boostin13b

I'm an old timer finally getting back in the FD scene. I've built big turbo cars and daily drove high hp RX7s with full 4" exhaust on harsh coils.......but now I'm old. FDs are rare and I appreciate them for what they were originally designed as, a well balanced drivers car. After searching for a bit and not wanting to pay USDM prices for a near stock car I was planning on putting miles on, I bought a RHD from Japan and is currently making the trip to the mainland.

The only mods i plan are for reliability and what I would call "bpu" (I used to build a lot of supras too) which is essentially intake, exhaust and supporting mods to keep the car reliable with those such as fuel pump, twin power etc.

The car as it sits is stock with only a catback on it which will eventually be replaced with something else of my choice that is on the quiet end but still flows decently. I've got a few in mind but I need to vet the car first and finish the remodel on the house before the wife will allow more funds to be used on the toys.

Goal is 300-350 reliable hp keeping sequential operating properly. After replacing all fluids and making sure the car is solid i plan to install my autoexe intake and supporting mods. When the stock twins give up the ghost then go 99 spec or sp twins or something similar but still keep the same power range and sequential.

My main question is are their any "modern" EMSs that can properly control the factory sequentials out of the box without custom inputs and outputs to control the solenoids? Last time I was tuning was 15+ years ago and I was building cars with Microtech, E6K, AEM V1 and V2 was the new hot thing. Power FC was always the go-to for RX7s that didn't want to go full standalone. I am still seeing a lot of power FC posts and I'm honestly surprised it's so widely used without many of the "modern" features of the newer EMSs (infinity, Haltech 2500 etc.) Is power FC still the best bet to control the factory sequential system? I'm well aware of the awesome banzai thread testing all the basic parts for standard upgrades in which a power FC is used there ad well.

Sorry for the long post, ive been searching threads without much luck and the EMS forum is fairly dead. Most of the info in there are for full builds and not associated with sequential control. I did have AEM V1 running well and controlling sequential on my last FD but it took a lot of work and would rather go Power FC than do all that work again for my power goals.

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

Lots to debate here but my personal individual opinion is that for your power goals on a near stock car the PFC is just right. Specially if you already have it or get it second hand for a lower price.
And even more so if using the Datalogit and the recently developed FC Tweak software to fine tune your map.

If starting from scratch, getting an all new setup, then maybe a newer PnP solution might be a better investment to future proof your setup.

Kalypto

Not sure how an Elite compares on twins control out the box, but it was fairly drop in and go for an Elite 2500. All I needed was a swap to a wideband.

boostin13b

Does it support sequential control out of the box or do you need to set up the outputs for the solenoids manually?

Kalypto

I didn't have to with the Twin Turbo S6 base map. No.

boostin13b

that's good to hear. Massive price difference between power FC and a 2500 but that may be the route once I start digging deeper. I had thought I heard Apexi was going to put out a more modern replacement for the power FC as well.

mr2peak

A more modern version of the FC would be sweet, but low volume production. Where did you hear that?

boostin13b

I would take that with a grain of salt as it has just been word of mouth and probably whishful thinking. I haven't been able to find anything concrete on it searching. The only thing that was somewhat hopeful was a youtube video I saw (can't remember which one but I'll try to track it down) where someone was visiting Apexi in their video and it was mentioned there was a power FC replacement or update in the future.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

It is true, the 414BZ004 has been replaced with the 414-Z004. We have already started shipping them out late last month. I did not have chance to plug one in or even open a box to look, just wanted to get them shipped. Expecting another shipment later this month. Fairly sure it was driven by the chip shortage. The PFC and Commander are now sold individually.

If you go to the Apexi USA website you will see that the 414BZ004 has been discontinued

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

+1 the PFC plus the FC Tweak software is really really good.

the PFC gets used because the install is easy and its really accurate

Sammy Built

iTrader: (18)

And the debate begins. I've used both power fc's and haltech elites pnp version and it's not much of a comparison. Its 2022 now, so engine protection features, remote tuning, and performance scalability is not a bad way to go if you're driving a $30 to $60 grand FD.

Engine parts are not easy to find and quite expensive these days that's why I prefer some sort of engine protection for an over boost scenario or anything that can be controlled as a safety net by an experienced tuner.

boostin13b

So are there any updated capabilities or just a hardware change between the old and new that you know of? I was happy to see they had an OLED commander now which is old news, I've been out of touch.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

Is the PowerFC old? Yep. Does the Haltech have a ton more features? Yep.

But for a mild bolt-on setup the PowerFC is tried and true.

IMHO if you are going with a setup like you are talking about, PFC all day long. I would only go Haltech if you REALLY want to play around with all the extra features and what not but you can just as easily end up with a hassle if you aren't careful with what you are doing. If you are going single turbo or doing something exotic the Haltech is a great way to go.

I've had a PFC on my car for probably 15 years. Blown zero engines, had MANY miles of fun, and ZERO hassle.

FC-Tweak pushes it over the edge with being able to auto-tune and clean up your maps and settings.

