zenofspeed

iTrader: (1)

I want to build a reliable 420rwhp FD... I want to extend the time before the next rebuild to be as long as possible. But I also want to be able to thrash on it at the track and drive it regularly. Of course, I'll maintain the crap outta it.

Current thoughts for the rebuild:

2mm NRS Premium Ceramic Apex Seals
Upgraded Springs
New Housings
Stage 3 Port (aggressive Street)
Balanced motor
GT35R Divided T4 1.00 A/R
820/1600 inj w/ upgraded rails
Aeromotive FPR
Supra Pump
Aquamist System 2C w/ race pump (water/meth system)
I'll run 50/50 water and alky
Clutchmasters Stage 4
New Clutch hydraulics
Power FC
HKS Twinpower
Profec B II

Steve Kan tuned

I understand that many parts will naturally wear and fail as I throw a car around with this much power. But I suppose my question is really concerning engine internals.

Can a 420rwhp FD motor be reliable? Will I be faced 30k miles later with another rebuild like I am now? Will the ceramic seals make a difference?

Any input is appreciated. Especially from guys who have higher HP applications and high mileage. I know you can't have your cake and eat it too, but I'd like to know what I can do during this rebuild that may help the motor last a little longer.

Anything else that would help with engine wear and/or reliability? What would you add?

I'm still on the fence of going this route or going V8. I could build a N/A v8 with this much power... Wouldn't that be significantly more reliable?

Thanks

WaLieN

No, these goals are not realistic at all. Is it possible? Yes. Is it the least bit probable that it will happen? Probably not. You can make 420whp, or you can make it last 100k miles. Either or, but you'll be hard pressed to have both. Find me a motor that has made 420whp and lasted over 100k miles of it making 420whp and I will find you a Unicorn.



I'm not going to even bother going into the practicality, reliability, and power output of a V8 (LSx) swap, as it will just start a **** storm of arguing.

Best of luck to you on your high hp/reliability quest.

zenofspeed

iTrader: (1)

Ok let me rephrase... Can I have a pet Unicorn?

Ok Ok... stated mileage aside, what other mods/parts would at least help?

I do also notice you are in the midst of an LS1 swap... I'm not trying to start ****, BUT I would like to see some data points that show ANY real advantage of the 13b over the LS1. I'm completely objective and not attached to either motor... Everything Ive found shows the LS1 has: better torque, better mileage, better reliability, no need to boost, more low end, the list goes on. Then I hear the LS1 is only 15lbs heavier. I tried to find some threads to just read these comparisons but havn't found a very informative one yet.

drew32

How many people have 100k miles on stock cars?

rotarymandan

iTrader: (15)

You won't get 100k miles from a motor like that. My car had only basic mods, and the previous owner still had to get a new motor at 70k miles

zenofspeed

iTrader: (1)

Alright well, I wish I hadn't said 100k. Because this is going to become a "you can't get 100k on a 13b" thread.

Let's pretend I didn't state mileage.

twomucboost4u

iTrader: (9)

The ceramic seals are going to wear down before 100k that number is just rediculous whats wrong with 30-40k? thats almost 2 years of driving for most people just put $200 a side a month and rebiuld in two years, you cant make that kind of power without having to consitantly maintain and replace, fuel filter, bushings, clutch, fluids, spark plugs, rear end, axles, fuel pump. All it tkaes is one batch of bad gas, fuel pump to loose presure for one second, over heat once and kaboom. Yeah if no other variable happend ever and it was a perfect day everyday and everything ran perfect everyday it could last 100k but it doenst matter how well you biuld it outside variable will usually determine how long it lasts. You could go to the track with a perfect motor get into it and not pay attention to water temp for two secdonds and thats it, or you could be coming out of a corner with a low tank and the fuel pump not pick up enough fuel... All variables. Can you biuld a reliable motor that makes 420 yes but you cant expect any motor especially a rotary to last 100k 30-40k is more realistic.

Chris

zenofspeed

iTrader: (1)

The only pics I've seen of used ceramic seals showed almost no wear. Have they actually been fully mileage tested?
Nothing. But why not try and push the envelope?

I'm really looking for suggestions for the build. What other engine internals? Are there aftermarket side and corner seals that are better? Should I get the housings coated? Cmon guys, try and be helpful.

tt7hvn

iTrader: (5)

ok....

for a rotary motor to last that long...everything peripheral to the engine is controversial (ie: ps, a/c, wp, etc.)

when you break it down the only thing you really need to look at is the longetivity of the apex seals (at least after doing a complete rebuild, RH seals and water seals should be new). now, what you can do is get the apex seals cryogenically treated to make them ridicuously stronger and then further powdercoat them for longetivity. IMO i think with the proper planning....100k is possible putting out around 400hp.

granted at the same time you will need to consider a base map in order to downtune the profile of your car b/c you always won't need that much hp. personally i'd go haltech for that matter b/c you can store maps and change accordingly.

also, cryo treatment doesn't just stop at the apex seals, anything "metal" you can get treated (even RH seals), it's just the limit of your bank ultimately.

mind you, i am just looking at the engine itself internally and nothing else. everything outside? good luck but i hope this helps.

