DaveW

With that choice, use the Ultra Gray. Next choice if gray is not available is ultra-black. Blue tends to usually be non-hardening stuff (easily removeable), good only in very low stress areas or with gaskets.

Also, many "gasket-maker" RTV's have very low adhesion, and will probably not work properly in this application. That is why the choice of sealant is so important.

Dave

Zebb

You can use Loctites liquid gasket. I can buy it in all the big auto-stores here in Sweden so you must have it in greece too. I dont know the name of the product (i can check tomorrow tho) but the tube is white and the silicone is blue. It works exactly as "the right stuff", which i have used before with the same result - good.

Hope that helps.

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

I used HONDABOND, should be available at any Honda dealership/outlet. With a pan brace, no leaks now for two years.

AchillesGr

iTrader: (1)

Zebb , can you find the loctite version that you used?
thanks guys.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Those will be David Garfinkles oil pan braces. I have them on all my rotaries and also going to get him to make couple of them for my 20Bs.

i prefer the milled grooves as it fits better and give bit more structural rigidity. I know some people disagree but is a fact of physics.. Otherwise, mazda themselves wouldn't of put those ridges there on a simple pressed sheet metal.

Zebb

Its called "loctite 5926" (Image-google it!). It might look different in different countries, but the number "5926" is the same.

Dont forget to clean the surfaces with acetone! Thats very important.

AchillesGr

iTrader: (1)

thanks Zebb!!
i found the 5926 and a 587 that seems it is newer.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

We have been offering the brace for the 20B for over a year http://banzai-racing.com/store/20B_oil_pan_brace.html

Correct, Mazda attempted to make the pan more rigid by stamping a ridge, this was meant to prevent leaks. It did not work very well did it? Every other rotary pan Mazda made FB, FC, Cosmo has a flat rim with exception to the RX-8. We have had RX-8's in our shop with as little as 10k miles that have leaking pans.

I am not going to turn this into yet another "groove-y" thread. As I said earlier this has been covered in great detail. Machining the grove reduces the amount of pressure exerted on the pan in the areas where it needs it most (between the bolt holes). You are right it is a matter of physics, create a cavity for the ridge to fit in and there is no pressure, pretty simple.

This post explains the physics in a very basic way https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...6&postcount=13

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Yes, I've seen that you offer 20B pan brace. But I am a believer that the grooving provides extra strength to support the 20B... even though its flat.



I also don't want to get into this debate... But I have to at least share my thoughts and let others decide..

For instance, on an FD, if your oil pan brace is used, it will have to flatten factory oil pan grooves by your brace in order to be used correctly in term of putting equal pressure. Otherwise, most of the pressure will be on the raised groove themselves. Also, why would I pay $120 for one when I was getting Garfinkles for about $100 and I don't have to crush the factory grooves (if all could be flatten out in equal pressure).

Second, my years of science classes and physic courses... but mainly just my basic knowledge I have, tells me that without a groove, the metal could be bent certain ways. Just think about it... its harder to bend the metal where the groove is vs with out the groove (try on your factory oil pan). That's another reason why i'm getting Garfinkle's because of that.. even for the 20B where its not necessary as no grooves are on the pan but I would want that because it would be stronger (another form of holding the engine together (torqure).

I also read a scientific paper on this 2-3 years ago as I got into this debate with someone.. But I don't remember where that was. It showed how much stronger the metal got by putting a groove.

Either case, this thread is about sharing why we do what we do. If I don't make sense to someone and think flat cut piece of metal is better than other than that's fine with me. I personally just trying to give my 2 cents.. I know all of us on here are smart enough to make our own decisions

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

This make no sense. If the brace were a thin piece of sheet metal, then adding a bead to it would increase the rigidity. However it is not, it is a 3/16" thick piece of steel, machining a groove, does nothing to increase the integrity of the piece.


But obviously you do.

Incorrect, as has already been proven in this thread here: https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...oil+pan+groove

And more specifically this post showing the exact opposite of what you are describing: https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=15

Actually for several reasons.
1) Our brace comes with a stud kit & nuts, the "other" comes with inferior bolts that can not be torqued without stripping the aluminum and often times break off in the steel housings.
2) Our brace is plated to prevent rusting, we have heard from multiple people that shortly after installation, the "other" brace started rusting
3) We have had numerous people switch to our brace after developing leaks with the "other" brace
4) We always have them in stock, no waiting..
The list actually goes on, but I will stop there....

