New Apexi coilover on the market
03-02-05, 10:02 PM
#51
Originally Posted by jimlab
Ask BicuspiD, or read this...
https://www.rx7club.com/suspension-wheels-tires-brakes-20/pillowballs-all-installed-my-impressions-looooong-312722/
https://www.rx7club.com/suspension-wheels-tires-brakes-20/pillowballs-all-installed-my-impressions-looooong-312722/
03-02-05, 10:53 PM
#52
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Jason, I bought a set of the n-1 exv's but won't get them till sometime next week.I,m curious as to the dimensions of the springs themselves.Howard's post was excellent and is a help to some of us who don't know as much about what spring rates are best for our cars.For those that have bought coilovers that are too stiff,I know Swift makes springs that are compatable with most j-spec coilovers in various sizes and spring rates.
03-03-05, 11:28 AM
#53
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Originally Posted by GOTBANNED?
So you think 502lbs upfront and 447lbs in the rear would be too much for the street/track? I'm looking at the Zeal B6 Model. and thats the lowest spring setting they have. The car will be driven at the road course once and while but also mostly on the street.
their lowest is 9 kg/mm - 8 kg/mm
their lowest is 9 kg/mm - 8 kg/mm
dis1
03-03-05, 12:44 PM
#54
Originally Posted by howard coleman
“the front and rears are valved differently and they prefer that method over different spring rates.”
shock valving and spring rates are two entirely different things. The above statement is ridiculous.
“I was wondering if anyone has ever installed spherical bearings to replace their bushings”
the fd has a real racecar suspension and as such employs a bunch of spherical bearings, sometimes called “pillowball” bearings. They are a wear/maintainence item but are worth the extra effort. There are, IMO, two places where mazda elected to use rubber and should have used either a much much higher durometer (read stiffer) rubber or spherical bearing or, ala Jim, a nylon variant. I think every performance oriented fd should replace the front big fat rubber bushing on the lower longitudinal link at the rear suspension. It feeds all the acceleration and braking forces into the chassis. The second replacement candidates are the two big fat rubber differential bushings…. Nylon is the way to go. Jack up the car and you will note the diff moves up an inch before the car starts to rise. Not good.
Other than those two the fd has spherical bearings where needed. It was designed almost 100% right from the start.
“I have the JIC FLT A2's with the 9KG 12KG spring rate. They are okay for street, unless you are on really harsh roads. Then it can become a bit uncomfortable. They are still completely streetable from a comfort level.
However, after reading Howard's post, I am more concerned that these heavier springs may actually be hurting performance rather than helping. I think I would be better of with 10KG 8KG or 8KG 6KG?”
12 kg is 670…. Way too stiff….that’s 1340 pounds per inch at 2 inches of bump and your corner weighs 700 pounds. If you can swap down to 8/6 you will go faster and smile lots more. If your shocks are adj you probably will not have to revalve them.
Pillowball upper mounts truly suck on an fd. I would simply adapt the upper shock rod to the OEM rubber mount. BTW, I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read Jim’s comment about wondering whether he could adapt his coil overs to the oem setup. This coming from someone who has truly and properly re-engineered the whole car… it might take an hour’s work for most of us and 10 minutes for him..
Howard coleman
shock valving and spring rates are two entirely different things. The above statement is ridiculous.
“I was wondering if anyone has ever installed spherical bearings to replace their bushings”
the fd has a real racecar suspension and as such employs a bunch of spherical bearings, sometimes called “pillowball” bearings. They are a wear/maintainence item but are worth the extra effort. There are, IMO, two places where mazda elected to use rubber and should have used either a much much higher durometer (read stiffer) rubber or spherical bearing or, ala Jim, a nylon variant. I think every performance oriented fd should replace the front big fat rubber bushing on the lower longitudinal link at the rear suspension. It feeds all the acceleration and braking forces into the chassis. The second replacement candidates are the two big fat rubber differential bushings…. Nylon is the way to go. Jack up the car and you will note the diff moves up an inch before the car starts to rise. Not good.
Other than those two the fd has spherical bearings where needed. It was designed almost 100% right from the start.
“I have the JIC FLT A2's with the 9KG 12KG spring rate. They are okay for street, unless you are on really harsh roads. Then it can become a bit uncomfortable. They are still completely streetable from a comfort level.
However, after reading Howard's post, I am more concerned that these heavier springs may actually be hurting performance rather than helping. I think I would be better of with 10KG 8KG or 8KG 6KG?”