Dale

boostin13b

Thats what I was thinking. I have not used FC-Tweak as it was not available last time I touched one. Does it have any safety capabilities now to cut spark or anything based on parameters such as O2, boost and RPM in case there is a lean situation under heavy load? Those safety features were the main thing I feel was missing before. I also do not like to have the commander hanging out all the time. I would like to have all data patched to a dashboard on a android type head unit for a nice clean look. I also plan to run some form of water injection for maintenance and safety. I'm in Florida and I'm sure I'll get plenty of Heat soak sticking with SMIC. Looking at the Australian one or something like the knightsports but that will be one of the last things I do performance wise.

mr2peak

No extra capabilities. FC Tweak is run on a laptop to help tune, it’s not an active part of the process. You can run the PFC through an android head unit though.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

Seen the haltech eat plenty of motors, for all the talk about safegaurds and bells and whistles.

Pete_89T2

iTrader: (4)

Yup, a bad tune, poorly planned & executed modifications and/or foolish expectations will do that every time, doesn't matter what ECU box you're running. And all the safeguards and engine protection features of a modern ECU won't help if they are not enabled or configured correctly.

boostin13b

Totally agree. I've never had a failure on any of my tunes (knock on wood.) Safeties are only as good as the tuner, products and sensors associated with them. The wife's S14 we built almost 20 years ago and is still running AEM V1 with no safeties built in and 90% of the miles have been VERY hard since its just her race/toy car. I tend to over build and tune very conservatively and my vision for the FD isn't to push the limits of anything aside from my driving skill in an autox.

boostin13b

Great to know, I'll be looking into this soon.

twinturborx7pete

iTrader: (3)

I run PowerFC with Tweak and it has been flawless. All tuning is really based on how good your tune is. I've started tuning Haltechs now and have been finding a lot of faults with prior people's tunes. They have all the safety features in the world but they only work if properly set up. Additionally, the safeguards are not a guarantee to save your motor since a rotary is so knock limited/sensitive.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

BTW FC-Tweak has some stuff where it will do overboost/over-rev protection, basically pulling timing back if your boost goes wacky.

As stated, there is no bulletproof tune, especially with a rotary. Use good parts, keep up on maintenance, do repairs RIGHT, and you will have zero issues. My FD has NEVER left me stuck and I even drove it FOR WORK doing service calls for a while.

BTW, this thread is the Gold Standard on what you can do with a twin turbo car with a PFC -

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...added-1104322/

350hp to the ground, solid and quality. If you look at Banzai's web page they have car after car making this kind of power and it's simple, clean, and reliable. 350hp in an FD is an INSANELY fun and fast car and you aren't constantly worrying about breaking stuff.

Dale

boostin13b

That thread is the one I mentioned above and a great source of information. I totally agree with you. Before I moved to Florida I had a large single on my R1, oil pump failed and I was moving down here so I bought a running drivetrain out of a car that was being LS swapped and put the car back to almost stock. Ran the AEM V1 with Stock sequential setup with Downpipe, no cat and M2 twin tip catback and daily drove that for about a year and was so much happier driving it than when I was single. Which brings me to where I am at. Covid killed our fun as we used to AutoX and RallyX regularly but have not since 2020. I want a car that I can AutoX and give my wife a run for her money with her car, drive to DGRR or the Keys for the weekend and do it comfortably, reliably, be able to hold a conversation and do it without my eyes burning. One of the best "feeling" FD's I have ever been in was an almost stock car, basic mods like I described above tune by Steve Kahn and the transition was almost non-existent. If you didn't hear the transition the average person probably wouldn't have noticed it. I love the instant torque and flat powerband of a properly running sequential setup.

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

IIRC there isn’t emissions in Florida either so a programmable would let you remove half of the vacuum complexity and weight while letting the car breath a bit better…all while avoiding the CEL’s. A PFC is probably the least expensive way to do that.

FWIW I’m much older and learning to be a tuner is way too much for my small brain. So maybe I just don’t know what I’m missing but…
My mods are in my signature (+ DP, hi-flow cat and RB dual tip) and the car has been on a modified base map for probably the last 15 years and 60k miles with zero issues. Decent mileage, easy starts, good idle and plug life. A guess back then by a knowledgeable and experienced former member AND later pretty much confirmed by Banzai’s thread was 300 whp.

zli944

iTrader: (2)

Had a similar internal debate about trying to source Haltech or something newer for more "modern" technology. Can't remember all the research but it was pretty nebulous (to me personally), things like injector resolution and what not.

The one feature I did really want was the ability to tune for 50/50 meth AI. Of course, you can tune for it still on the PFC but because there is no integration with the AI kits (such as flow sensors, etc.) you now have a single point of failure. If the nozzle gets blocked, becomes loose, or the pump fails and you make a pull, could be the end right there.
That being said, doesn't seem like meth AI is necessary for a street driven car.
Even for a HPDE car, it's seems like a nice to have, not a necessity. Though I will say, the car was significantly down on power as ambient got hotter and everything started heat soaking (even with distilled water AI). So if you're competing in time attack or in wheel to wheel, I imagine it'd be a necessary feature for peak performance. Otherwise, just accept the additional delta on the laptimes or limit the HPDE to cooler seasons I guess.

boostin13b

The water/water injection wouldn't be something to rely on. Just for added benefits. Car will be tuned and molded to "safely" run without it so it would not be a risk if the system were to fail. The cleaning benefits of it alone are enough to sell me on it, especially on a rotary. Every engine I've torn down on vehicles running water injection have been crazy clean. 2jz, sr20, VK, LS, 13b you name it. Heads and valves stay clean. No hot spots in the combustion chambers or rotor faces etc.

Also forgot to mention conversion to Evan's Coolant which I've successfully been running for 20+ years in most of my vehicles.