Again, grooving a steel bar does nothing, the brace is not made of sheet metal where beading it would actually be effective.

Again it is called a bead and it applies to sheet metal applications. We have a $1000.00 bead roller here for exactly that purpose.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

LOL! You said you don't want to get into this but at the same time YOU ALSO do

I'm not talking about sheet metal "bead" but thicker metal such as the ones Garfinkle is using and yours and putting a 'groove'. Also, Garfinkles brace does come with hardwares and I believe Jason from RX7store.net also sells them. Also the groove David Garfinkle puts is rounded groove and there is a reason for being round/cylindrical groove vs flat. This take much more time and its well thought of.

I've already expressed my opinion and I'll drop it at this time. those of you wanting to know about why, I'll be happy to explain via PM or you could do your own research about this.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

When someone is trying to push an inferior product from a member that is banned from this site. I said I didn't want to get into a debate yet I am not going to back away.

As previously mentioned it comes with bolts, NOT studs & nuts. Bolts break in the steel housings and strip the aluminum when torqued. You can glaze right by the rusting problem all you like. Does not look like Jason carries the brace any longer or a stud kit which would have been extra anyway. So again $100 for an inferior product that you need to buy the correct hardware to install and coat with something vs. our brace that comes with everything for $20 more. Not really a tough call.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Ouch! That's a low blow! But I think most understand the reason why and I have no problem you thinking that way. Glad to know that's how low you like to go and such.

Thanks for mentioning about the studs and nuts. I'll make sure to research that and see if they are in fact better. If so, I'll mention it to David Garfinkle.. But I think those who have dealt with him including many rotary guys I know understand his level of skill, education, and experience to believe what he makes are superior vs. some seen on this forum. I would NEVER call his parts inferior not because I know him personally, but because it makes sense to what I know. I myself have debated over things with him multiple times and its understand and reasoning is what improves parts for our cars. I think keep calling his product inferior doesn't change much and I think people needs to just make their own choice based on logic and reasoning.

Either case, thanks for your constructive argument over this topic and your negative portrait of me because I was banned here before. Thanks for your time

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

I could not care less if you were banned, I was referring to the manufacturer of the brace you so highly praise; https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=16

However it should explained to people that you have an ulterior motive to your stance based off an "affiliation" with vendors on another forum. Of which the particular one in question is banned from this site.

Logic and reasoning, as well as superior quality and timely delivery, would be the reasons why we sell so many of our braces every week all over the world.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Thanks for clarifying that, I thought you were talking about me I didn't know David was banned on here. He's definitely a good guy and have contributed a lot to this community.

Are you stereotyping my motive?? LOL! I could tell you that has nothing to do with that. I've debated with multiple people on and not on my forum. Maybe you might work that way, but not me. If something I think is not right, I will say it with a reason. If I am proven wrong, i will admit and consider it something new I learned.
Also, no one on the other forum pays a fee so I don't gain any benefit from it. I think that might be the cause of David getting ban from here... not really because he is providing inferior product nor scamming people. Also, he has directly donated his time and money sponsoring various events and help others put their cars together. I'm sure you do the same so getting ban on this forum shouldn't be an issue or be brought up as an argument.

[/QUOTE]Logic and reasoning would be the reason why we sell so many of our braces every week all over the world.[/QUOTE]

Or maybe people just don't know other brace exists... Wouldn't you agree that might be a case also? I understand you pay this forum to advertise and your product is easily seen. And especially knowing now that David Garfinkle was banned, I could see how no one might not know of his products. No offense to you, but as logic and reasoning is conserned comparing the two, I think most will pick Garfinkles when examined in person (Regarding studs vs bolts are I think more of a preference and shouldn't be over tightened anyhow.. Maybe you have to over tighten because you need to flatten the 'beads' on the oem pan??). Most people that have seen my brace (I bought 3 from Garfinkle) have picked over yours. Pure and simple based on design of the brace. And these are highly educated people and some with engineering degrees. Also, David can easily make the brace without the grooves and sell it much cheaper, but he believes and I believe that there is a benefit of having the grooves. Again, I can't agree with your statement about his being inferior..