1.3Ldreamcar

iTrader: (1)

I dont know much about advanced apex seal technology, but I have read from MANY highly reputable rotary builders, that the threshold of reliability ends about 380whp. It is said that after this, the car will have exponential number of problems..... IMO 380hp is more then enough to compete against pretty much anything.... an FD in that range will pull on lambos, most ferraris, most porches, etc

Ls1 is also a good choice, lots of ppl do it and there is hands down better reliability for the actual engine... but there will still be problems associated with high HP (ex.clutch, tranny, fuel system, diff, etc)... and the cost of doing the swap can often warrant 2 or more comperable rotary builds.

hope that helps

skir2222

If my motor lasts 2-3yr's I'll be happy! I have no problem with that

Hitokiri_Gensai

iTrader: (2)

noooooooo ls1 is for teh quitterrrrrrssssssssssssss!!! xD KIDDING BEFORE SOMEONE KILLS ME.
i do understand the ideals of the LS1 being a very viable swap into the FD, but im a purist.

Eitherway, 400 horsepower is gonna be difficult to run reliably. hell i think even my 330 - 340 rwhp is gonna be tough to maintain reliably. But its one of those things you just have to live with when running a rotary.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

Powdercoated apex seals? Can you even name an engine builder who endorses that kind of nonsense?

Dave

Rotors R Cool

I'm waiting on the new FJO alcohol injection kit to come out and have gotham racing install it. We're aiming for 450rwhp while maintaining reasonable reliability. It's all in the tune.

zenofspeed

iTrader: (1)

alki injection installed and tuned by Gotham was part of the plan.

What advantages does the FJO have over the aquamist?

jdhuegel1

The question is:

Have you ever driven a PROPERLY RUNNING stock FD?

You guys toss these numbers around like Supra owners.

a 420HP FD is almost ignorant. **** it - I'm not even going to argue anymore...

mdpalmer

iTrader: (24)

^^ Well said, that's pretty much exactly what I was thinking There's just too much crap attached to your engine that could break. Because no matter how good your tune is, how new your motor is, there are dozens of other things that may go out on you. And it's not just rotary powered cars. Piston cars blow up too, everything man-made isn't perfect

One thing: you don't have to use all 400+ whp all the time. You can think of any engine setup in terms of horsepower-hours (every engine has a given amount). Once you use it up, you're done. I mean, how fast do you really need to get to the grocery store

cptpain

iTrader: (1)

you dont need ceramic apex seals.. they dont seal well below 5k rpm. ... you dont need an aggressive street port....you dont NEED any of this. you WANT.

the best way to get you to your power goals is to talk to a rotary mechanic such as Steve Kan to discuss what essentials you'll need to get there.... if you're looking for a lot of power..... you're going to have to sacrifice some reliability regardless of how perfect the tune is. you cant always have the best of everything.

and an FD with anything over 350 hp on the street is a bit overkill if youre going to drive it on a frequent basis... have you ever driven or rode in an fd with 400hp? its disorientating......

MrGreek

"Not even the best chef can't turn a turd into a nice steak no matter what seasoning he uses... " cptpain ...

that's beautiful man

zenofspeed

iTrader: (1)

CPtpain, what are you talking about? Of course it is what I want, not what I need... Who NEEDS an rx7 to begin with? FYI - "disorientating" is not a word.

I've ridden in a 550whp+ FD and I don't want that much. My car is currently 310whp and had properly running stock twins for quite a while at that power level.. The primary is now under boosting and compression is falling (currently 75 front, 85 back). If I stay rotary, I want the compression to hold for longer (IE rotor housings and seals, etc.)

420whp is not an arbitrary number that I'm throwing out there. It is what I want in my FD. I don't intend to run 420whp everyday. That would be on high boost with alky/water. The low boost setting would be more around 360whp and the alky/water wouldn't even kick-in. I appreciate the comments in regards to running lower boost, it is already in the plans. I've talked to Steve but didn't want to use any more of his time on the phone..

Can anyone else confirm that ceramic seals don't seal well under 5k? I thought that was more of a 3mm vs 2mm issue...

I also have 3 other vehicles: 91 MR2 turbo (was 270whp, now back to 235), 07 600rr, 87 CRX (NO MODS). So the FD isn't my only car. It is the one I take to the track and drive when I feel like it. Working AC, PS, Sound system, etc.. I take the CRX to work mostly. 42mpg.

It is almost like when you start saying "I want a more powerful yet reliable rotary," people around here get offended at the very thought. lol. Anyway, I haven't talked to Hinson yet. I think I'll call them today and get some input about other possibilities.

Thanks,

Zero R

iTrader: (1)

This thread has some good reading in it

Copeland

iTrader: (42)

I think you can get high mileage out of your car.

Just treat it right and don't beat on that 420whp everyday.

If you use your car only to drive the hell out of it you're not going to get too far before you'll need another engine.

If you use your car to cruise and to blast every once in awhile you'll get enough mileage out of it that you'll just rebuild it out of either wanting to change your setup or paranoia.

Remember to always drive slowly until it is fully warmed up. Make sure the oil is warmed up too, just because your idle drops and your coolant gauge is good doesn't mean the oil is warmed up. Keep it tuned up, change your oil according to how you drive, and make sure you get good gas before you boost. Nothing too hard.

I recommend a permanent wideband o2 install, oil temp, fuel pres, water temp, and boost gauge. Get a good tune and you'll be happy.

zenofspeed

iTrader: (1)

Oh good idea on the extra gauges. I've got everything other than the Wideband and fuel pressure. I do have a narrow band installed.