Pennzoil for premix?
03-17-16, 12:51 AM
#1
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Pennzoil for premix?
Just a quick and simple question I'm new to the premix and did the research just seeing if this Pennzoil 2 cycle is the right stuff to use?? Thanks
03-17-16, 05:01 AM
#2
What's the flash point? I would argue the higher the flash point the better so that the premix actually lubricates appropriately and doesn't just burn shortly after entering the engine. It is probably also important to keep in mind that these flash points have nothing to do with your water temperature readings as the temperature inside the combustion chamber is quite a lot hotter and therefore the Castrol Power 1 Racing 2T that I have historically been using would appear to be useless once the car is warmed up.
Flash Points
1. Exol Optima Racing 2T - 140°C
2. Idemitsu Racing Synthetic Blend Premix for rotary engines - 126°C
2. Motul 710 2T - > 100°C
3. Castrol Power 1 Racing 2T - 73°C
However, in the marketing materials at least the Idemitsu has been specifically created for rotary engines although I'm unsure if there is anything chemically different in the Idemitsu compared to other 2T oils that plays better with the chrome housings and apex seals.
Flash Points
1. Exol Optima Racing 2T - 140°C
2. Idemitsu Racing Synthetic Blend Premix for rotary engines - 126°C
2. Motul 710 2T - > 100°C
3. Castrol Power 1 Racing 2T - 73°C
However, in the marketing materials at least the Idemitsu has been specifically created for rotary engines although I'm unsure if there is anything chemically different in the Idemitsu compared to other 2T oils that plays better with the chrome housings and apex seals.
03-17-16, 05:28 AM
#3
^ good info. You made me look up what I'm using.
https://www.motul.com/system/product...pdf?1362490748
I'm wondering what the flash point of typical good quality mineral based engine oil is for those with omp.
https://www.motul.com/system/product...pdf?1362490748
I'm wondering what the flash point of typical good quality mineral based engine oil is for those with omp.
03-17-16, 05:35 AM
#4
Much higher.
I use Shell Helix HX7 10W-40 semi-synthetic and it's flash point is 220° C. Their mineral HX5 15W-40 is 241° C but I use the semi-synthetic simply because it's more readily available in the UK and it burns a bit cleaner and has other advantages I guess. Plus, 15w is a bit heavy in the colder UK climate for startup.
HX5 spec sheet - http://www.cnergyasiapac.com/assets/...-B3-en-TDS.pdf
HX7 spec sheet - http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/shell...10w-40-TDS.pdf
I used Fuchs Titan MC 10w-40 semi-synthetic once but it was black mush after 1,500 miles whereas the Shell stuff still looks clean when I change the oil at 1,500-2,000 miles.
I use Shell Helix HX7 10W-40 semi-synthetic and it's flash point is 220° C. Their mineral HX5 15W-40 is 241° C but I use the semi-synthetic simply because it's more readily available in the UK and it burns a bit cleaner and has other advantages I guess. Plus, 15w is a bit heavy in the colder UK climate for startup.
HX5 spec sheet - http://www.cnergyasiapac.com/assets/...-B3-en-TDS.pdf
HX7 spec sheet - http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/shell...10w-40-TDS.pdf
I used Fuchs Titan MC 10w-40 semi-synthetic once but it was black mush after 1,500 miles whereas the Shell stuff still looks clean when I change the oil at 1,500-2,000 miles.
03-17-16, 05:37 AM
#5
Keep in mind there is more to it than just flash points such as kinematic viscosities, density, etc. but I don't understand that very much and a good 2T premix will always burn cleaner and leave less deposits than regular oil (although regular obviously doesn't hurt since that is the default design). I premix when I go to the track but otherwise I still have the stock OMP doing it's job.
03-17-16, 08:04 AM
#6
Just a quick and simple question I'm new to the premix and did the research just seeing if this Pennzoil 2 cycle is the right stuff to use?? Thanks
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03-17-16, 05:01 PM
#10
Totally agree with you, but flash point is one of the only things I understand...kind of ;-P
I'm of the opinion that the stock OMP is fine for 99% of driving. I personally only premix when I'm at the track.
I'm of the opinion that the stock OMP is fine for 99% of driving. I personally only premix when I'm at the track.
