serbRX7

iTrader: (9)

i found this

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/oil_in...p_adaptors.htm


https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=810299


and some threads where guys did this on older rx7's 1st gen mostly

i am interested in doing this on FD after i rebuild my engine

running a OMP with dedicated oil tank and two-stroke oil instead of conventional motor oil or synthetic

just wanna hear your thoughts on this and if anyone has done this on FD

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Yes it's been done by several FD owners:

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/ras-oil-injector-pump-adapter-please-post-pics-how-tos-your-setup-628571/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/anyone-using-rotary-aviation-mop-adaptor-534079/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/location-ra-adapter-2-cycle-oil-resevoir-show-me-pics-583688/

alexdimen

iTrader: (13)

I wanted to do the same thing. You should be aware that the RA OMP adapter will not fit with the stock twins. I know it will fit if you hack up the OMP, but frankly I don't feel comfortable doing that.

What I ended up doing is test the omp output and then supplemental premix 1oz/gal to keep it well lubed, clean and for added insurance.

Even with single turbo and the RA adapter, I feel that the additional 2-stroke in the gasoline can only help with the dispersal of lubricant to all points of contact.

Supernaut

iTrader: (83)

IRP did it for my car. The install is 10x easier with a 99 spec omp. No hacking necessary. I'm also running on stock twins. Only problem is that an up spec'd OMP is pricey. Alex is right though, ultimately, you want to do this and put premix in your gas as well.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Talk about hassle. Adding 2 stroke to two different things won't save your engine from a busted coolant hose/overheat, a mediocre tune, overboosting, or a fuel system failure. And those reasons account for the vast majority of engine failures on modified cars. The whole premix tank is one of those things that on paper is a good idea--there's no arguing that direct delivery of 2 stroke is superior to regular old motor oil. On a day-to-day basis though the only thing you'll notice is that you've got one more BS "rotary engine ritual" to deal with/explain to people.

You can install 20 anti virus programs but if you click the wrong thing in the end you'll still end up having to reinstall windows.

serbRX7

iTrader: (9)

thanks for the links

serbRX7

iTrader: (9)

main reason i am doing this is because you get much less carbon build up on rotors and apex seals... and i do not mind extra lil step of adding 2 stroke oil...


as far as adding 2 stroke oil to fuel at the same time.... i do not think thats necessary and i do not plan on doing that...

if more oil is needed i will just turn up OMP rate


i am single turbo so install shouldn't be that hard i got alot of room to work with

Supernaut

iTrader: (83)

You really think lowering carbon build up and more lubrication is a trivial thing? I think this is a more of a longevity fix but just because death by carbon build up doesn't happen immediately doesn't mean it should be ignored. I know in my situation, it pays to keep the engine around as long as possible. I agree with you saying that adding 2 stroke in the gas is a hassle (I loathe doing it) but adding 2 stroke to a separate tank in the engine bay once in a while isn't a big deal.

Not the same thing man.

Also, hail to the Nick Tahoe's steak plate!

ACCR

" Supernaut "

I am also thinking to mod my OMP for 2 stroke oil.... I have 99 Rx7 so you didn't have any issues with installing the RA adapter plate. I know that there could be a fittment issue so I was thinking to mod my OMP... but know if there isn't any issue in 99 spec I would prefer RA adapter plate.... can you tell me something more about your case?

serbRX7

iTrader: (9)

i think the omp rate is 1/100 of fuel used. and i think that they also have it adjustable to run 1/140...

so i do not think i need to add 2 stroke oil to fuel at the same time... as most people premix 1/100 with OMP removed in race cars or some say they do 1/140 of fuel used...

if 2 stroke oil will lubricate as good as conventional oil...i do not see why i should be adding premix to fuel to...



here is what happens from unburned oil http://fdowners.com/showthread.php?t=2621

serbRX7

iTrader: (9)

i think only thing you might have fitment problem with

is oil return line you might have to rotate the flange

serbRX7

iTrader: (9)

plus adding to much oil to fuel and by OMP at same time defeats the purpose as it will increase carbon buildup and car will smoke

i think it might Chang octane rating

Supernaut

iTrader: (83)

Hopefully goodfellafd3s will drop in on this thread since he did do my install. From what I've been told, the 99 spec OMP makes the install very easy.