12 kg is 670…. Way too stiff….that’s 1340 pounds per inch at 2 inches of bump and your corner weighs 700 pounds. If you can swap down to 8/6 you will go faster and smile lots more. If your shocks are adj you probably will not have to revalve them.
Pillowball upper mounts truly suck on an fd. I would simply adapt the upper shock rod to the OEM rubber mount. BTW, I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read Jim’s comment about wondering whether he could adapt his coil overs to the oem setup. This coming from someone who has truly and properly re-engineered the whole car… it might take an hour’s work for most of us and 10 minutes for him..
Howard coleman
03-03-05, 01:10 PM
#55
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Tein offers springs of varying rates that can be purchased seperately from the shock. They'll also be able to spec something like the RA with a softer spring. I called them about the RA's spring rate and what would be applicable to the RA in terms of going with a softer spring. Their comment was the valving could handle the 10/8kg combo but nothing lower. One could even spec out lower spring rates for the Flex or HA's which is what I currently run.
03-03-05, 05:36 PM
#56
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it is very interesting to learn that there may be some coil over spring options.
i do like the apexi deal excepting the spring rates.
if it were possible to swap or buy other springs for the Exv it would be excellent. i wonder if most of the coil overs feature the same od and id as to springs. obviously length would also be a factor.
as to the Tein comment about the valving on the RA's working only down to 10/8 558/447... i am really surpised at that comment.
i have dynoed Tein adj shocks and their valving spans a huge spectrum. from almost limp to rock hard. i would be extremely surprised if you couldn't easily accomodate say, 8/6 447/335.
howard coleman
i do like the apexi deal excepting the spring rates.
if it were possible to swap or buy other springs for the Exv it would be excellent. i wonder if most of the coil overs feature the same od and id as to springs. obviously length would also be a factor.
as to the Tein comment about the valving on the RA's working only down to 10/8 558/447... i am really surpised at that comment.
i have dynoed Tein adj shocks and their valving spans a huge spectrum. from almost limp to rock hard. i would be extremely surprised if you couldn't easily accomodate say, 8/6 447/335.
howard coleman
03-03-05, 05:59 PM
#57
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I checked swift's web site and they list three different inside diameters for their coilover replacement springs and multiple lengths.They also state that their springs work with most aftermarket japanese coilovers,I guess it's a matter of measuring your springs and picking wich spring rate you prefer.I spoke to a person at amemiya's shop and they couldn't say enough about the quality.I know endless uses swift on their coilovers as do alot of high end coilover manufacturers.As far as Tein I know you can order different rates from them but you'd have to call them.
03-03-05, 08:42 PM
#58
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I believe the optional spring rates are listed on the Tein site.
Howard, have you ever dyno'd the RA's? Just remember what sort of spring rate they come with stock! They are EXTREMELY light as they're monotube and aluminum. You're probably saving 5-10lbs. per shock over the HA shocks. I'd personally go for the RE's with the full length height adjustment option that keeps the piston stroke cnstant. Same as the RA's otherwise. Naturally, go with a lower spring rate! Well, just checked their web site and it looks like the stock 16kg springs f/r can only be swapped for something up to 4kg greater or 2kg lighter:
http://www.tein.com/ti/m50.html
Spring options:
http://www.tein.com/stsp.html
I have a feeling they'd work with lower spring rates regardless.
Michel
Howard, have you ever dyno'd the RA's? Just remember what sort of spring rate they come with stock! They are EXTREMELY light as they're monotube and aluminum. You're probably saving 5-10lbs. per shock over the HA shocks. I'd personally go for the RE's with the full length height adjustment option that keeps the piston stroke cnstant. Same as the RA's otherwise. Naturally, go with a lower spring rate! Well, just checked their web site and it looks like the stock 16kg springs f/r can only be swapped for something up to 4kg greater or 2kg lighter:
http://www.tein.com/ti/m50.html
Spring options:
http://www.tein.com/stsp.html
I have a feeling they'd work with lower spring rates regardless.
Michel
04-02-05, 08:21 PM
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Had to give this Thread a BUMP..
THanks HOWARD. very informative..
SO has anyone tried the NEW APEX on the road or track yet???
are the Springs to stiff or just right? ???
THanks HOWARD. very informative..
SO has anyone tried the NEW APEX on the road or track yet???
are the Springs to stiff or just right? ???
04-25-05, 03:35 PM
#66
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mine have been installed for a couple of weeks and I am pleased with them.Spring rates are a bit stiff but it is a matter of preferance.I'll probably get a softer set of springs,I'd say @550/450.