03-17-16, 07:15 PM
#12
cant believe you took that picture. did you add it to the 'how do you add premix' thread??? haha
if it reads TCW3 , it will be fine. definitely won't hurt. i suppose the flash point thing makes sense. can't go wrong with idemitsu, but arms+legs are in short supply these days. penzoil seems fine
if it reads TCW3 , it will be fine. definitely won't hurt. i suppose the flash point thing makes sense. can't go wrong with idemitsu, but arms+legs are in short supply these days. penzoil seems fine
03-17-16, 07:27 PM
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cant believe you took that picture. did you add it to the 'how do you add premix' thread??? haha if it reads TCW3 , it will be fine. definitely won't hurt. i suppose the flash point thing makes sense. can't go wrong with idemitsu, but arms+legs are in short supply these days. penzoil seems fine
Awesome! Thank you!!
03-18-16, 05:35 PM
#16
+1 on getting a case from mazdatrix. A case will last you over a year. One bottle is about 4 fill ups, 12 bottles in a case, 17MPG; a case is good for 13k miles. Nothing wrong with getting a premix specifically formulated for your application as well.
Matt
Matt
03-24-16, 06:52 PM
#18
Old Rotary Dog
These is no question that Idemitsu is The Good Stuff. Having said that I will note that I run the Pennzoil Marine 2-cycle oil in the track FC. It's the semi-synthetic blend. I still have the OMP in the car, but the way I see it's cheap insurance considering the car has lived in between 5-8k RPM for most of the last 10 years. I pick up a gallon or so at the WalMart once a year. :-)
No detrimental effects that I have seen to date (knock on wood).
-b
No detrimental effects that I have seen to date (knock on wood).
-b
03-25-16, 09:05 AM
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What's the flash point? I would argue the higher the flash point the better so that the premix actually lubricates appropriately and doesn't just burn shortly after entering the engine. It is probably also important to keep in mind that these flash points have nothing to do with your water temperature readings as the temperature inside the combustion chamber is quite a lot hotter and therefore the Castrol Power 1 Racing 2T that I have historically been using would appear to be useless once the car is warmed up.
Flash Points
1. Exol Optima Racing 2T - 140°C
2. Idemitsu Racing Synthetic Blend Premix for rotary engines - 126°C
2. Motul 710 2T - > 100°C
3. Castrol Power 1 Racing 2T - 73°C
However, in the marketing materials at least the Idemitsu has been specifically created for rotary engines although I'm unsure if there is anything chemically different in the Idemitsu compared to other 2T oils that plays better with the chrome housings and apex seals.
Flash Points
1. Exol Optima Racing 2T - 140°C
2. Idemitsu Racing Synthetic Blend Premix for rotary engines - 126°C
2. Motul 710 2T - > 100°C
3. Castrol Power 1 Racing 2T - 73°C
However, in the marketing materials at least the Idemitsu has been specifically created for rotary engines although I'm unsure if there is anything chemically different in the Idemitsu compared to other 2T oils that plays better with the chrome housings and apex seals.
I have been trying to make sense of all this take about the 2 cycle oils and flash point argument. I am just trying to wrap my head around it and make sense of it all.
From what I can think of from common sense is that the gasoline and oil gets shot into the oil chamber. the gas turns from a liquid to gas and the oil drops out of the gas and coats the internal components during either intake and combustion stroke/spin of the rotary. the oil is all over the engine now. At some point the oil gets moved around by the engine moving on the seals, but this oil at some point will need to get burned up. A higher flash point is tougher to burn than a lower flash point. so obviously how hard the engine is working and how fast the engine spins has to have an effect on its ability to burn the oil off.
so from what I have researched is that AFR's are important, running water/meth effects this, and usage of the engine (high or low rpms) effects how well the engine burns the oil off and what oil is needed.
It seems to me that higher flash point oils would be needed for high rpm racing use, and these oils are best used when the engine runs hotter (no water injection, etc). If your car is a street car and you run lower boost and water injection it seems lower flash point oils would probably be better.
You also then have the JASO rating of the oils.
I would think for a street car that a JASO FD rated oil with a low flash point (not too much high rpm wringing out of the engine) is preferred over a high flash point racing oil. especially if the person is running water injection.
I was running redline synthetic race oil with a high flash point when I didn't run water injection. recently I switched to a JASO FD Motul 710 2T since I inject (OMP) and pre-mix and want max protection....I also don't run super high rpms all the time. This has a lower flash point and I think is better suited for how I use the car. I also run water/meth injection. The flash point on Motul 710 2T is 88C. I see Barry on this site runs the Quicksilver outboard 2T in his with water injection on a street car and inside his engine looked beautiful. That flash point of Quicksilver 2T oil is 81-92C.
These oils burn better at lower rpms than high rpms. I don't know if I would rate oils just based off the flash point of them. I think a better rating would be JASO FC or FD oils and then pick one based off your use and driving habits. I wanted an oil that was JASO FD certified, could be injected or pre-mixed, was affordable, and burns off with both high and low rpm use, with the majority of it being low rpm use. I also run water injection.....so high rpms should run a little cooler.
