Silverstone

Need the think tank as I've heard it called before:

Here are my symptoms and I am hoping it is not as serious as the beginning of "O" ring failure.

1. Immediately after a run I get overflow of coolant from coolant reservoir.
2. After cooling the first time I start engine I get low coolant buzzer.
3. I add coolant each time and its about 2 inches low.
4. At this point no excessive white smoke from exhaust
5. This has happened about 8 times in a row. Each time I run the car, same symptoms appear.
6. Stock temp gauge does not indicate overheating but I understand stock gauge isn't very good at detecting until it is too late.
7. Have tried replacing all the caps and problem still happens.
8. Coolant appears to be drawn into reservoir but will not flow back into the engine.
9. No noticeable loss of power, yet.
10. Do not smell coolant in the exhaust (I think).
11. Hear gurgling sound coming from engine while engine is cooling with trunk hood open.
12. A small gremlin is dancing with delight on top of car while yelling profane comments at me. Ok I lied about that part

jpandes

Have you done the "champagne bubble" test to see if exhaust gas is getting into your cooling system?

When your car is cold, remove the filler neck cap. Top off the coolant/water. Start the car. Let it ilde and come up to operating temp and watch the coolant a the filler neck*. If you see a steady stream of air bubbles you most likely have an O-ring leak that is allowing air/exhaust into your cooling system. Bummer.

*Some guys jam a funnel into the filler neck to allow for some coolant expansion while the car heats up.

Good luck!

You may also want to search this forum for the following key words: "O-ring fix" and/or "block weld"

Rocking Rotary

iTrader: (14)

What condition are your turbos in? they can eat coolant as well. Hopefully you dont have a ORing problem.

rynberg

If you aren't getting white smoke or hard cold starting, then you are probably fine. Coolant flowing to the overflow and not returning is a sign of a bad/improper AST cap.

skotx

You could also have a bad connection from the hose to the overflow tank allowing air to be sucked into the system, but your symptoms sound a lot like mine when my o-rings failed.

Let the car sit for a few days and have someone else start it while you watch the tailpipe. If it's only a minor leak then you won't get constant white smoke, just a puff at startup.

You might also pressure test the cooling system, once with the car cold and once with the car at operating temp (thermostat open, but not running!). Let it sit for several hours with the system pressurized and see how much bleeds off.

-Scott

ArcWelder

I'll vote for a leak in your coolant recovery system, not O'ring failure. You wouldn't be constantly spilling coolant from the overflow if it were being drawn back into the system when cooled down. Most common failures are the AST cap, hose to overflow tank, or filler neck cap.

bajaman

I had an 'O' ring failure without the white smoke/coolant burning. Evidently with my failure it was JUST enough of a leak to let combustion pressure overpressurize the cooling system and thus force coolant into the overflow tank, yet not bad enough that the roughly 13 psi the cooling system generated could force coolant back into the combustion chambers. Makes sense I guess....13 psi vs 140 psi. I too had changed all the caps thinking (hoping/praying) that it was not an 'O' ring. But the litmus test for this is to take a cold engine and take off the filler neck cap and watch for bubbles. I had them immediately. Also, listen for a 'rushing' sound in the heater core, another tell-tale. Or simply take a coolant sample to a qualified auto repair facility/testing lab and they can test it for hydrocarbon traces and you will know for sure.
The GOOD news is that it sound like IF you have a bad 'O' ring, it is not REAL bad yet. So you are a prime candidate for the block weld routine. Also, while most people use CRC Block-Weld or one of the many others that has the suspended copper particles, there is a new product I saw hyped on several automotive tv shows. It is called Steel Seal and it seems to be The Cure for nearly everything. Someone is going to have to be the guinea pig and try this....may as well be you! Lol.....
Here is a link:
http://www.steelseal.com/eng/home.html

adam c

iTrader: (2)

Don't jump to conclusions about an o-ring failure. The first thing to do is make sure that you get all of the air out of the cooling system. If your ast cap was bad, you may have residual air still in there.

When the car is cold, remove the throttle body coolant line from the back of the TB. This will allow air to escape the system when you refill with coolant. Remove both coolant caps. Fill the ast, and wait to see if it goes down. Fill until it won't go down. Keep an eye on the TB during this. If it starts to overflow, replace the hose. When the ast won't take any more coolant, cap it. Now fill at the filler tank. This will get rid of most (not all) of the air from your system. You will probably have to fill a little bit at the filler neck a few more times. Doing this for a few days will remove all of the air from your system *IF* you have no other problems.

Don't forget to replace the TB coolant line

NVMYRX-7

iTrader: (24)

I just finished replacing a engine and for a month I had the same issue then it just got worse, until I couldn't even start it. That's when I had to have it towed to the house, replace plugs, and one final drive to the shop.

Silverstone

Ok, then if you agree with bajaman, do you also think I should try Steelseal first? Anyway there is no question now. I did the champagne bubble test and definately saw the bubble right away. Also noticed more white smoke than I noticed before so I guess I'm going to have to do something quick and hope one of the shortcut fixes works. I'll check the steelseal link and the crc block weld search to see what I come up with. One more question: Could this have anything to do with the fact that I just had a new clutch put in recently just a few wks ago? Would removing and putting back the transmission have possibly caused the seal to fail quicker? After I had this done I read somewhere that this is a good time to re-torque the main engine bolts under the flywheel and I don't know if my shop performed this or not. Just asking.

three sevens

Heres a link to the block weld fix if you have to use it.http://www.fd3s.net/o-ring_fix.html

BuckyFD3

The bolts should have been re-torqued for peace of mind, try the rad-weld stuff as you have nothing to lose.