I always thought it also had to do with getting enough oil through the whole combustion cycle. Thats why premixing into the fuel is the best. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as the octane stuff go, from what I've seen posted before, the octane drop is insignificant.

MOBEONER

iTrader: (18)

I run stock OMP and water injection.
I add 1/2oz premix in the tank only when i push the engine for extra lubrication due the increase in HP.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Correct however, premixing is the ABSOLUTLY best way to lubricate the engine.



Or you could just add the .50-1.0 oz of oil for evey gallon and not worry about the OMP upgrade at all.

Let me fill you and everyone here in on a little something. The OMP doesn't SPRAY any oil into the combustion chamber. It only oozes in so the apex seal can squeegee it across the rotor housing. That's how Mazda has always designed it. Having owned and worked on all generations of Rx7s, I can assure you the OMP doesn't have the pressure to spray like that. That's all the OMP it's designed to do. For whatever reason everyone thinks it sprays in like a fuel injector. It does not do that. So it doesn't matter if your pumping in crank case oil, 2 cyl oil or even molasses, your not going to get any extra protection on the side plates or coat the rotor face (which it what's needed to stop carbon build-up). Now that's not to say that the conversion kit is worthless. It is and improvement because 2 cyl oil burns cleaner plus you have less carbon build up in the apex seal grooves however, nothing lubes the combustion chambers as well as pre-mixing does. It can damn near double the life of a rotary engine because when injected by the fuel injectors, the turbulence of the air flow distributes the film all over. OMP can never do this regardless of what you use as a lubricant. The oil film that's created all over the combustion chamber (especially the rotors) prevents carbon deposits from adhering to it. When carbon can't adhere, you have no build-up.

More:

Everyone also thinks it's because 2cyl burns cleaner and that's why it fights carbon better. Yes to a point but there's more going on with a rotary. I have a rotor that's been sitting on my bench for the past 2 yrs that still has the oil film on it from premix. To this day, you can take your finger and wipe the surface clean. My other damaged non premixed rotors are bone dry and full of black carbon. The sprayed oil film that reaches the rotor face is what's actually keeping the carbon away. A dry rotor is what's a breeding ground for carbon build-up.

serbRX7

iTrader: (9)

and i know that OMP dos not spray like injectors...but maybe it should.... we should take that up with Mazda

ok so best thing is blocking off OMP and premixing in fuel...i know that...

-but then i would be obsessed on getting it perfect every time...and that wouldn't work well
on trips as i like to drive my car allot....most likely be driving around with lab beaker



so i would like to have my OMP do its job...just asking if i will get me same protection with premix from dedicated tank as i am getting now from conventional oil from oil pan...

is anyone doing this without adding additional premix to fuel

also i might be running e85 on new setup

arghx

iTrader: (3)

When modified rotary engines frequently die from catastrophic failures, and the link between slow carbon buildup and catastrophic failures is tenuous--yes. It's trivial on cars most people drive 3000-8000 miles a year. I'm sure somebody somewhere on the internet has had a catastrophic engine failure due to carbon buildup over time. Will that someone be you? Probably not.

The hassle, which is something you have to deal with on a daily basis, far outweighs longevity benefits which cannot possibly be measured directly.

Overboost, overheating, fuel system failures, and tuning problems due to weather changes cause the vast majority of engine failures. Focus on solving those problems. Premix tanks aren't a complete waste but it's such a low priority. I've had Rx-7's for over 6 years, and the longer you own these cars the more these "rotary engine rituals" make you feel like you are about to launch a space ship every time you want to take the car out for an afternoon.

Premix tanks aren't "bad" but they will not prevent your engine from blowing up. Focus on the problems that are guaranteed to blow your motor.

