the whales, SAVE YOUR MOTOR
04-27-10, 02:10 PM
#426
Agreed, but even if it was JUST one item that was supposed to be lubed- it's not anymore. I think the 13b can be reliable but there's just so many people who don't take the time to question the "standards" that other people gotten used to. There's a reason these motors pop all the time.
04-27-10, 03:42 PM
#427
Recovering Miataholic
Got a headache after reading about 15 posts... and there are 18 pages here. FWIW:
Our '94 was bought new in Sept. 1994. Only mods are DP, AWS delete, EGR delete, and Viton vacuum hoses, except I did replace the old fiberboard LIM gasket with the upgraded S/S version. Mileage is 101K+. Fuel mileage on highway is 22+ mpg, engine is very smooth and has plenty of power (tested only by seat-of-pants method). Have no idea of degree of carbon "plating" on rotors, but seems to me that engine might not sound quite so good if the engine looked like the one in Howard's initial attachments. This is wife's car, and is driven moderately; secondary turbo is rarely engaged. No plans to tear into this engine until it is absolutely necessary, but if I do, I will post pics.
Our '94 was bought new in Sept. 1994. Only mods are DP, AWS delete, EGR delete, and Viton vacuum hoses, except I did replace the old fiberboard LIM gasket with the upgraded S/S version. Mileage is 101K+. Fuel mileage on highway is 22+ mpg, engine is very smooth and has plenty of power (tested only by seat-of-pants method). Have no idea of degree of carbon "plating" on rotors, but seems to me that engine might not sound quite so good if the engine looked like the one in Howard's initial attachments. This is wife's car, and is driven moderately; secondary turbo is rarely engaged. No plans to tear into this engine until it is absolutely necessary, but if I do, I will post pics.
04-27-10, 04:58 PM
#428
Very interested thread as usual from Howard.
I was told by a Mazda tech when I first got my car (1999) that if I want the motor to last, he said to make sure I keep the rpm's up, shift at 4500 when normal driving. He said this will help to keep the carbon out of the motor. I did this pretty much the entire life of the rotary (65K miles). When I pulled it apart because of a coolant seal, the rotors weren't that bad. They didn't look as good as the one's pictured with the premix but I wonder if lugging or not reving the motor contributes to this. just a thought.
Also, use to hear alot about "decarboning" the motor with ATF? This was big ont he forum when I first got on here, anyone still do this? I never did cause it sounded scary...
I was told by a Mazda tech when I first got my car (1999) that if I want the motor to last, he said to make sure I keep the rpm's up, shift at 4500 when normal driving. He said this will help to keep the carbon out of the motor. I did this pretty much the entire life of the rotary (65K miles). When I pulled it apart because of a coolant seal, the rotors weren't that bad. They didn't look as good as the one's pictured with the premix but I wonder if lugging or not reving the motor contributes to this. just a thought.
Also, use to hear alot about "decarboning" the motor with ATF? This was big ont he forum when I first got on here, anyone still do this? I never did cause it sounded scary...
04-27-10, 05:15 PM
#429
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I've read most of this thread but have to stop at this point and ask a quick question. From what I've seen discussed so far it look like most of the non-premix problem stems from the S5 and up electric version of the oil pump vs. the metering mechanical one. So does this thread only really apply to the EOP? Btw...I own an 88 vert with stock N/A 13B. Would I have to worry about this?
P.S. Even if it's not a problem for me I plan on running premix just for added precaution...can never be too safe
P.S. Even if it's not a problem for me I plan on running premix just for added precaution...can never be too safe
04-27-10, 05:38 PM
#430
There is nothing wrong with a good debate. Discuss your opinions on the topic and maybe we'll all stumble upon some interesting info. Its OK to have differences of opinion and have an adult conversation. When some of you descend to juvenile insults or discussing religion and such, then we have to take action since it is against forum rules and not related to the topic at hand. Take that crap to the lounge.
Some mods would have been less lenient than I on some of the comments that I threw in the dumpster.
Cheers
04-27-10, 05:51 PM
#431
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I didn't get a chance to read ALL the replies, but I blocked off the omp and use 2-stroke oil that I throw in the tank every fill up. I change the oil every 2k miles, but my oil still looks like the oil you posted on the left...in fact I'm pretty sure it looks like that after 1k miles. Is that normal?
