Motor or Turbos?
05-07-04, 06:38 PM
#1
Motor or Turbos?
I finally think it is time to rebuild the motor or could it be the turbos? Everything was going great so far...then today, I went out to start my car, it started right up, and then came the smoke....tons of it. All White!!! Smells like pure gas though, not very sweet, and no coolant buzzer, and the coolant level is full. Not sure what else it could be. It is smoking immensely out the exhaust and around the turbos area some.
On my last blown coolant seal, it would quit smoking after it burned all the coolant out, maybe 3-4 minutes or so....but this one is non-stop smoke for over 15 minutes, the more you rev, the more it smokes.....and I liet it warm up completely, drove it around the block, etc...and all it did was smoke tons of white smoke out the *** and through the vented hood.
Could I have blown a Turbo Oil seal? I know that should be blue smoke...but that is more what it seems like then a coolant seal, but that's just a guess....my old GSX blew a turbo seal, and it poured out smoke just like this...and it wouldn't stop either...no matter how long you drove it. I am kind of leaning that way, but I am not ruling out the motor since it is White smoke.
It started right up though...no slow start or anything, which my last FD with a blown seal struggled when I started it up with a blown seal. Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Scott
On my last blown coolant seal, it would quit smoking after it burned all the coolant out, maybe 3-4 minutes or so....but this one is non-stop smoke for over 15 minutes, the more you rev, the more it smokes.....and I liet it warm up completely, drove it around the block, etc...and all it did was smoke tons of white smoke out the *** and through the vented hood.
Could I have blown a Turbo Oil seal? I know that should be blue smoke...but that is more what it seems like then a coolant seal, but that's just a guess....my old GSX blew a turbo seal, and it poured out smoke just like this...and it wouldn't stop either...no matter how long you drove it. I am kind of leaning that way, but I am not ruling out the motor since it is White smoke.
It started right up though...no slow start or anything, which my last FD with a blown seal struggled when I started it up with a blown seal. Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Scott
05-07-04, 09:22 PM
#4
My oil is about half way down the dipstick....and I checked it this past weekend on Sunday when leaving the Revolution and it was full....so I have burnt/lost about 1 qt. since Sunday.
I am really leaning towards the turbos being messed up because I just checked the coolant after it cooled down and it was still full, maybe 1" below the cap on the water pump neck which is full to me. So I don't think it is the motor really....but I guess I can't be sure. All the makes the me think it is the motor is the white smoke.....but there is no loss of coolant, no buzzer, no sweet smell....just white smoke. And even though oil is supposed to be blueish colored...my GSX blew the turbo and it was solid white as well.
I will check for shaft play on the front turbo and see if I can feel much...but how else would I check the turbos for seal problems?
Edit: also, I noticed maybe 1-2 weeks ago that my car would not like to boost above 8psi. It had been running really good at 11-12psi, pulling really hard...and then all of a sudden, it would stumble really bad at 11-12 psi, I had to turn it down to like 7psi to get it to hold a solid boost pressure in all gears. At 11psi, it would do good in 1st and most of 2nd, but 3rd and 4th were horrible....stumbled like fuel cut, so I had to let out and get back on it to continue boosting. But it drove home great from the Revolution, raced a Vette, did great, etc.....then all of a sudden today, it all has went to ****.
Scott
I am really leaning towards the turbos being messed up because I just checked the coolant after it cooled down and it was still full, maybe 1" below the cap on the water pump neck which is full to me. So I don't think it is the motor really....but I guess I can't be sure. All the makes the me think it is the motor is the white smoke.....but there is no loss of coolant, no buzzer, no sweet smell....just white smoke. And even though oil is supposed to be blueish colored...my GSX blew the turbo and it was solid white as well.
I will check for shaft play on the front turbo and see if I can feel much...but how else would I check the turbos for seal problems?
Edit: also, I noticed maybe 1-2 weeks ago that my car would not like to boost above 8psi. It had been running really good at 11-12psi, pulling really hard...and then all of a sudden, it would stumble really bad at 11-12 psi, I had to turn it down to like 7psi to get it to hold a solid boost pressure in all gears. At 11psi, it would do good in 1st and most of 2nd, but 3rd and 4th were horrible....stumbled like fuel cut, so I had to let out and get back on it to continue boosting. But it drove home great from the Revolution, raced a Vette, did great, etc.....then all of a sudden today, it all has went to ****.
Scott
Last edited by lane_change; 05-07-04 at 09:25 PM.
05-08-04, 03:54 AM
#6
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I am having the exact same problem with my car, I replaced the turbos with "newer" ones and still have the same problem. From what I have been able to find out, it might be the PCV valve going from the oil fill to the UIM. I havent had a chance to test it yet though, so keep us informed with your progress.
