3rd Generation Specific (1993-2002) 1993-2002 Discussion including performance modifications and Technical Support Sections.

RE-Medy upgraded water pump - better flow, and HP

Old 03-05-08, 01:21 PM
  #26  
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It would be a bit of work to truly test this water pump - I guess if you saw reduced temps on a track car, that's a good sign there . Flow isn't something that's easy to measure.

The good thing is the designers are some REALLY damn smart guys - Mazmart does a lot of rotary race cars, 26B's, high end stuff. I can at least feel good about putting some faith in their engineering. Moreso than "dude on the forum".

Anyhow, glad someone finally found something else to mod on the car .

Dale
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Old 03-05-08, 01:55 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by DaleClark View Post
It would be a bit of work to truly test this water pump - I guess if you saw reduced temps on a track car, that's a good sign there . Flow isn't something that's easy to measure.

The good thing is the designers are some REALLY damn smart guys - Mazmart does a lot of rotary race cars, 26B's, high end stuff. I can at least feel good about putting some faith in their engineering. Moreso than "dude on the forum".

Anyhow, glad someone finally found something else to mod on the car .

Dale
Well, just looking at the dyno curve, I'd bet that it does flow better evrywhere the HP output is lower (meaning the WP is doing more work and pumping more), i.e., most of the RPM range.

Dave
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Old 03-05-08, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Kento View Post
I'd still like to see some flow rate comparison test results on this before plunking down hard-earned cash. No disrespect meant to Dale or the makers of this product, but there's a lot more that goes into water pump design than just nice looks and a dyno graph.
I agree with you, especially because I don't have $235 burning a hole in my pocket.

My opinion of the design is that it is almost certainly an improvement over the stock pump. The stock pump uses a simple stamped sheetmetal impeller that resembles a mixer impeller much more than a pump impeller. The design I see them using is proven in many other applications, and as you can see making that design is definitely more expensive. But there is the question lurking - for all the effort Mazda made in developing this car, surely they would have spent another $100 to gain 5hp - Mazda's engineers weren't napping when they picked a water pump design.

Last edited by dgeesaman; 03-05-08 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 03-05-08, 07:58 PM
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looks pretty nice
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Old 03-05-08, 10:27 PM
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I hope people are just not looking at the impeller and making a judgement that it is better.

I agree with testing info and a 100 hr durability. It would interesting to see its efficiency and its slip torque value....
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Old 03-05-08, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by dgeesaman View Post
But there is the question lurking - for all the effort Mazda made in developing this car, surely they would have spent another $100 to gain 5hp - Mazda's engineers weren't napping when they picked a water pump design.
I can't disagree that this may reduce the load on the crank thus increasing RWHP, but, after several years as an engineer in the fabrication of aircraft I can say this...price is what drives design. Engineers have a wish list, meaning, simple things that can improve performance, but it comes down to cost. The bottom line is that there is a "bottom line". The product has to be affordable and sell, so in the end, engineers have to revert to designs meet that performance requirements, are safe, and cheap to manufacture. Stamped parts that are then hydro-formed are cheaper to manufacture than parts that are machined. All of the $100 improvements, weather it be spent in handling, air-conditioning, or power, will add up quickly. Budgets suck in designing something because they limit what "could be". This, though, is real life and real business. On the plus side it gives the aftermarket guys business, and the fabrication engineers will just have to live vicariously through them.
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Old 03-05-08, 11:00 PM
  #32  
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If Rick Engman is involved I am willing to write a check without any proof of the claims about this product. Very nice looking piece.
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Old 03-05-08, 11:03 PM
  #33  
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Anyone know if its actually their own brand new water pump, or do they just take take a new water pump and press in their own impeller.
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Old 03-06-08, 10:47 AM
  #34  
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I just ordered one along with their modified thermostat. I have a NASA event on 3/20-21 and it should be on by that time. I'll report back once I test it.
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Old 03-06-08, 10:51 AM
  #35  
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I'd buy it on the flow data but not on that dyno sheet. Like DaveW pointed out, the car dynoed less hp to the wheels through out the rev range until 7.5k. Then with ignition break up and the spikey data points on both runs, the 208 looks like the top of a momentary spike to hit the 208, not a nice semi-even curve at the top. But will Rick doing the design and all the race history he's got, I'd trust try his design over one of us trying it as well.

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Old 03-06-08, 11:07 AM
  #36  
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Well I ordered one. HP gain or not, the extra cooling when I'm at the track will be worth it.

Fact is, if the stock pump is cavitating at high RPM, the power draw will drop. So an improved pump will draw more power with RPM and may show up on the dyno sheet. (In fact, power draw should follow RPM ^ 3). The improved efficiency may offset some or all of that, but the point is that keeping my engine cooler will probably offset it even further.

Dave
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Old 03-06-08, 11:18 AM
  #37  
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Yeah, I'm pretty confident that Rick and Co wouldn't produce a crap product and put their names on it.

I spoke with the rep Paul about it for about 20 minutes and he was very helpful sharing info that isn't on that crappy flash based web site. Looks cool but doesn't work at conveying info very well.

