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I don't think that's true, became my '97 already has 4 wheel speed sensors. '99 ABS is supposed to be a full 4 channel system with individual brake control. I don't have a parts diagram handy but that would solve the question.
This is not true, all FD's have a single line that splits in the rear. 4 channel simply means the system monitors each wheel speed independently.
The newer FD pumps are significantly faster and work better compared to the original 92-94 pumps. The same can be said for these newer MK60's.
^Minor correction here - 4 channel ABS means braking hydraulics on all 4 wheels are independently controlled. Even the older 3 channel ABS systems on the 93 - 95 USDM FDs had a sensor monitoring each wheel, but since the rears shared the same hydraulic circuit, they weren't individually controllable despite having a sensor for each rear wheel.
Yeah, one would think later models have independent lines to the rear, but I just got done combing a late model parts catalogue, and the diagrams say they don't. If someone can produce a diagram and part numbers for these independent lines, especially the long ones that run under the car, that would be cool.
^Minor correction here - 4 channel ABS means braking hydraulics on all 4 wheels are independently controlled. Even the older 3 channel ABS systems on the 93 - 95 USDM FDs had a sensor monitoring each wheel, but since the rears shared the same hydraulic circuit, they weren't individually controllable despite having a sensor for each rear wheel.
Originally Posted by ptrhahn
Yeah, one would think later models have independent lines to the rear, but I just got done combing a late model parts catalogue, and the diagrams say they don't. If someone can produce a diagram and part numbers for these independent lines, especially the long ones that run under the car, that would be cool.
I have had the pumps from all gen's in my hand. They all have a single line going to the rear. All have 4 sensors, one at each wheel.
well just making sure you saw the link I posted for using cunifer material for hard line tubing and also understand that bending the lines and flaring the ends is way easier than the past traditional hard line material. You don’t even need a bender except for very short radius bends. This was bent by hand and corrosion resistance is better than stainless steel without all the difficulty. That company link also stocks all the fittings too:
What brake MC are folks using (or planning to use) for this?
The stock braking system has a single line going to the rear subframe, which then branches into either rear wheel. If that junction was replaced by a machined part joined the line(s) from the front to each wheel's line, but kept them separate then realistically you could use that original line as one channel, and just make one additional line (or buy a second OEM line) to run parallel to the original and act as the other channel.
Please forgive the horrible run on sentence, but it seems like this could be an easy(er) solution than making all brand new lines. Once my shop starts on my car again I'll ask them about machining that part, then making duplicates for others to buy.
I'll be using as much of the existing line as possible. I have the RZ/Spirit R bakes using the stock master, I'd like to move to a slightly larger master but this doesn't effect the ABS function.
The stock or CSL programming only senses line pressure it does't know if you're using a 1" or 10" master. It might affect the "knock-back" feel, which is how much feedback you get thought the pedal when ABS in engaged, but functionally it's the same no matter which master you are using.
The Motorsports flash has 4 levels of adjustable knock-back. This means you can tune it to the master size you are using and how much feel you want. I'm unsure if this effects the actual on/off/on/off action of the ABS, or simply the pedal feel. Either way, the Motorsports flash allows a ton more customization/optimization, and it should for $1,800
Thanks for bringing this up as a possible solution - I was going through the mental exercise to validate the Bosch Unit or leaving it manual for my stupid project. I need to solidify the calipers before taking the plunge but glad theres more potential options.
Appears RHT is the source in my 15 min search - Any other companies to also research?
So then what is special about the later pumps? Nothing?
Ecus got progressively smaller for a few grams saved - with the last one mounting on the pump rather than in the hatch to save on wire weight, I assume the processing speed improved over the years too. In practice though, someone who is a fairly accomplished steerer and drove all 5 or 6 versions of ABS, said there are no earth shattering improvements discernible.
Making lines is no great difficulty unless there's tight bends, or you want to spec green ones like stock. Straightening coiled 3/16 tube to make it look presentable is usually the tricky bit!
