wilkinb

Hi all,
I don’t want to drag up all the Synthetic vs Mineral oil argument, but I thought I would share this with you.

I had read through several sites re synthetic oils in rotaries and had basically decided to go with synthetic oil. So I dropped Redline an email asking for their recommendation (had been using Redline in a GT-R in the past and liked it). Basically they said it’s all good for the Rx7 (2002 RS) as the issue was a non clean burn / carbon build up and that Redline oils didn’t have this issue.

So my mind was made up.

Then I got to my local Rotary workshop to get my first service (car only had 1000km on it ).

After talking to the guys there we went for the Redline oil in the gearbox and diff, but they recommended against synthetic oils due to the following notice from Mazda.


(may need to make sure its full size to read it)

So I have gone for Mobil XHP+ at the moment, but was wondering if ay one had seen the info about oil seals before etc.

I will forward it to Redline to se if they reply as well.

21K95RX7

yea and mazda was so good at servicing the FD

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

That bulletin is new to me. (Interesting, that it's titled "RX-8" and dated 2003, but addresses RX-7 engines).

I have been using synthetic like many, many others and will continue to do so. Even if the bulletin is technically true, the low numbers of engines failing at the oil control seals is enough evidence for me.

Dave

21K95RX7

im with dave, my engine has responded very well to synthetic oil since i put it in.

josh

yuichiror

iTrader: (1)

Very weird. That alone would make me doubt the authenticity/accuracy of the bulletin... How long were FD's sold in Australia?

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Up until 2002.

I've torn down many engine that ran on synthetic and the oil control o-rings looked fine. If there is a problem, perhaps it is one that happens over a long period of time, say 100,000 miles? If that is the case, we FD owners don't have anything to worry about

wilkinb

Is Aus we got the Rx7 up to 98, after that they are "grey imports" from Japan like mine.

The second page goes on to talk about the Rx8, saying its ok with Synthetic oil. The story is it was sent out because people started to ask a lot once the rx8 had synthetic oils as ok to use.

I guess the synth vs mineral is never going to be an easy one, but by the sound of it your all fairly happy to use it

With blanket statements like the fax from Mazda I always wonder how much it is just to cover them, i.e. not all synthetic oils are the same... so do they just say it to be safe.

O well i guess I have a few km's now before I make the call.

Thanks for the comments guys.

yuichiror

iTrader: (1)

Thanks!

Odd, so the Renesis engines use different oil seals that's ok with syns?? Wonder if they can be used in our engines or if it's even worth the effort....

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Sorry for the misinformation. 2002 last year for japan, I thought for oz as well.

Regardless, I have never heard of synth oil damaging any internals on the 13B-REW.

Chadwick

iTrader: (12)

I thought I would pass on what I found recently while rebuilding two motors. The first motor I bought from a guy with low compression on the rear rotor. According to him it was a recent rebuild with 5k miles. From the looks of it, I would agree that it had no more then 5k miles. From what I could tell the rebuild was done with new Rotors and Rotor housings which were still pristine when disassembled. The Front, intermediate and rear housings were reused and based on their wear had about 60-80k miles on them. There was a fair about of carbon build up on the rotors for such a short time running. Took several trips to the parts washer to get them clean. Reason for the low compression was 2 stuck side seals on the rear rotor. The rear rotor had a slight scuff near a corner seal where it had made contact with the side housing, jamming the side seal in the process. By the build of the motor (3 window race bearings, dowel pinned, oil mods, water jacket mods and porting) that it was build for someone shooting for the 500hp+ range. I mic’ed all the bearings and eccentric shaft and all of the measurements are on the low (tight) side of being in spec. My guess is that it had a pretty sever detonation that cause the brief but compression ending contact with the side housing most likely cause by the excessive carbon buildup. Although another possibility is flex in the eccentric shaft, but I have never seen first hand its effects but I have heard a bunch of rumors .

The second motor was my personal original motor from a 93 with 66,xxx miles on it. Last time it was dyno’ed she put down 313 rwhp. I had to pull the motor because it started showing signs of a water seal failure. Other than that she was running strong. Her modifications are in my signature below. Because of the class I race her in, I was not allowed to change out the computer so she ran with a stock computer and some not so fancy tricks to make sure she had enough fuel. Lets just say at idle she was so rich it would make your eyes burn if you were standing to close . What I was surprised to find when I opened up the motor was almost zero wear on any of the bearings, side housings or rotor housings. When I say almost zero, I’m not joking, the highest measurement I got off of any of the groves on side housing faces was less than .0005in. The coolest thing was how thin the carbon build up was on the Rotors. They looked like they were sprayed with a thin coat of flat black paint. It only took me about 10 minutes to clean off the carbon.

So what is the point you ask. I have concluded that the first engine was running a 2 stroke premix as the oil metering pump had been replaced with some after market part that I still don’t know what it does. Now I on the other hand run Mobil 1 20w50 and have since I bought my 7 back in 96. The last 4000 miles on my car have been about as hard as you can get. To give you an idea, I get about 1.3 miles to the gallon and am either full throttle or full brake. Yet the motor shows almost no signs of wear and there was very little carbon or deposits on the rotors. Like most of you I have always heard the “no synthetic oils in a rotory”, but choose not to believe it. Everything I had read away from the rotary community has said that synthetic motor oils burn as clean if not cleaner than regular oil and we all know how it reduces wear. Well I now I can say from my own experience that Mobil 1 is not only clean burning in a rotory engine, but will significantly reduce wear.