05-08-04, 07:08 AM
#7
Does anyone have any tips on how to check certain parts w/o removing the engine or turbo assembly? I will be checking shaft play and all that of course, but in order to really see where the leak is, how would I check? or would it simply just be a process of elimination?
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05-08-04, 07:54 AM
#8
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Not very likely that your Turbo(s) is leaking coolant "into" the bearing housing and out through the Turbines. This can only happen if a crack developes in the water chambers located in the housing.
Possible, but not probable.
If the O-Ring and/or the Plate Seal is worn, the Compressor Housing will have oil smudge build-up all around the Compressor Wheel and in the Housing where it connects to the y-pipe. Take off the Crossover Tube and check for abnormal oil build-up in the Y-Pipe. Also, take the Primary Turbo air inlet (small elbow connecting to the intake pipe) and check the Wheel for oil soot in the area.
When the Turbine Seals are worn, you'll usually find evidence of oil soot/smudge all aroung the external area of the Bearing Housing. But the only way to properly check for a leak in the Turbine side, is to pull the Turbo assembly and take it all apart
If you're running stock sequential configuration try this..
Pick a nice long dry empty road with no pedestrian activity on the sidewalk. Launch the car WOT.
Check for exhaust smoke before transition occurs. If no smoke is evident, the Primary Turbo is probably okay. If a lot of black or blue smoke is noted, then do the following....
Next drive the car and excellerate normally up to 3000-3500 rpm, ..then go WOT. Check for exhaust smoke AFTER secondary transition (around 4500 rpm). If no smoke is evident, your secondary turbo is probably okay. If a lot of black or blue smoke is noted, then the diagnosis is probably...
1)- Heavy smoke during WOT in both Primary and Secondary Turbo pulls indicate: bad Turbos and/or bad engine.
2)- Bad Turbo (primary or secondary) if smoke only occured during it's designated rpm range pull.
Possible, but not probable.
Originally posted by lane_change
...but how else would I check the turbos for seal problems?
Scott
...but how else would I check the turbos for seal problems?
Scott
When the Turbine Seals are worn, you'll usually find evidence of oil soot/smudge all aroung the external area of the Bearing Housing. But the only way to properly check for a leak in the Turbine side, is to pull the Turbo assembly and take it all apart
If you're running stock sequential configuration try this..
Pick a nice long dry empty road with no pedestrian activity on the sidewalk. Launch the car WOT.
Check for exhaust smoke before transition occurs. If no smoke is evident, the Primary Turbo is probably okay. If a lot of black or blue smoke is noted, then do the following....
Next drive the car and excellerate normally up to 3000-3500 rpm, ..then go WOT. Check for exhaust smoke AFTER secondary transition (around 4500 rpm). If no smoke is evident, your secondary turbo is probably okay. If a lot of black or blue smoke is noted, then the diagnosis is probably...
1)- Heavy smoke during WOT in both Primary and Secondary Turbo pulls indicate: bad Turbos and/or bad engine.
2)- Bad Turbo (primary or secondary) if smoke only occured during it's designated rpm range pull.
Last edited by areXseven; 05-08-04 at 07:57 AM.
05-08-04, 10:53 AM
#10
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Originally posted by ISUposs
If you take your downpipe off, you will be able to see the turbine wheels if the shaft play test is inconclusive.
If you take your downpipe off, you will be able to see the turbine wheels if the shaft play test is inconclusive.
BTW, Good advise.
Last edited by areXseven; 05-08-04 at 10:56 AM.
05-08-04, 11:04 AM
#11
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I would pull the primary intake off to see the turbo inlet and shaft. I was going to say you might have a bad Boost sensor untill you said how much smoke was comming out the hood, well, everywhere. As far as the PCV going bad, not the cause with that much smoke. You also need to pull the trailing plugs out and take a look. Go from there and then post your findings.
05-08-04, 11:34 AM
#12
Senior Member
well i have the same exact problem except my oil level never really dropped, but i have only went a maximum of about 1.5 miles since the car has no insurance,registration and expired tags. anyway the car would smoke lightly on startupand once hot would start to progressively smoke worse especially after revving and achieving boost then coming down on deccel. i elminated the pcv valve awhile ago so ruled that out. all of my intake pipes are dry so it's not blowing oil on the intake side like my old turbos. at this point it was between the engine and the exhaust side of the turbos leaking oil. i then removed the turbos from the engine and rerouted the water and oil feed lines so i could start the engine and let it run minus the turbos. i started the engine and the smoking problem was non existant. i revved the engine like i would do when the turbos where on and got very little smoke which was nothing like i was getting with the turbos on and most likely is cause of the microtech i have running the car has an untuned map currently. at this point i'm 100% positve it was the turbos since i no longer have smoke at idle or the amount i was gettingduring revs. if anyone is willing to try the method i did please make sure the oil line is dumping back into the filler neck and secure! don't wanna hear any horror stories.
