no_more_rice

That's fine, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but there are abundant case histories proving you're wrong, not just Howard or others on this forum running 256:1, but many Idemitsu customers, according to the rep I spoke to on the phone. The same guy also referenced at least one user who tracks his car at 400:1 and has been doing so for years. Pettit recommends 4 oz per tank. http://www.pettitracing.com/rx8/index_maintenance.htm RX-7 World uses 1/4 oz/gal and has been doing it for years. If all these people have it all wrong, I would think there would be problems/failures reported, don't cha think??

Pettit even recommends thir lube in piston engines at 150-200:1

http://www.pettitracing.com/faq/faq_protek-r.htm

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Again, you are comparing two different types of driving.. Just as Iannetti stated, Race and Street use are different. Just because a race car that's on gas majority of time (which if you are premixing it makes sense) vs. street driven car that might sit at idle or decel for a long distance or time, can't not be compare to what some of these track car uses it for. Hence why SpeedSource guys will not recommend pre-mix on street driven car.

Also, Barban is correct. Fuel itself is a lubricant. As I stated way back in this thread, there are people who blocked off their OMP and drove 20+K miles without any ill affect. So, just because you have 10K miles on with pre-mix only doesn't tell me much.

Bottomline, until someone could provide real scientific testing between OMP vs Pre-mix alone at 1/2 oz per gallon... or 1oz per gallon.. I would prefer to listen to those who have far more experience than any of us on this thread. If you are using your rotaries for track only, I say go for it!!! Otherwise, think twice and make sure it makes sense to you ;p

no_more_rice

Blah, now it's a retreat to the worthless strawman argument of "oh it works for the track but not for the street". Sheer nonsense. Again, it's been five years and 30k for me and my compression is excellent. Let's review what Howard posted on p. 16, shall we?



You've emailed everyone under the sun about the issue, reaching for any possible way out of admitting you're simply wrong and two stroke pre-mix is an excellent alternative to the factory OMP 4 stroke oil band-aid.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

LOL! I have OMP and I have over 40+K miles over 6 years? So, what is your point?? Also, do you not understand the logic Dr. Iannetti stated?

Barry Bordes

The metering oil always pumps oil, even on deceleration.

Image from Yamamoto's book.

Barry

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

Play nice gents.

grimple1

iTrader: (1)

that would be a first for this thread, gracer7

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

These are all hearsay and conjecture. Yes, the recommendations carry heavy weight, but it seems to me that all of these engines have shorter life expectancies. And, it still doesn't make me feel better about the decel problem. I want a 100k mile turbo rotary and I'm unconvinced that 8oz a tank will keep the housings and seals up. I need you to drive your car a lot more, open it up, and take pictures. I want to see high mileage examples with mine own eyes.

no_more_rice

The motor is not under load for that short period of time, so it's essentially irrelevant. Racers have been using pre-mix two stroke oil for decades and I've never heard the "no oil injection under deceleration" issue raised until this thread, it's just another tangential item people latch onto, with no basis other than perception/imagination. Everyone has religious beliefs, no one is is committed to 100% empirical science, just look at darwinists as a prime example of how far this can go.

I think the real resistance to pre-mixing is plain laziness and perceived inconvenience. People don't want to carry the oil in their car and/or take an extra 15 seconds at the pump.

no_more_rice

Howard's experience (with pictures to back it up) is hearsay/conjecture? If I opened up my engine and snapped a few pics, would that change your mind? No, it wouldn't.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Its very funny how I think its funny how pre-mix only is "another tangential item people latch onto, with no basis other than perception/imagination" as there is no scientific proof from street driven cars... as OMP set up has shown duration and reliability for over 17 years. And also, how some totally ignores top rotary engine guru's thoughts about Pre-mix and reason why its not recommend is ignored on street driven cars.

Blah blah blah.. Unrelated

Love how you stereotype people instead of listening to reasons..

Again, if you read any of what I've posted, Barban, and others posted, there is no lubrication when engine is at decel with pre-mix only. I guess you never go down a hill?? and when you do go down a hill, I guess you either press on the gas or put in neutral? How about when slowing down from say 80MPH? Do you put in neutral and use the brake?? I guess we should all pre-mix and have specific lesson on how to drive our cars so you don't think of us as lazy??