03-25-16, 09:14 AM
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for your reading pleasure.
In Japan, engine manufacturers have developed a series of strenuous engine tests that can identify poor quality oils if they don’t measure up in performance. They tested over 250 samples of two-stroke oils worldwide and used the survey results to establish these engine tests. This became the JASO classification system. (Japanese automobile standards organization).
The tests include a detergency test, lubricity test, initial torque test, exhaust smoke test and exhaust blocking test. These tests have a much closer connection to actual snowmobile engine applications compared to TC-W3 tests which are all conducted on raw-water cooled outboard engines. And for the first time ever, an oil can fail the test if it smokes too much!
The detergency test evaluates the oil’s ability to maintain the cleanliness of critical engine parts, including exhaust power valves. This is very important on power valve equipped Rotax, Yamaha and Polaris engines. The lubricity test measures two things. First, the engine is run with a load for 50 minutes then the cooling system is disconnected for ten minutes and the resulting drop in horsepower is recorded. This cycle is repeated several times and each drop in power is compared and it must not vary more than a specified amount or be more than a specified amount. Then the engine is run with increasingly leaner oil ratios: 60:1, 100:1 then 150:1. If no seizure occurs and power is maintained within a specified percentage, the oil passes. The initial torque test measures the engine’s startability when cold, an important consideration for 3-cylinder sleds.
The exhaust blocking and smoking tests are run by mixing the test oil at an over-rich 10:1 ratio and running it in a two-stroke portable generator. The exhaust is channeled into a chamber where a photo cell measures the light that can pass through the smoke. It sounds crude but it works! Finally, a real world test to measure exhaust smoke from two-stroke engines! The exhaust blocking test simply examines the pencil sized exhaust outlet for carbon blocking. At a 10:1 ratio, these tests are very hard to pass. The highest JASO rating is FC. Lower ratings are "FB" and "FA." An even higher "FD" rating could be seen in the future. Most TC-W3 oils will not pass any of these tests!
In Europe, European two-cycle engine manufacturers were simultaneously working on two-cycle oil tests to separate the cheap, poor quality oils from the top quality oils. They tested the JASO reference oils in European engines and their top reference oils in Japanese engines. They found that European two-stroke high performance engines needed an oil with a better detergency and higher temperature performance than the best JASO "FC" oils. In April, 1997, they published their ISO global standards for two-stroke oils with two quality level categories: ISO-L-EGB and ISO-L-EGC. The ISO-L-EGB aligns closely with JASO "FB" and the ISO-L-EGC aligns closely with JASO "FC" for minimum test standards. Then, they developed the "GD" detergency test to run hotter and longer (3 hours vs. 1 hour) than the JASO detergency test. Oils passing the new ISO quality level, ISO-L-EGD would be superior to any previous two-stroke oils available! Of course, it didn’t take long for oil manufacturers to develop and test oil formulations that pass this new quality test, and most of them involve using synthetic base oils. Running these tests is a very expensive and time consuming effort but in the end, a bottle of oil with one of these JASO FC/ISO- L-EGD certified ratings means that the oil meets the highest quality tests set by the engine manufacturer in Japan and Europe.
Polaris, had recognized the "all-in-one" advantages of TC-W3 two-stroke oil, and recommended the use of TC-W3 oils in their watercraft, quads and snowmobiles for several years, have recently taken Ski-Doo's position....don't use it! Basically, specially formulated snowmobile oils that pass JASO FC/ISO-L-EGD and do not follow NMMA outboard engine additive restrictions will provide much better protection for higher rpm applications (snowmobiles generally rev higher than 6,000 rpm) and still provide a superior lubricity and detergency than TC-W3 oils at the same cost with less smoke. So, use snowmobile oil in your snowmobile and outboard oil in your outboard engine.
In Japan, engine manufacturers have developed a series of strenuous engine tests that can identify poor quality oils if they don’t measure up in performance. They tested over 250 samples of two-stroke oils worldwide and used the survey results to establish these engine tests. This became the JASO classification system. (Japanese automobile standards organization).
The tests include a detergency test, lubricity test, initial torque test, exhaust smoke test and exhaust blocking test. These tests have a much closer connection to actual snowmobile engine applications compared to TC-W3 tests which are all conducted on raw-water cooled outboard engines. And for the first time ever, an oil can fail the test if it smokes too much!