Hope this helps,
Dan

Larz

The Mazda service department has proven their inability to service the rotary in the past. I'm not inclined to believe a word they say..........ever.

RICE RACING

^ Agreed,

I have used Mobil 1 synthetic for 8+years now in many engines (yes I build them too) and its the best secret out there I dont care to convince people anymore, you can choose whatever the hell you want to run :P

21K95RX7

hey dan do i see a mobil sponsorship sticker on your car? lol jk. i switched to mobil syn my last change, but my next change im gonna get some royal purple.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

I been running mobile 1 on my engines for the past 4 years. My last engine I blew, I took it apart and saw quite a bit of carbon build up. I was surprise by this in the beginning (I think I posted this before). But after consulting and talking to few, I drove an engine with blown coolant seal from Nashville to Bham. During this time, my temp was extremely high, oil metering was pumping more oil, and I was barely going over 60mph for 200+ miles.

One thing I was told by experienced veteran rotary guys (who's been around rotaries for 10+ years) is that I need to hit high rpm once or twice when I drive the car. Apprently, this will clean out the engine a bit and reduce carbon build up.

Chadwick

iTrader: (12)

I was sure I Photoshopped off those stickers .

Hmm, I need to contact their marketing department

bajaman

That is a really interesting Service Bulletin. For some reason, Mazda is STILL being very adamant against the use of synthetic in non-Renesis engines. Now, I too have always used either synthetic or synthetic blends as I believe them to be a "better" oil, as far as lubrication goes, especially at cold temperatures.
However, I am intrigued by this continuing stance of no synthetic by Mazda. Let's face it, the Japanese are goddamned **** about **** like this....there simply HAD to be a reason for them to even investigate this oil control seal failure. I mean come on....there hasn't had to be an RX-7 warranty claim in years....lol!

Obviously the gist of the Bulletin was simply to confirm that synthetics are fine with Renesis engines, giving the Service Managers a tool to use when asked by curious RX-8 owners questioning the fact that synthetics are being used in their cars.

But it certainly does add fuel to the fire in the age-old synth vs. dino debate!

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

There is even a japanese synth created to run in the 787B-I run it in my FD. Here is some info and a link:

http://www.rx7.com/store/rx7/fdengine_maintenance.html

Never heard of Idemitsu oil? Don’t be too surprised. After 90 years, Idemitsu has just made itself available to the American public. Here are a few things you probably didn’t know:

• Largest Japanese oil manufacturer in the world.
• Exclusive supplier to all Japanese OEMs.
• Largest producer of custom blended oils.
• Supplier of custom competition blended oils for Mazda’s racing efforts.

What does this mean to us Rotarians? Now we can use the oils that is based on technology that helped Mazda win the 24 hours of LeMans. Nothing speaks better for oil’s effectiveness than the ability to survive that extreme punishment. We’ve tested this oil in both of our race cars. Our world famous RX7.COM “Stars and Stripes” championship winning car puts severe stresses on the engine bearings. We’ve never had any problems whatsoever with Idemitsu oils. Being turbocharged and nitrous-fed, there is no harder test for an oil. In addition, Ken Scheepers has relied on Idemitsu oils to keep his RX7.COM sponsored All-Motor engine together. Now that you know the name, buy a few bottles, your engine will thank you.

Viscosity recommendations:
- 10W30 for all-motor rotaries
- 20W50 for all turbo applications
- Premix is for all rotary applications

1QWIK7

iTrader: (33)

I think FD owners have alot of other problems to worry about than what oil goes into the engine.

Thats like saying, "i dont know what kind of underwear to wear to my job interview".

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

well, whatever oil you use, just make sure you change them often.

Joe Geiman

Amen.

I switched to Idemitsu 20-50 the last few oil changes.
They claim that it is specifically formulated for rotary engines.
That's why I decided to switch brands.
It's the only oil company to make this claim. They also make a rotary specific premix to add to your fuel.

The guys at AIM Tuning in Speedway, In are stocking dealers for Idemitsu.

It's not cheap, but how can you own an FD and be a cheapscate?

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Trust me, lots of guys try it

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

I for one will not pony up extra money for Idemitsu or Royal Purple. Mobil 1 works fine for me at $4.20/qt.

Auto aftermarket is a crazy industry loaded with hundreds upon thousands of mods, special parts, special fluids, etc and they all claim to do something - for a price. For me, the knee in the cost curve above which I see as a waste is lower than many people here. Call me ****, or call me annoying, but I see myself as a 'budget' FD owner. Just because that budget is much bigger than my other cars does not mean I don't control it.

If we always spent the extra money for the 'best', everyone would rebuild engines with all brand new parts, nobody would ever re-use an exhaust gasket, and we'd never use anything but race gas. Sure, these are extreme examples, but even the little stuff will add up pretty quickly.

Yes, oil is a very small part of the maintenance budget, and we should use good oil. And I know everyone here understands my point and follows that idea in their own way. But the statement gets thrown around enough it paints a picture of FD owners spending money like three blind mice with their wallets open. Or like Ferrari owners

</rant>

Dave