04-27-10, 06:04 PM
#432
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just need some clarification for my metric tuned brain..
ive been putting in 100ml per 10 litres (recommended by local rotor tuner), for the last 2 yrs..
from my calculation and howards recommendation of 1/2 oz per gallon..
0.5 oz= ~14ml
1 US gallon = ~3.7 litres therefore 2.64 gallons =10 litres.
so.... i should only be putting in ~37ml per 10 litres??
it seems that ive been dumping in **** loads of 2 cycle for no reason??
wtf? lol
it would appreciated if someone could clarify
thanks
ive been putting in 100ml per 10 litres (recommended by local rotor tuner), for the last 2 yrs..
from my calculation and howards recommendation of 1/2 oz per gallon..
0.5 oz= ~14ml
1 US gallon = ~3.7 litres therefore 2.64 gallons =10 litres.
so.... i should only be putting in ~37ml per 10 litres??
it seems that ive been dumping in **** loads of 2 cycle for no reason??
wtf? lol
it would appreciated if someone could clarify
thanks
04-27-10, 06:08 PM
#433
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Interesting reading. I'm no guru but I've learned a thing or two tearing down JDM engines. The majority of the low mileage (40k miles or so) I've popped open looked good until you start playing with the apex and side seals. So much carbon is built up in the springs that you can push the apex/side seal and it just stays pushed in. I'm assuming thats why the engines compression always increases with a good steam cleaning or using AI.
Personally I wish someone would make a kit that would allow you to run external 2 cycle with the (93-98 style) OMP regardless of using single/twin turbos and the RA adapter. This would be a great solution for everyone regardless of race/street engines and is even good running a stock CPU.
Ideally we should have some form of AI + external 2 cycle OMP oil to have a happy wankel.
Thanks Howard for a great post.
Personally I wish someone would make a kit that would allow you to run external 2 cycle with the (93-98 style) OMP regardless of using single/twin turbos and the RA adapter. This would be a great solution for everyone regardless of race/street engines and is even good running a stock CPU.
Ideally we should have some form of AI + external 2 cycle OMP oil to have a happy wankel.
Thanks Howard for a great post.
04-27-10, 06:43 PM
#434
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Oh and some level of premix though I won't start another argument on how much. Running premix through the injectors and putting 2 stroke directly on the seals via the OMP....I don't see how doing both could be a bad thing.
04-27-10, 09:08 PM
#435
Yea I think everyone here can agree to that. I don't have an FD with a rotary in it to look at, but why hasn't anyone done the R&D yet to run the OMP off straight 2 stroke? Shouldn't be that hard I wouldn't think. You're not doing anything but changing the siphoning source of the lube right?
04-27-10, 10:04 PM
#437
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http://pettitracing.com/rx8/index_faq_protek.htm
04-27-10, 10:08 PM
#438
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I don't know anyone arguing that point. Adapting the OMP to run two stroke oil is ok I guess, but if the little OMP toy fails, you're done. I don't trust any ancillary pumps or equipment on these cars, they all seem prone to taking a dump at the most inopportune time. This is the same company that gave us a plastic AST and an IC big enough for a lawn mower, remember. Simple always wins the reliability race.
Last edited by no_more_rice; 04-27-10 at 10:12 PM.
04-28-10, 08:25 AM
#439
I fouled my plugs several times with Amsoil racing synthetic pre-mix....had to push start the car....not good
before that I ran the car for several years pre-mixing "Quicksilver" bean oil intended for outboard 2 stroke engines and never had a problem....just alot of deposits and dropping vacuum....cleaned up with MMO
I've since given up on pre-mix entirely....hope my OMP doesn't take a dump
before that I ran the car for several years pre-mixing "Quicksilver" bean oil intended for outboard 2 stroke engines and never had a problem....just alot of deposits and dropping vacuum....cleaned up with MMO
I've since given up on pre-mix entirely....hope my OMP doesn't take a dump
LOL! So, 1/2oz or 1/4??