They also offer a modified thermostat which I will be trying. One benefit is that you should not use an underdriven water pump pulley with their water pump so the money I would have spent on that for track use is negated.
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Old 03-06-08, 11:46 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by CMonakar View Post
If Rick Engman is involved I am willing to write a check without any proof of the claims about this product. Very nice looking piece.
Rick IS involved in this project.
I put one on my RX-8 a few months back and I've seen the difference in temps. (via digital nordskog gauges) The temps are slower at almost all speeds and drop much faster under load then they did with the OEM pump.

I haven't dyno'd it yet as hp wasn't really on my mind when I bought it. We all know our cars love to run hot, if I could help alliviate some of that, I was sold. So far, loving this pump.
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Old 03-06-08, 03:30 PM
  #39  
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This looks like it could be really good but I would need to see a flow chart vs the stock pump. It would be good to compare with electric as well. Has anyone talked to them about actual numbers?
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Old 03-06-08, 11:23 PM
  #40  
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gracer7, where did you order from?
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Old 03-07-08, 07:14 AM
  #41  
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Dale,

thanks for the heads up! this is the first i have noticed the thread and the unit is going on my car.

water is a heavy liquid. while you might think that 50W oil is tough to move consider oil weighs 7.1 pounds per gallon. water weighs 8.3 presenting a real challenge not to cavitate at higher rpm.

can you imagine what the compressor map would look like if we were to use the stock impeller as a turbocharger?

cooling is a big deal and i will defer to Rick Engman/Jim Downing.

maybe i will swap the original water pump impeller into my blender. on second thought my blender has a better impeller.

blenders= margaritaville. TGIF

thanks Dale.

hc
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Old 03-07-08, 10:51 AM
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I think you should be looking at the viscosity not the density. all this speculation is pointless without actual numbers.
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Old 03-07-08, 04:32 PM
  #43  
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Talking

Originally Posted by gracer7-rx7 View Post
Yeah, I'm pretty confident that Rick and Co wouldn't produce a crap product and put their names on it.

.
Yeah I'd hope so too as I bought this waterpump along with the engine he built for me,but as I've yet to install the engine in my car I can't say how well it works.Rick Engman is an awesome guy that much I can attest to.
Though quite a few RX8 owners have tried it from what i"ve seen
from their fourm.
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Old 03-07-08, 06:04 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by howard coleman View Post
blenders= margaritaville. TGIF

hc
And thus spake the super-guru. I'm having me a Spaten, though.

I've been thinking about this more though - this water pump impeller design has been in use for years. I wonder if some cavitation is expected, which would throttle back the hp loss that goes up with RPM^3. While a race car of course would never benefit from such a thing, it's interesting to consider w.r.t. a street vehicle that won't spend a lot of time in the 6k+ range.

Dave
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Old 03-07-08, 06:12 PM
  #45  
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Great find, just in time for my engine swap, I'll be sure to add that to my parts list.
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Old 03-07-08, 06:32 PM
  #46  
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It seems like every time some new product comes out, everyone immediately has to have it. I find this to be somewhat naive. It seems to me any product that is going on an already "fragile" car, should go thru some extensive testing before being installed.

This same sort of excitement was seen when those metal cats come out. Everyone was so hot to get one right away. Now it turns out that they don't work that well in reducing pollutants, and they don't last very long under the duress of our high exhaust temps.

This may very well be a good product. I'm not saying it isn't. I am saying prove it

One more thing: It appears that this product robs power thru most of the rpm range, and will only provide a real benefit to road racers. I don't think I will be getting one.
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Old 03-07-08, 08:26 PM
  #47  
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It sounds like it's about to get a road test by some forum members here. I'm staying optimistic because i'd like a water pump that you don't have to change the pulley everytime you want to track the car but still be able to drive her in stop and go traffic in 90+ weather (i.e. Greddy pulley).
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Old 03-07-08, 10:11 PM
  #48  
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rick engman = eric clapton

rick's rotaries won approx half the races they entered in 50 car very competitive fields in the IMSA RS series. rick's Kudzu won Le Mans LMP2 in 1996 with a little help from Jim Downing. and now Rick has designed a new impeller?

sign me up.

i'll pass on the road test, and i couldn't care less about the dyno sheet, if you are looking for hp best look somewhere else. i am looking for thermal efficiency.

and what's w the "fragile" stuff? build it right and the 2.6 liter 13B rotary will reliably make 600 RWHP w a bit of methanol.

FD... killer car, butt ugly water pump impeller.

Stix, what's w the overheating in Des Moines?? 90 degrees? i run pulleys and haven't had a problem on track or street.

hc
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Old 03-07-08, 10:31 PM
  #49  
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No i actually don't. I'm just quoting all the people that say that oversize pulleys reduce cooling in street conditions. I never have a problem with my v-mount.
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Old 03-08-08, 11:19 AM
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^You probably won't either. This really is a mod that should pay dividends on track but probably won't make substantial difference on the street. You don't need an underdriven water pump for street use either as the % of time spent at revs that may cavitate the coolant is minimal.

It sounds like you'll have a few reviews on street and track from a few of us soon.
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