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

It's callled a "bead" in the sheet-metal pan and a machined "groove" on the brace. Potato, potahtoe.

The links don't seem to prove anything. They are Banzai's explanation on why Banzai didn't put "grooves" in the brace. I'm sure it has nothing to do with machining/production costs.
I defend products I believe in. I like Garfinkle's brace better...that's why I bought one and I credit a leak free pan for the past two years. Took me 15 minutes to paint it.

FWIW, I also defended Banzai's differential brace from attacks on this forum for the same reasons.... because I believe in it's design. I've also confidently recommended Banzai's other products too.

Putting a completely flat brace against the beaded pan makes no sense. IMO, torquing against that raised bead will flatten sheet metal and affect the torque...probably immediately, but definitely over time. I also understood that one principle behind a brace is to reduce flex of the layered block, not to create localized "pressure points" on the mating surfaces. With no groove, reducing flex/adding rigidity seems impossible.
This is my rationale. But if there are testing results (not anecdotal) to the contrary I'd be happy to consider them.

And I invite correction, but if/when Garfinlke was banned, I'd bet it was because he was an unauthorized vendor. In other words, it was a commercial decision.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

I have to agree.. I looked at the links and it doesn't tell me much..

I also agree. And hence I stated what I've stated so far.

Well, I'm not going to state anything about the diff brace, but I would say I recently did recommended their PFC harness kit for the auto FD. I really don't have any peeve against them and I do recommend their products when I think they are saving time or well thought of.

Maybe your way of explanation will makes more sense than mine.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

Like I said, there was no need for this thread to turn into yet another "groove-y" thread. All the OP wanted to know is if he should use a gasket or not.

What you fail to realize is that I have an Engineering Degree and arguing with you is the equivalent of debating a topic with a 10mm wrench. There is nothing to be gained from it.

I am sure many people question your reasons for visiting this forum, you created your own because you thought this one was so bad. I find it interesting that you need to come here to push your event as well as inferior products from vendors that are not allowed to sell here. Maybe you just don't have the traffic that you had expected at your forum?

I have seen you start no less then two separate threads pushing what has to be the worst design for motor mounts yet to be introduced to the market, made by (no surprise here) the same vendor of the brace you are pushing. No ulterior motive? In the very least you are attempting to generate sales so that he can sponsor your event. It is more than that though isn't it?

I have witnessed in multiple threads now that you are the type of personality that needs to have the last word so that you can feel like you "won", so have at it. I will not be responding to your posts, this way you can have your victory, as hollow as it will be.

There is a huge difference between a bead and a groove.

A bead is represented by having an indentation on one side and a protrusion on the opposite surface. For example the oil pan has a bead stamped into the edge to attempt to make the the sheet metal more rigid. It is represented by a concave channel on the mating face and a convex "bump" on the outer surface.

A groove is an indentation without a corresponding protrusion on the opposing surface.


AchillesGr- I am truly sorry for unwittingly aiding Herblenny in the pollution of your thread

DaveW

I'll add another rather useless post...

While having an engineering degree (I have an engineering PhD from Case) can be an advantage in understanding the subjects covered by the degree, it is not, IMO, the be-all, end-all factor. Debate on the merits of a given design, however, is always a good thing. And, absolute certainty in the correctness of any design, belief, etc. is not, IMO, any evidence of its validity. The educated reader will make his or her own informed decision, anyway, as it should be.

In this context, the definition of a "bead" is a raised or "projecting rim, band, or molding" in an otherwise flat surface. An indent on the backside of the raised area is not necessary to the definition. So, a "bead" and a "groove" are actually defined as negatives of each other. But, as you said, they are very different. It could be a bead as in the subject oil pan flange, or, for instance, a weld bead, etc.

Respectfully,

Dave

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Well, That's very surprising to hear. I would of guessed you of all people would ofunderstood what me and Stgblue were talking about regarding how flat metal hits the 'bead' and its better than something that touches around the pan beads for even distribution of pressure.. May I also ask where did you get your engineering degree and what type of engineering degree?

Aren't we getting bit to personal here? Are you trying to instigate me to say something bad about you?? I'm not sure what you think of me nor if you truly understand the situation at hand, but I think its better you keep to the topic at hand regarding you bad mouthing other vendors. Sure they are not here, but I think its a poor practice in general for another vendor to call other stating that they sell inferior parts when already 2 people who have this product stated its not.