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

As I stated from the start, I consider Howard's engine to be a track engine.. Also, he was using AI. He himself stated that he doesn't know how much of the cleaniness etc was dude to AI. My opinion is that AI has a lot to do with how his engine looks.


If you opened up your engine, only those who doesn't know much about rotary engine might say, "Oooooo, Pre-mix must be doing something!". But the truth is, some OMP engine might look good too. Just because one, two, three, or maybe four look similar doesn't mean much as in scientific world, engine should be compared in similar matter.. I mean, again, look at the stats. There are thousands of engines that did fine with OMP... this pre-mix only BS is exactly what you stated, "another tangential item people latch onto, with no basis other than perception/imagination" just because of few pictures..

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

Both of these cases have not been driven enough to be compared to high mileage OMP engines. So, no it probably wouldn't change my mind.

Obviously the decrease in carbon is a great benefit, but I would venture that this has more to do with AI and clean oil than anything else.

I am interested in long term housing and side-plate wear relative to a comprable OMP engine with regard to mileage and use(race vs street).

KKMpunkrock2011

iTrader: (5)

this thread REALLY needs to be cleaned up now.

Finster

iTrader: (1)

herblenny's and no more rice's drama is the only reason to tune in here... This issue doesn't really result in a blown motor like a few other turbo rotary issues...

I'm sure its been stated here many times but:
If you have a PFC and the OMP goes out the PFC wont go into limp mode.

That is the only info I need about this. I had a 186 k motor on stock ecu. Now I will be using a PFC and the car will NOT be a daily driver anymore. People's individual scenario's should be the decision maker.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Exactly! I've been stating that and I'm willing to 'LEARN' if enough data shows me otherwise... and not by no more rice's conversation with Idemitsu rep as I also had conversation with same Idemitsu rep and he couldn't provide me with answer why their patent testing uses so much pre-mix to gauge wear issues and when asked for some of their data showing 1oz per gallon and how they came up with that, no answer.

Not to cause more debate... But pending what level of carbon to start off with and how much pre-mix alone might decrease if it doesn't increase. Also the level in which carbon build up is bad is for the engine is NOT known. Some people think ALL carbon build up is bad, but that's not quite true either. Its again, lack of proof of how much and what level is un-determine and some just assume NO carbon will make your engine last longer. I don't agree with that.

Also, If you read Iannetti quote I've, He stated, "The other downside of just pre-mix on a street car is the fouling of spark plugs and carbon build-up inside the engine due to the higher quantity of oil used than is required when an engine is operated at low loads for a very long time".

Again, if you mix the ratio for high load and street driven, you would likely to build up carbon when you put high miles. But if you mix it for low load and drive mostly at high load, than you are not getting enough lubrication for the engine. And at this point, no one seems to know what exact ratio should be. Also, think about this, Not all engines and 3rd gens are the same, especially when it comes to tuning. I mean, how many of you hire someone to tune your car?? Some engines are tune richer, use race gas, some uses E10, E85, All Ethanol, etc. Again, statement of 1 oz or 1/2 oz per gallon and think it will cover all types of car just seem questionable. Obviously, if you are premixing ONLY and get your car tuned much richer than someone, in theory, you are lubricating better at same exact level of measurement of something.. But finding out exact ratio to maximize lubrication and power is going to take time, trial and error, run time on the engine, detail plan of how you are going test... and TONS OF MONEY!!!! Anyone in field of science should know, experiment like that would take a lots of time and lot of money.

Me too!! I would like to see it? If enough data is shown and documented well and reasonable, I'll believe it! At this point, I just don't see it.

I enjoyed myself too.. until it got edited

WOW! 186K on stock motor... I'm assuming with OMP?? Hmm... if so, I say you must be lying to us, as if it had OMP, your engine should of failed at 20K ish


**Just in case those of you who do not know who Francesco Iannetti is.. He's a material Scientist who developed the ceramic seals as we know it. His seals are used by pretty much all Mazda sponsored race team including this year's 24hr Daytona winning team, SpeedSource. He also worked at NASA to help develop heat shields for the Space Shuttles. He also helped with Mazda LMP car to reduced the noise level to meet race requirement and at the same time maintaining its power level.**

djseven

iTrader: (56)

Ive read the first coule of pages of this thread an apologize if I what I bring up has been thoroughly discussed as I know it was lightly touched on in the first couple of pages.