04-28-10, 08:46 AM
#440
I used to think injecting 2 cycle with OMP but now I'm re-thinking this idea and just inject clean 4 cycle. I'll be picking select few rotary guys in the country about this, minus Obama and Jesus
Also regarding OMP failure, I have yet to see one fail. If you are worried about it, like no_more_rice continue to bitch about those of you being lazy, don't be lazy and check it regularly for its function
For those of you too lazy to look up the how to check procedure: Process of checking is in Workshop Manual section D14 - 17.Oh, also too add, as I'm sure some of you are thinking, "how long do I have when OMP fails?". And this is my guess but there are people who purposely blocked off the jet for 2+ years with over 20+K miles without ill affect. So, If are worried about OMP failure, I say checking every 6 months to a year would be fine. But like I said, I haven't seen one fail nor hear from anyone I know who lost an OMP. Some however lost function to OMP because the wires got rubbed off from the water pump belt but not actual OMP failing.
Last edited by Herblenny; 04-28-10 at 08:55 AM.
04-28-10, 09:27 AM
#441
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virtually all the motors i disassemble are non premix running the EOP. the primary reason they are not running is interior carbon.
while i respect the good Doctor's opinion unfortunately reality must intercede here. pumping dirty carboned up 4 cycle oil into our combustion chambers is not the best option.
if you like your EOP, do the 2 cycle conversion. that works for me.
i prefer nothing but 2 cycle oil in my combustion chambers and around the apex, oil, corner and side seals. as previously posted, in 2008 i pulled my perfectly good 500 hp motor that i had built 4 years prior just to do forensics. i wanted to measure all wear metrics.
the motor had been gaining compression over the 4 years and showed the highest compression just before i pulled it.
the apex seal to groove clearance was between 2 and 3 thou which was exactly as built. the side seals were 3 thou which is up from 2 thou. the apex seal crowns were perfectly rounded as new. there was no carbon build up anywhere, just a dusting.
my motor had been smiling thru 6 dyno sessions averaging 5 hours each with over 25 4th gear pulls for each session. probably 500 third gear pulls on the roads.
yes i run methanol and no doubt the motor has greatly benefited from it.
methanol is a super solvent so if my lube in the upper part of the motor was insufficient the apex seals crowns would be flatted on the leading shoulder. they were not.
without exception every motor i have disassembled that had the EOP removed and replaced w premix showed no premature seal wear.
while theory is helpful, and i theorize lots, when it comes to building motors i am a pragmatist. if it works, it is in my motors.
premix has worked for me since 1983. BTW, my Roger Mandeville and Daryl Drummond built GT3 motors were nothing but premix. during my 35 minute SCCA races, due to the porting, i never ran less than 7000 rpm and shifted at 10,000 rpm.
this has been a long, but IMO, helpful thread. there have been lots of points of view here. i truly believe that the primary culprit is the sourcing for lube by the EOP. i am pretty sure Mazda didn't want to ask people to premix and didn't want to add a proper 2 cycle oil reservoir as they didn't feel people would keep it filled so they gritted their teeth and used the oil sump.
so i don't have a problem w the pump per se, just the lube source.
my recommendation is to either fixture in a 2 cycle tank or junk the pump and premix. 1/2 oz for normal driving and 1 oz for heavy lifting, my mix since 1983.
and for sure, throw some AI at your FD.
howard
while i respect the good Doctor's opinion unfortunately reality must intercede here. pumping dirty carboned up 4 cycle oil into our combustion chambers is not the best option.
if you like your EOP, do the 2 cycle conversion. that works for me.
i prefer nothing but 2 cycle oil in my combustion chambers and around the apex, oil, corner and side seals. as previously posted, in 2008 i pulled my perfectly good 500 hp motor that i had built 4 years prior just to do forensics. i wanted to measure all wear metrics.
the motor had been gaining compression over the 4 years and showed the highest compression just before i pulled it.
the apex seal to groove clearance was between 2 and 3 thou which was exactly as built. the side seals were 3 thou which is up from 2 thou. the apex seal crowns were perfectly rounded as new. there was no carbon build up anywhere, just a dusting.
my motor had been smiling thru 6 dyno sessions averaging 5 hours each with over 25 4th gear pulls for each session. probably 500 third gear pulls on the roads.
yes i run methanol and no doubt the motor has greatly benefited from it.
methanol is a super solvent so if my lube in the upper part of the motor was insufficient the apex seals crowns would be flatted on the leading shoulder. they were not.
without exception every motor i have disassembled that had the EOP removed and replaced w premix showed no premature seal wear.