Rears are easy. Using the BMW sensors, I slightly widened the mounting hole and they fit perfect.
The fronts though. Sensor is way too short. Maybe it can read from the side? The BMW sensor is also slightly fatter than the FD part, but the plastic body has ridges that can be shaved down to fit, the actual sensor body is slim enough no worries. If the sensor can’t read accurately from the side…. we are gonna have a bad time.
In the time since I ordered the MK60, prices have more than doubled. It’s become the only allowable ABS in certain classes, and the 813.3 units are very scarce. With e46 m3 prices soaring, the supply has all but dried up.
However. The Mk60e5 unit comes in many many different cars in a bunch of different flavors. These require magnetic tone rings and a few other extra bits to work, but a lot of progress has been made to get these working in many chassis as a stand alone ABS. If my mk60 works well, I might be putting the mk60e5 into a few other cars. I’ll update the progress as it goes. It’s definitely more effort vs the mk60, but it is also $1000-$2000 cheaper. Mk60e5 also has more CAN connected potential for those who want to datalog pressure etc, but it’s far from plug-and-play.
I’ll update as I go. I’ve always been a big supporter of proper ABS in cars, especially street cars.
At this point, I'm just working on spec'ing the flex lines to make all the fluid connections. I had this bracket made to mount the unit next to the MC, and clear out all the space where the OEM ABS mounted. If Anyone wants this, you're welcome to the drawing, I had it made at SendCutSend out of ABS... whatever material you use, it needs to be thick enough to countersink the M6 screws on the back.
I don't think that's true, became my '97 already has 4 wheel speed sensors. '99 ABS is supposed to be a full 4 channel system with individual brake control. I don't have a parts diagram handy but that would solve the question.
Originally Posted by mr2peak
So then what is special about the later pumps? Nothing?
Firstly, let's avoid referring to 99 spec. There were two models from Japan from 99 on: version 5 and version 6 and there were many differences between them.
The information in my post on the first page of this was not quite right. I had relied on some second hand information but went back to the original Mazda brochures from Japan and the parts fiche and have got to know my own late 2002 Spirit R.
Mazda described all of its ABS system as 4 wheel ABS - because there is ABS measurement at all 4 wheels and the ABS affects both rear wheels - just not independently. As pointed out, all FD have four ABS sensors and a single shared hydraulic line to the rear. I have verified this on my car.
The 99-00 (version 5) ABS used a lighter weight ABS module with better ECU, but still 8 bit. But other than that, identical to all previous iterations of the FD.
The version 6 model (Sept 00 to Aug 02) ABS went to a Bosch 16 bit ABS module with EBD. But despite being described as 4 wheel in the literature, it is still 3 channel. The module has 5 ports - 2 inlet from the master cylinder, then individual outlet to the each front wheel and a single shared outlet to the rear wheels. I can take a photo if anyone wants.
I’ve got mk60e5 going into my cars. Units are plentiful and low cost. Not to mention, wheel speed sensors are dirt cheap compared to Mazda ones if you have to replace a cooked one. It also has 4 wheel speed outputs that can be ported into the engine’s ECU (haltech in my case) so you don’t need extra speed sensors for it.
front magnetic tone ring throws a bit of a hook into things. But I have a plan for that.
Magnetic sensor The stock tone ring can be pulled off easily. Will turn that down to match the inner diameter of the magnetic ring, then reinstall and press the magnetic ring onto it Mk60e5 Yaw sensor
At this point, I'm just working on spec'ing the flex lines to make all the fluid connections. I had this bracket made to mount the unit next to the MC, and clear out all the space where the OEM ABS mounted. If Anyone wants this, you're welcome to the drawing, I had it made at SendCutSend out of ABS... whatever material you use, it needs to be thick enough to countersink the M6 screws on the back.
Peter, where you have yours mounted, does it clear the brake booster?
@TwinCharged RX7 Thanks for sharing your findings. Really neat to see it done on one of these cars. Does the MK60E5 require CANBUS integration? I haven't been able to figure out if it is absolutely necessary for it to work.