05-09-04, 11:39 PM
#13
Ok, well I pulled the plugs out...they are dry as a bone....I checked the coolant level again, still almost full...maybe a shot glass low, nothing I haven't seen before. I pulled the IC off, it is clean inside the pipes. I removed the intake system, they are also both clean inside the pipes. I checked the primary turbo for any oil residue...very little to no residue on the compressor or in the plastic inlet duct. I do have quite a bit of shaft play, both side to side and in and out. Not a ton...but enough to feel and hear.
I have not gotten around to pulling the DP off to check the turbine shaft...maybe tomorrow. About the smoke under the hood....it is more than likely just smoke leaking from around the DP gasket or around that area. The turbos themselves do not appear to be smoking out the intake or bov or anything....but just smoke coming from around that general area. And it is not tons...but enough to notice. But the smoke coming out my exhaust is very similar to the ATF trick kind of smoke....like a volcano or something. I am going to try and turn the car over with the plugs out and the EGI fuse pulled to see if I can see much vapor being sprayed out the holes.
If it is not the motor....and not the turbos, what else could it be? What else could cause smoke like that? I mean, for smoke to occur, you must have some form of liquid burning, ie: fuel, oil, coolant, etc...this smoke is white like coolant, smells like gas, and smokes like oil. Go figure.
I have not gotten around to pulling the DP off to check the turbine shaft...maybe tomorrow. About the smoke under the hood....it is more than likely just smoke leaking from around the DP gasket or around that area. The turbos themselves do not appear to be smoking out the intake or bov or anything....but just smoke coming from around that general area. And it is not tons...but enough to notice. But the smoke coming out my exhaust is very similar to the ATF trick kind of smoke....like a volcano or something. I am going to try and turn the car over with the plugs out and the EGI fuse pulled to see if I can see much vapor being sprayed out the holes.
If it is not the motor....and not the turbos, what else could it be? What else could cause smoke like that? I mean, for smoke to occur, you must have some form of liquid burning, ie: fuel, oil, coolant, etc...this smoke is white like coolant, smells like gas, and smokes like oil. Go figure.
05-10-04, 09:02 PM
#16
Did who fix it? No, I have not fixed anything....I did not have any time today to take the downpipe off to check the turbine out. I am debating buying a new set of turbos....but if that's not the problem, I would hate to have spent X amount of dollars on turbos when I could have used that money to fix the "real" problem, whatever that may be. Plus, I kind of would just want to go single when my turbos go out as opposed to buying another set of twins and then going single later this year. I just can't afford everything all at once, and the priority it to get the car running again.
So if anyone has any ideas on where to look or what to check, please drop your .02.
Thanks,
Scott
So if anyone has any ideas on where to look or what to check, please drop your .02.
Thanks,
Scott
05-11-04, 02:55 AM
#17
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Lane Change did you check your PCV valve? I know someone said that it wouldn't smoke that much if it was your PCV valve, but others have had that problem and said they had lots of smoke. I ordered a new one for my car, I will let you know if that fixes my problem, when I am able to get my car put back together.
05-11-04, 07:54 AM
#19
Well I checked the PCV valve and it appears to be ok....no missing lines or any visible cracks. I just read on here to check it you should start the car and take off the oil cap and see if that eliminates the smoke.....I don't think that will be the case, I can't imagine that much crankcase pressure building up and smoking like that...maybe some smoke, but not ATF style smoke. I am going to pull the turbos off and check them out later on.
I also checked the boost sensor just to make sure, and the vacuum lines were still connected to it and all that, not that I thought this was boost related, but what the hell. I might as well go full non sequential now, eliminate the rats nest and all the vacuum lines with it, and replace the rest with silicone while I am at it.
I also checked the boost sensor just to make sure, and the vacuum lines were still connected to it and all that, not that I thought this was boost related, but what the hell. I might as well go full non sequential now, eliminate the rats nest and all the vacuum lines with it, and replace the rest with silicone while I am at it.
05-11-04, 06:34 PM
#20
I pulled the Y-pipe and the Downpipe off and there is oil on the bottom for the primary turbo runner on the Y-pipe....and when I pulled the DP off, there was wet oil sitting on the bottom of the tubo mani and inside the DP some...leaking out around the bottom front DP bolt...it was wert.
I felt inside the turbos and I could feel the secondary turbo shaft and it is not really all that bad as far as shaft play goes....neither is the compressor side of the secondary turbo, but the primary turbo has shaft play on the compressor side pretty bad, has oil leakage going into the Y-pipe some, and also had the oil residue around the DP and mani in that area....but I could not feel the turbine shaft or see it for that matter. I am debating pulling the turbos off, but I am not looking forward to the mess of coolant and oil everywhere if I do pull them off.