The detergency test evaluates the oil’s ability to maintain the cleanliness of critical engine parts, including exhaust power valves. This is very important on power valve equipped Rotax, Yamaha and Polaris engines. The lubricity test measures two things. First, the engine is run with a load for 50 minutes then the cooling system is disconnected for ten minutes and the resulting drop in horsepower is recorded. This cycle is repeated several times and each drop in power is compared and it must not vary more than a specified amount or be more than a specified amount. Then the engine is run with increasingly leaner oil ratios: 60:1, 100:1 then 150:1. If no seizure occurs and power is maintained within a specified percentage, the oil passes. The initial torque test measures the engine’s startability when cold, an important consideration for 3-cylinder sleds.
The exhaust blocking and smoking tests are run by mixing the test oil at an over-rich 10:1 ratio and running it in a two-stroke portable generator. The exhaust is channeled into a chamber where a photo cell measures the light that can pass through the smoke. It sounds crude but it works! Finally, a real world test to measure exhaust smoke from two-stroke engines! The exhaust blocking test simply examines the pencil sized exhaust outlet for carbon blocking. At a 10:1 ratio, these tests are very hard to pass. The highest JASO rating is FC. Lower ratings are "FB" and "FA." An even higher "FD" rating could be seen in the future. Most TC-W3 oils will not pass any of these tests!
In Europe, European two-cycle engine manufacturers were simultaneously working on two-cycle oil tests to separate the cheap, poor quality oils from the top quality oils. They tested the JASO reference oils in European engines and their top reference oils in Japanese engines. They found that European two-stroke high performance engines needed an oil with a better detergency and higher temperature performance than the best JASO "FC" oils. In April, 1997, they published their ISO global standards for two-stroke oils with two quality level categories: ISO-L-EGB and ISO-L-EGC. The ISO-L-EGB aligns closely with JASO "FB" and the ISO-L-EGC aligns closely with JASO "FC" for minimum test standards. Then, they developed the "GD" detergency test to run hotter and longer (3 hours vs. 1 hour) than the JASO detergency test. Oils passing the new ISO quality level, ISO-L-EGD would be superior to any previous two-stroke oils available! Of course, it didn’t take long for oil manufacturers to develop and test oil formulations that pass this new quality test, and most of them involve using synthetic base oils. Running these tests is a very expensive and time consuming effort but in the end, a bottle of oil with one of these JASO FC/ISO- L-EGD certified ratings means that the oil meets the highest quality tests set by the engine manufacturer in Japan and Europe.
Polaris, had recognized the "all-in-one" advantages of TC-W3 two-stroke oil, and recommended the use of TC-W3 oils in their watercraft, quads and snowmobiles for several years, have recently taken Ski-Doo's position....don't use it! Basically, specially formulated snowmobile oils that pass JASO FC/ISO-L-EGD and do not follow NMMA outboard engine additive restrictions will provide much better protection for higher rpm applications (snowmobiles generally rev higher than 6,000 rpm) and still provide a superior lubricity and detergency than TC-W3 oils at the same cost with less smoke. So, use snowmobile oil in your snowmobile and outboard oil in your outboard engine.
03-25-16, 05:27 PM
#21
I have been trying to make sense of all this take about the 2 cycle oils and flash point argument. I am just trying to wrap my head around it and make sense of it all.
From what I can think of from common sense is that the gasoline and oil gets shot into the oil chamber. the gas turns from a liquid to gas and the oil drops out of the gas and coats the internal components during either intake and combustion stroke/spin of the rotary. the oil is all over the engine now. At some point the oil gets moved around by the engine moving on the seals, but this oil at some point will need to get burned up. A higher flash point is tougher to burn than a lower flash point. so obviously how hard the engine is working and how fast the engine spins has to have an effect on its ability to burn the oil off.
so from what I have researched is that AFR's are important, running water/meth effects this, and usage of the engine (high or low rpms) effects how well the engine burns the oil off and what oil is needed.
It seems to me that higher flash point oils would be needed for high rpm racing use, and these oils are best used when the engine runs hotter (no water injection, etc). If your car is a street car and you run lower boost and water injection it seems lower flash point oils would probably be better.
You also then have the JASO rating of the oils.
I would think for a street car that a JASO FD rated oil with a low flash point (not too much high rpm wringing out of the engine) is preferred over a high flash point racing oil. especially if the person is running water injection.
I was running redline synthetic race oil with a high flash point when I didn't run water injection. recently I switched to a JASO FD Motul 710 2T since I inject (OMP) and pre-mix and want max protection....I also don't run super high rpms all the time. This has a lower flash point and I think is better suited for how I use the car. I also run water/meth injection. The flash point on Motul 710 2T is 88C. I see Barry on this site runs the Quicksilver outboard 2T in his with water injection on a street car and inside his engine looked beautiful. That flash point of Quicksilver 2T oil is 81-92C.