Supernaut

iTrader: (83)

I'm not going to disagree with the fact there are more important problems to watch out for and there are more important mods to do first. I will disagree with saying a mod that helps clear up carbon build up is trivial because it may or may not happen in the future. Will my engine fail due to carbon build up? Maybe not. Is that good enough for me? Nope. What you may consider a hassle may not be a hassle to someone else (hardly daily btw but I do hate premixing). Premixing only costs you a little bit of time at some gas refills and $5/quart for a high grade 2 stroke oil. To some people, that is cheap for some peace of mind and nooow I have to go to bed and wake up early to pick up my copy of GT5 in the morning.

rotarypower101

iTrader: (1)

There is no arguing his points they are correct and practical.
But once you finish ironing out the real issues and important bugs and are confident that the bigger issues are out of the way, indulge your desires to make a better mouse trap.

I wanted a trouble free system with little/no maintenance, hence the very large tank,and I expect my vehicle to be able to be used by others should the need arise. Short of building a user manual with strange procedures and voodoo "rotary engine rituals"(such a good way to describe it! ) and a video user training course.

I also wired in a level sensor to the aux 2 stroke oil tank that utilizes the low coolant sensor buzzer to inform of low oil.
One of the simplest to implement features,yet the one I am most proud of devising when implementing my system.

ttmott

iTrader: (1)

Here is some work I did on understanding the metering pump:
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...t=declassified

Note the oil flows - they are miniscule and would not be a significant contributor to carbon build up. The OMP is a positive displacement pump that will supply a precise amount of oil to the rotor housing with quantity based upon engine load. See this thread where I break down how the ECM demands the oil quantity.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...&highlight=omp
Now if you might be running a PFC you could get carried away by setting the oil demand up too high and then that would be a problem with carbon build up.
For stock or slightly modified engines (ie. chamber pressures are within reason) there is little need to mess with a properly operating OMP using engine oil. On the other hand if your chamber pressures are high and putting big demands on the apex seals you may desire stepping up to a 2 stroke oil supplement. Arghx is right on target stating that there are more important reliability things that money can be spent on......

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Think about what your saying, if it sprayed like that, think about how large the oil sump would have to be just to have enough oil capacity to feed spraying OMP injectors. Mazda designed it well enough for any engine to last over 100,000. Personally, I'm getting ready to rig up a gas tank feed system.




Too much paranoya my friend. I have a 91 NA vert that I rebuilt in 2005 that has only been premixed. OMP not working is what killed the engine. Anyways this engine has 40k on the rebuild. About 7 tank fulls of gas during that time period, I never even premixed because I was either out or just didn't care that day. I parked the car and haven't driven it since May last year. I put a battery on it this past May and it fired right up. My 5th and 6th aux ports still move freely. Now what's the moral of this storey? Premixing works (which you already knew that) however, it keeps working without newly added oil because the fuel system becomes saturated with it. Being precise with your measuments isn't important as you think. My real world experience proves that.

Just some food for thought. Good luck on your project!

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Oops!

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Very very true however the build-up/failure problems are more related to NA rotarys. But yea, turbo rotary's will more than likely die of something else not related to engine internal lubing.


To the OP. The OMP on the FD is far superior to the previous models in terms of performance and reliability. My original Fd engine lasted over 108k until I blew it form over boosting. I used premix maybe once or twice so it relied heavily on the factory OMP. The non damaged housing was still in such great shape that I was able to use it in another rebuild. So ask yourself? Do you really wanna waste your time changing a set-up when your really gonna blow the engine for some other reason? That I can promise you!

t-von

iTrader: (8)

WOW now this is how it should be done That is a nice set-up! How long can you go between 2cyl fill-ups? Seeling this makes me wanna fab something similar for my 20b just for the hell of it. I see no reason why Mazda couldn't engineer a similar set-up on future rotarys. I mean damn, it's not like they couldn't add another warning light on the cluster for low 2cyl oil and add another page in the owners manual. I bet you could go months on that set-up. Rx8 owners have to check their oil levels far more often than we Fd guys did.

serbRX7

iTrader: (9)

thanks for the info

yea i am using PFC

this is not significant amount of money for the project 125$... another thing is i am planing this setup for my fresh rebuilt engine with fresh OMP and injectors...

i might be running full synthetic and i do not want it going into combustion chamber...

i do not have any other problems to be concerned about...i all ready spent the money on everything else...