Regarding my event, its an event for the Rotary enthusiasts.. Its to bring enthusiasts together and talk about products and such. Are you against such events??

Also, please be mindful that I do in fact also promote your product.... as stated earlier.

Please think about being professional instead of guessing my intent when I'm trying to advice of others of options available and issues pertaining to certain product. I think what I did is not much more than someone suggesting what sealant to use and what brand. Just because David Garfinkle being banned here does not make any difference between the examples given.. as I myself didn't not know until you mentioned it.


WOW! So, let me get this straight... So you are now calling his motor mounts to be inferior also?? What about his engine torque brace?? How about BNR twins?? How about all the work he did for maybe rotary guys?? Are all his work inferior??

So, let me understand what your saying here... instead of explaining why, you just label any other product sold by Garfinkle to be inferior? I'm also wondering if Garfinkle were to be on this forum as a vendor, would you also state such thing?? Because I think that would be against this forum policy. Can you also think of any other products on this forum to be inferior?? I would like to know this... How about from another paying vendor on this forum??

Regarding you thinking that I specifically pushing David Garfinkle's products.... I post about any products I put on my car. I post about good, bad, or useless. Go check out my build section. I recently spent hundreds on FEED trunk piece and I said, I wasn't sure if it was practical.. So, was I lying?? And if so, what gain did I have for saying that?? Also, me trying to inform about other rotary products available to fellow rotorhead is not against forum rules. Just because they aren't a paying vendor doesn't mean someone can't post about that product. If that's the case, there are much larger vendors that people write about that never paid a dime to this forum. Again, please stop stereotyping me... I'm sure there are people contacting you thanking what you've provided for them or you posting about certain products that people found it useful. I also get PM's and such when people found out about specific products because I tested or posted on the forum with my review... Just as someone in Mobile, AL contacting me asking me about if he should convert his auto FD to manual or keep it auto?? I suggested your harness adaptor as one of the solution to keeping auto and use PFC.. Why, because I have one


To be honest, I've yet to bring anything personal against you except to state my reasoning of your personal stereotype of me. As a Garfinkle product owner and someone telling me that what I've purchase is inferior is bit rude and shouldn't be stated by a professional. If someone commented about your auto harness adapter and I have no problems with it, I would do the same. Why? because I've researched it and found to be useful and still using it.

And if its infact inferior, I would like to know the true reasons and be able to debate to show why its inferior... instead of bringing personal matter at hand. Again, I'm just responding to your comments and if you stop, I'll stop.. Or if you answer my questions and explain why its inferior, I would state to you that it make sense and tell you. its not about who win or loose but what we could learn from this.

Finster

iTrader: (1)

and the winner is..... (?)

alexdimen

iTrader: (13)

I'm having great luck with right stuff and no gasket.

I side with the grooved pan brace school of thinking. Here's why:

In mazda's oil pan design, they sacrificed a small amount of sealing area in order to add rigidity to the pan. If the pan flange were ideally rigid, the pressure from the bolts would be equally distributed everywhere but the recessed area due to the bead.

With a brace grooved to match the protrusions from the bead, you are effectively increasing the thickness of the pan flange AND maintaining the same areas of pressure. These areas include around the bolt holes and either side of the beads. You could trace an unbroken line from a point all the way around the pan and back to it's origin where there is an even amount of presssure along that line.

With an ungrooved brace, if I'm understanding the design correctly (as a flat piece of metal), you are transferring pressure only to the raised bead. This sacrifices pressure between bolt holes where there is no bead. In addition, most of the pressure would be at the surface areas where the bead transitions to flat flange and not all the way across the width of the flange due to the metal deforming without any reinforcement.

At the same time, I can understand why a groove is undesireable based on the fact that it reduces thickness, reduces cross sectional area and creates a stress concentration, but increased thickness and a radiused groove could go a long way to negate those effects.

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

Just drysump it and call it a day.

Rx_Sam

does anybody have pictures from how much ultra grey to use on the oil pan to seal ???

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

I have no pictures, but the Service Manual says to use a 4mm to 6mm continuous bead just inboard of the bolt holes. Page C-79. There are pictures in the FSM that might help.