These oils burn better at lower rpms than high rpms. I don't know if I would rate oils just based off the flash point of them. I think a better rating would be JASO FC or FD oils and then pick one based off your use and driving habits. I wanted an oil that was JASO FD certified, could be injected or pre-mixed, was affordable, and burns off with both high and low rpm use, with the majority of it being low rpm use. I also run water injection.....so high rpms should run a little cooler.
From what I can think of from common sense is that the gasoline and oil gets shot into the oil chamber. the gas turns from a liquid to gas and the oil drops out of the gas and coats the internal components during either intake and combustion stroke/spin of the rotary. the oil is all over the engine now. At some point the oil gets moved around by the engine moving on the seals, but this oil at some point will need to get burned up. A higher flash point is tougher to burn than a lower flash point. so obviously how hard the engine is working and how fast the engine spins has to have an effect on its ability to burn the oil off.
so from what I have researched is that AFR's are important, running water/meth effects this, and usage of the engine (high or low rpms) effects how well the engine burns the oil off and what oil is needed.
It seems to me that higher flash point oils would be needed for high rpm racing use, and these oils are best used when the engine runs hotter (no water injection, etc). If your car is a street car and you run lower boost and water injection it seems lower flash point oils would probably be better.
You also then have the JASO rating of the oils.
I would think for a street car that a JASO FD rated oil with a low flash point (not too much high rpm wringing out of the engine) is preferred over a high flash point racing oil. especially if the person is running water injection.
I was running redline synthetic race oil with a high flash point when I didn't run water injection. recently I switched to a JASO FD Motul 710 2T since I inject (OMP) and pre-mix and want max protection....I also don't run super high rpms all the time. This has a lower flash point and I think is better suited for how I use the car. I also run water/meth injection. The flash point on Motul 710 2T is 88C. I see Barry on this site runs the Quicksilver outboard 2T in his with water injection on a street car and inside his engine looked beautiful. That flash point of Quicksilver 2T oil is 81-92C.
These oils burn better at lower rpms than high rpms. I don't know if I would rate oils just based off the flash point of them. I think a better rating would be JASO FC or FD oils and then pick one based off your use and driving habits. I wanted an oil that was JASO FD certified, could be injected or pre-mixed, was affordable, and burns off with both high and low rpm use, with the majority of it being low rpm use. I also run water injection.....so high rpms should run a little cooler.
Personally, I don't premix for street driving and only ever premix when I do a track day. In the past I have run Castrol Power 1 Racing 2T for not knowing any better but lately I've switched to Idemitsu since it is about the same price here in the UK for either. I add between 200-300ml of premix to a near empty tank of gas just prior to taking the car on track.
03-25-16, 07:40 PM
#22
I also run WI and a stock OMP, but also premix at a guesstimation rate of .5 oz. per gallon. Usually that's Penzoil or whatever name-brand TCW3 2-cycle is on sale. With the WI and checking the spark plugs occasionally, I don't worry about carbon. And with both OMP and pre-mix, I think lubrication is close to optimized.
I understand we're all enthusiasts here... prone to near-**** maintenance, attention and generalized money-pissing on our cars. And if our engines typically ran a couple hundred thousand miles and/or the other internals like coolant seals had more longevity, I might pay closer attention to the "special" premix and JASO ratings. Unfortunately these engines aren't like that. So IMHO...I still think the subject is being over-thought alittle. My .02.
I understand we're all enthusiasts here... prone to near-**** maintenance, attention and generalized money-pissing on our cars. And if our engines typically ran a couple hundred thousand miles and/or the other internals like coolant seals had more longevity, I might pay closer attention to the "special" premix and JASO ratings. Unfortunately these engines aren't like that. So IMHO...I still think the subject is being over-thought alittle. My .02.
03-25-16, 08:56 PM
#23
Rotary Enthusiast
We're all looking for a simple magic bullet solution... I don't premix (Mobil 1 10W30), but I might try premixing Idemitsu at my next track day.
I noticed the Mazdatrix listing of Idemitsu Synthetic cautions against using it with ethanol fuels. It's hard to tell for sure if there will be ethanol in the mix at the pumps here.
I noticed the Mazdatrix listing of Idemitsu Synthetic cautions against using it with ethanol fuels. It's hard to tell for sure if there will be ethanol in the mix at the pumps here.
Last edited by HiWire; 03-25-16 at 09:01 PM.
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