04-25-05, 03:35 PM
#67
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Originally Posted by potatochobit
ok im a abit confused.
when it says comes with upper mounts, do they mean the upper pillow ball mounts?
when it says comes with upper mounts, do they mean the upper pillow ball mounts?
I honestly don't know how Apexi is selling that model for so cheap. The Tein Flex is the over $300 more and it WAS the cheapest coilover on the market with those features. It's too bad that Apexi put some ludicrous spring rates on those coilovers. Too stiff overall and WAY too stiff at the rear.
05-03-05, 09:47 PM
#72
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interesting. why would that area need to be strengthened?
if anything, i would think that on the streets more shock would be transmitted directly to the chassis and might weaken the chassis.
if anything, i would think that on the streets more shock would be transmitted directly to the chassis and might weaken the chassis.
03-29-06, 02:57 PM
#73
Nice and informative thread from expierianced drivers, but.........
This is completely and utterly incorrect (although you must and have been commended on your other info). Strut cars DO gain negative camber in their suspension sweep. They do not have the wheel traveling in a strait up and down fashion as Howard just described. There are geometries were they gain negative camber, gain very very little, or can actually gain positive camber in their suspension sweep. But the only time positive camber gain happens is when the struts center line (lower ball joint to upper strut mount) angle is greater then 90 degrees in relation to the lower control/A-arm's center line (line going through lower ball joint/pivot and arms pivot were it mounts to the chassis). Usually in extremely lowered strut race cars the roll center doesn't change as much in relation to the center of gravity. These drawbacks result in a greater moment arm for the cars weight to roll the car over in corners. To combat this you need to raise your roll center so the moment arm (this is a imaginary and dynamic arm) is shorter being closer to CG. Another benefit to doing this mod which usually is done by lowering the lower outer ball joint is gaining some negative camber in the suspension sweep (not talking static negative camber, but gaining negative camber dynamically through the suspension stroke/sweep).
Although the double control arm is a way better design allowing for more dynamics and adjustability, struts work great granted their geometries are engineered correctly for the application. On a full blown race car the double control arm has little advantages except adjustability and packaging. Porches, EVO's, most Lotus and Subi's use struts and are well capable cars on the street and tracks (even rough terrain such as rally). If I were financially able to engineer and build my dream car, of coarse it would have double control arm suspension.
FWIW, I have TEIN Flex coilovers for my FC
and think MOST of the struts/coilovers for the FC are WAY to stiffly sprung hence my decision to go with the Flex's aside from liking TEIN's dampers.
~Mike........
Originally Posted by howard coleman
Not true w greatly inferior Macpherson strut cars. No negative camber gain- so when they roll in a corner 3 degrees the outside front tire rolls 3 degrees positive from it’s static setting! That’s why they have to run way too stiff shocks unlike the fd.
Howard Coleman
Howard Coleman
This is completely and utterly incorrect (although you must and have been commended on your other info). Strut cars DO gain negative camber in their suspension sweep. They do not have the wheel traveling in a strait up and down fashion as Howard just described. There are geometries were they gain negative camber, gain very very little, or can actually gain positive camber in their suspension sweep. But the only time positive camber gain happens is when the struts center line (lower ball joint to upper strut mount) angle is greater then 90 degrees in relation to the lower control/A-arm's center line (line going through lower ball joint/pivot and arms pivot were it mounts to the chassis). Usually in extremely lowered strut race cars the roll center doesn't change as much in relation to the center of gravity. These drawbacks result in a greater moment arm for the cars weight to roll the car over in corners. To combat this you need to raise your roll center so the moment arm (this is a imaginary and dynamic arm) is shorter being closer to CG. Another benefit to doing this mod which usually is done by lowering the lower outer ball joint is gaining some negative camber in the suspension sweep (not talking static negative camber, but gaining negative camber dynamically through the suspension stroke/sweep).
Although the double control arm is a way better design allowing for more dynamics and adjustability, struts work great granted their geometries are engineered correctly for the application. On a full blown race car the double control arm has little advantages except adjustability and packaging. Porches, EVO's, most Lotus and Subi's use struts and are well capable cars on the street and tracks (even rough terrain such as rally). If I were financially able to engineer and build my dream car, of coarse it would have double control arm suspension.
FWIW, I have TEIN Flex coilovers for my FC
and think MOST of the struts/coilovers for the FC are WAY to stiffly sprung hence my decision to go with the Flex's aside from liking TEIN's dampers.~Mike........
Last edited by RacerXtreme7; 03-29-06 at 03:05 PM.
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