Worst thing it, engine out replace seals and get it ported. at least you internals arn't damaged yet so it wont cost you much for a rebuild.

Silverstone

Ok here's the deal. I've got the car up for sale right now. It has low orig miles and everthing else on the car is primo, good paint, interior, electricals, new trans and clutch. I'm thinking of just selling it *as-is* to one you rotorheads for a good price. Someone make me an offer and I might take it. Does anyone know how much I should pay for a re-build if all the internals are in good shape? Is rotary-resurrection the way to go? Just considering all my options. So far I'm not really in favor of doing a half-assed crc-weld or similar product. You know what I'm saying, just do it right or let someone else do it right.

BuckyFD3

Basic rebuild kit isn't much, but the time to do it i.e labour costs more. phone round to see if it'll be worth doing before you sell it. You might get your money back and more, you might not. Or block weld it and get some ricer to buy it.

Silverstone

Thanks for the advice. Problem is there are not many rotary specialist shops around here in Sacramento Calif area. I have one that I've been working with but they are expensive. The guy mentioned to me last time I was in for transmission work, that they do new engines only and charge $15K US. Well that is out of the question for me. There is another guy I will check with that is a member here. He is not too far out of the way in Marysville which is about 2 hr drive I think. (Karack is his screen name). I've never used him so would be a risk but he would probably be cheaper. Wish I could do some of this stuff myself but I'm a paper pusher; what do I know about replacing engines

rynberg

There is a simple test for this -- you can measure whether or not combustion exhaust is getting into the coolant. Then you will know. I don't think you have exhausted (no pun intended) the possibilities yet.

And I've heard several good things about Karack, but don't have any personal experience.

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

Personally, I think that's a good call. I'm not sold on the blockweld stuff either. I'm not sure how friendly that stuff would be to turbo coolant passages and the heater core.

bajaman

$15K for a new engine is wacked. A brand new rebuild with new turbos and the works will only run around $6K, and figure another grand to put take out the old and put in the new...so $7K would be THE most I'd ever pay to have someone put in a new engine.
You can save yourself half that by doing the work yourself, getting a rebuild and re-using your turbos since they sound fine.
It all depends on if you want to keep the car and invest a little to make it perfect again, or to cut your losses and sell it. Look at it this way: If you fix it, regardless of it you keep it or not, it is worth just that much more. These things are just worthless paperweights without a working engine......you can't hardly GIVE them away.
If you fix it you can have pretty good assurances that it will be (relatively) trouble free for several years.

Silverstone

Isn't the champagne bubble test pretty definitive? Also I have now noticed that when I start the engine up there are tiny water droplets coming out of the exhaust with a little white smoke.

Silverstone

Yeah I want to fix it. I will PM Karack and see if he can help me out. I am not a mechanic. The most mechanical thing I have ever done is replace a radiator on a Toyota Corolla. On the 7 I have changed the oil myself and that's about it. I don't want to trust myself doing the work myself and experiment on my own car. How bout you lend me yours and I'll see how it goes, lol.

adam c

iTrader: (2)

Did I mention that you need to clear the air from your system before making any judgements.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

My coolant seals took a **** on me on my original engine with 63k miles on the clock. Never really figured out why, i hadn't overheated the car or even ran it hot in the previous 3 years. As previously stated, if it is the motor at least it's a cheap rebuild--you can reuse all your hard parts b/c of no detonation/apex seal damage. The important thing is to not jump to any conclusions and do anything crazy until you are sure the motor is bad. I personally think the block weld treatment will create more problems than it temporarily fixes.

Silverstone

I think I will have my coolant analyzed for exaust gases as has been suggested before proceeding with any rebuild. This would be the definitive test, would it not?

I never had any big problem burbing my system before this. After 8 top offs wouldn't that be the long method of burping the system? Coolant or water is definately coming out the exhaust and I do have light white smoke at start up. Bubbles are coming up thru the filler neck on warmed up engine as well.
I haven't noticed any loss of power though. Last spark plug change it was suggested to me that a rebuild could be in my near future. The plugs were a bit contaminated with possibly coolant. But then after driving it the mechanic said he might have been premature. Now with all the other evidence mounting is does not look good.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Coolant on the plugs isn't good. I don't see how your mechanic could gain anything from driving the car that would change that. Also, $15k for a rebuild is laughable. At the most, you're looking at 5k, and that includes a new reman motor. As I stated before, you are looking at a cheap rebuild.

scotty305

iTrader: (2)

I recently had a similar experience, with good results so far:

In February, my car started consuming coolant. The "low coolant" buzzer and light would come on, and stay on for as long as 45-50 seconds sometimes.
Trip distance didn't seem to make a difference, the same amount of coolant was consumed regardless of mileage traveled.
Sometimes the car would consume a LOT of coolant: I remember using a full 500mL water bottle to top the coolant level off.

I found that the coolant line coming from the top of the AST (near the cap) was a bit loose, so I clamped it down with a hose clamp. I also installed a water temperature gauge to keep tabs on the engine, in hopes of avoiding overheating.

The car kept consuming coolant for a while, and I kept feeding it. Sometimes the overflow tank would spill onto the ground, just like the problem you describe. A 'champagne bubble test' indicates that I've probably got a coolant seal issue. I kept topping the coolant off every time the car was cold, and took extra care to let the car warm up before driving hard. Eventually, the problem went away. My car hasn't been low on coolant in over a month. Your mileage may vary...


-s-