Based on this little bit more evidence, does anyone have any rough conclusions or ideas?
I felt inside the turbos and I could feel the secondary turbo shaft and it is not really all that bad as far as shaft play goes....neither is the compressor side of the secondary turbo, but the primary turbo has shaft play on the compressor side pretty bad, has oil leakage going into the Y-pipe some, and also had the oil residue around the DP and mani in that area....but I could not feel the turbine shaft or see it for that matter. I am debating pulling the turbos off, but I am not looking forward to the mess of coolant and oil everywhere if I do pull them off.
Based on this little bit more evidence, does anyone have any rough conclusions or ideas?
05-11-04, 07:38 PM
#21
I am currently trying to remove my turbo assembly....but while looking around, I also notice a small puddle of oil sitting in the compressor housing of the primary turbo....when you look in through the top, where the Y-pipe attaches, you can see a puddle of oil. I am almost positive my problem lies in that turbo. So they are coming off. But I need some penetrating lube to conitnue, those damn nuts/studs holding the turbo onto the manifold are tight as all hell. I have all but two removed (I think), but those last two are damn near impossible to get off, and I don't want to risk stripping them any more since I slipped once, but hopefully they will be off tonight or tomorrow.
Could that oil mean anything? Does it tip anyone off other than me and the logical assumption that everything combined on that one turbo is the cause of all that smoke?
Could that oil mean anything? Does it tip anyone off other than me and the logical assumption that everything combined on that one turbo is the cause of all that smoke?
05-12-04, 01:44 AM
#22
R.A.O.S.!!!
hey bro! my car does the same thing! i'm also wondering what to do with it right now... for now im thinking a full engine rebuild w/ streetporting and bigger seals ... for a grand whopping total of close to 5 thousand.... it'll probably take me about close to a year to get this project done but hey.... i feel your pain bro.... keep it clean 
and good luck
my turbos still sound good i dont believe there is anything wrong with them.... the white smoke seems to be comming from a broken coolant seal so i think its time to rebuild.... the prior owner of my 7 hardly knew shizznit about his car and probably ran it hard all the time... when i first bought it and drove for long trips it would leak oil and smoke a lot , you would get the oil burning smell and smoke comming out the engine bay and under the car where the oil was comming out ... i probably think the rotor seals are wearing out also and i just replaced the oil-pan gasket and i still have a leak.... i think the best thing to do for my car is to replace the old motor with a street ported one and rebuild the blown engine with new parts so i could have two motors around the house just in case i need it.... sux tho .... my car only has 66,000 original miles on it.... and the paint and interior still looks really good.... i just wish that the engine would have lasted a little longer .... oh well these cars weren't meant to be cheap ..... so i say go for the gusto if you can afford it... i am.... or trying to do so... in the end it's all worth every penny of it
and good luck my turbos still sound good i dont believe there is anything wrong with them.... the white smoke seems to be comming from a broken coolant seal so i think its time to rebuild.... the prior owner of my 7 hardly knew shizznit about his car and probably ran it hard all the time... when i first bought it and drove for long trips it would leak oil and smoke a lot , you would get the oil burning smell and smoke comming out the engine bay and under the car where the oil was comming out ... i probably think the rotor seals are wearing out also and i just replaced the oil-pan gasket and i still have a leak.... i think the best thing to do for my car is to replace the old motor with a street ported one and rebuild the blown engine with new parts so i could have two motors around the house just in case i need it.... sux tho .... my car only has 66,000 original miles on it.... and the paint and interior still looks really good.... i just wish that the engine would have lasted a little longer .... oh well these cars weren't meant to be cheap ..... so i say go for the gusto if you can afford it... i am.... or trying to do so... in the end it's all worth every penny of it
Last edited by 93'roadwarrior; 05-12-04 at 02:03 AM.
05-12-04, 03:56 AM
#23
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Hey Scott, well it sounds like are problems might be a little different after all. I am pretty sure its not the turbos on my car, because I replaced them with newer ones that are in good condition and still have the same problem. Also there are 8 bolts that hold the turbos to the exhaust manifold (7 14mm and 1 12mm) if that helps you at all. I sprayed some PB blaster and them a few times to get them off. Good luck man.
05-12-04, 07:17 AM
#24
I went for the gusto last time on my old FD....dropped over $12k all at once on a new motor, single, fmic, fuel system, etc...not going to do that again. I will take it easy this time, piece by piece....enjoy the process instead of having a hair pulling year long rebuild. I found a set of BNR stage 2 twins that I am going to go with....hopefully that solves my problem, if not....well, that will just suck. I have 4 14mm off and 1 12 mm off so far....2 14mm's are stuck as hell....and I have not seen the 7th one yet, I will find it I'm sure.