while theory is helpful, and i theorize lots, when it comes to building motors i am a pragmatist. if it works, it is in my motors.
premix has worked for me since 1983. BTW, my Roger Mandeville and Daryl Drummond built GT3 motors were nothing but premix. during my 35 minute SCCA races, due to the porting, i never ran less than 7000 rpm and shifted at 10,000 rpm.
this has been a long, but IMO, helpful thread. there have been lots of points of view here. i truly believe that the primary culprit is the sourcing for lube by the EOP. i am pretty sure Mazda didn't want to ask people to premix and didn't want to add a proper 2 cycle oil reservoir as they didn't feel people would keep it filled so they gritted their teeth and used the oil sump.
so i don't have a problem w the pump per se, just the lube source.
my recommendation is to either fixture in a 2 cycle tank or junk the pump and premix. 1/2 oz for normal driving and 1 oz for heavy lifting, my mix since 1983.
and for sure, throw some AI at your FD.
howard
edit: btw, those debates were amusing entertainment. thanks guys! also, for my next build i may try running an OMP that will inject 2 cycle oil instead to see how that works out. after that ill decide which is better for me. OMP or none.
04-28-10, 10:06 AM
#442
Even better I think is what Barry Bordes is doing by tapping on to stock OMP as adapter require some tweaking to fit correctly with stock OMP (could use later model). I'm planning to do this with my RE motor and 3 rotor.
I used to think injecting 2 cycle with OMP but now I'm re-thinking this idea and just inject clean 4 cycle.
I used to think injecting 2 cycle with OMP but now I'm re-thinking this idea and just inject clean 4 cycle.
I knwo the RA adapter is out there but it seems like no one has been able to get it to fit properly. Especially with the twins.
And why would you inject 4 cycle oil? It's common knowledge it's not meant to be burned. You're have to admit that. 2 stroke is the proper lubricant for this application.
04-28-10, 10:18 AM
#443
I'm about to tear down my stock 90 n/a with 178K on it that failed due to a water seal. In addition to the OMP, I started running premix at about 1/2 oz per gallon the last few years of it's life just to be safe, although I wasn't religious about it (occasionally lazy, is more accurate).
When I get it apart, I'll take some photos of the rotors and post. It's certainly not conclusive, but at least kinda of interesting.
When I get it apart, I'll take some photos of the rotors and post. It's certainly not conclusive, but at least kinda of interesting.
04-28-10, 02:44 PM
#445
ok so since, like I said, I don't have an FD with a running rotary so I can't look into this- Are there two of those kind of pieces on the motor? And so you're blocking off the original oil source with the plate correct? How would adding that barb pull from a different source? I'm not sure how this system works.
04-28-10, 03:29 PM
#447
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I was using both back then. OMP + pre-mix = fouled plugs, at least in my case. After I blocked off the OMP and ran Amsoil Interceptor at 1/2 oz/gal I didn't have any more problems. My original engine was carboned up pretty bad thanks to the OMP and 4 stroke, so I'm speaking from direct experience concerning what works.
04-28-10, 04:04 PM
#448
I was using both back then. OMP + pre-mix = fouled plugs, at least in my case. After I blocked off the OMP and ran Amsoil Interceptor at 1/2 oz/gal I didn't have any more problems. My original engine was carboned up pretty bad thanks to the OMP and 4 stroke, so I'm speaking from direct experience concerning what works.
Well, here is my question, either to you or someone else. So, OMP itself is OK when used by itself and shown that engines could last 180+K miles. When added 2 cycle of either non-synthetic or synthetic leads to fouling of plugs.. So, is 2 cycle not burning clean like they say or is mixed with oil causing this? Or just the mixture of 2 cycle and oil bit too much for certain point of OMP injection and 2 cycle?? What I would like to see is someone with Sohn adapter, run with 2 cycle, and pre-mix the tank. Lets see if it fouls the plugs. If it doesn't I guess oil and pre-mix is too much and not be used together on daily drive and used just for hard track days... Or maybe it suggest OMP 2cycle and pre-mix will give perfect balance for rotary cars..
04-28-10, 04:46 PM
#450
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If you really want to keep the OMP I would run a remote tank with a clean burning synthetic two stroke
btw, here's an RX-8 owner running 400:1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1138154
btw, here's an RX-8 owner running 400:1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1138154