Howard was running Water/meth injection correct on his engine? This is the biggest factor in the difference of the carbon build up, not the omp although it does lead to some carbon deposit. Every engine I tear down that was ran with water/meth or even just water injection alone has extremely clean rotors in comparison to an engine ran without it.

I still think Howard is conveying good info here and if someone is responsible enough it is not a bad idea to delete the OMP. However, certain aftermarket seals will destroy housings if not lubricated properly and I dont believe everyone understands how important it is to premix every tank once the omp is deleted.

If the Water/meth issue has been discussed at length I apologize but it is the primary reason the rotor is so much cleaner. I have no clue how I missed this thread until now.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

I would agree that the effect of premix on carbon buildup in the absence of AI is up for debate.

I cant say that carbon will directly lead to disaster, but I like the idea of a carbon free engine. Seems to me that the non-uniform, carbon-coated surface would lend itself to hot-spotting, and thus detonation.

A great reason to wring out the engine regularly, and/or modify the OMP to run 2-stroke(if possible with your setup), and/or run AI.
I dont think I could stand plug life being any shorter than it already is. If gasoline is producing carbon then even clean-burning 2-stroke can't be any better.

Couldn't agree more.

Until someone commits to that and explains it well enough it looks like people will have to utilize Howard's pragmatism. If you're not ruining housings and seals, and your method feels right then stick with it and report back.

mefarri

iTrader: (2)

Are you ******* kidding me? Really? How could you even type that? So based off your theory, I can run my vq35 with no oil as long as my throttle inputs never get out of vacuum? That's the dumbest ******* thing I've heard in this whole thread. At least say you think it's being lubed enough by residual oil- don't just say it doesn't even need it to begin with. Yesterday on my way home from work I drove down a series of hills for a good minutes straight at least of no throttle input. Just engine braking in 4th and using the brake pedal to modulate speed. So in your theory the engine doesn't need oil for any of that time. Pure genius.

Other things could be that in fact there is enough residual oil/ unburnt fuel to lube everything on the race track as they engine brake into corners etc. But my thinking is, maybe it's there because they tune their motors to run low 10:1's AFR's for safety on the track. Thus, there's leftover fuel to lube things. You start tuning it out to high 11's on the street and all that margin could disapear. I don't know. That's just a theory.

Also, I don't think we're giving WI/AI enough credit for cleaning thing. I will say I'm about 98% sure that's what lead to those clean motors Howard posted.

What we're really focusing on now is whether or not pre mix can lube properly. Let's all agree that the lack of carbon is mainly due to WI/AI.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

In all fairness, the only thing not being oiled on closed throttle is the combustion chamber: apex seals, corner seals, side seals. So, it is as if the piston rings were not being lubricated except residually...kindof.

It's definitely an issue IMHO.

djseven

iTrader: (56)

Apples/oranges

no_more_rice

This is why I use Amsoil Interceptor, it's an exceptionally clean burning, high detergent two cycle oil, and I've seen first hand how well it performs in power valve equipped waverunners and MX bikes.
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ait.aspx

Yes, excessive two cycle oil can foul spark plugs in a four cycle engine, which is why the pre-mix ratio is so important.

Experience has shown, time and time again, that 1/2 oz per gallon works very well. The same two parties here can ramble about this until the apocalypse, but Howard and I will keep right on proving the naysayers wrong. 1/2 oz/gal lubricates the seals and mitigates carbon build-up caused by pre-mixing four cycle oil and/or lugging the engine. Period. I don't need to email Obama, I know it works.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

You've got a lot of driving to do, sir. I suggest you hop to it.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Again you surprise me.. You say this.. But then just a period (.) after you say this..

So you say the ratio is important but then you say experience shows 1/2 oz per gallon?? Do you really think you have enough experience to state that?? Do you think all engines are the same?? Do you think all engines are driven in the same matter?? How about tuning?? Gas they use?? Type of gas, etc. Your logic and your statements are kind of ill.

You are something... I'll be the bigger man and I'm not going to comment to irrelevant non-sense statements. Obviously you have to sort to comment like that because you realize you are special and as southern people call you, "Precious".

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

By the way no_more_rice.. are you the same guy who used to have SN: YZF-R1??