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My friends and I have been talking about this system. $10k. The OP already mentioned it, but it's the same system used in the 2003-2006 BMW E46 M3 if you're trying to save some money.
^^ I've heard of some guys swapping the Bosch unit for a Teves unit on cup cars, apparently the Teves is better able to detect a spin and temporarily disable wheel locking.
I've actually been collecting the parts to do this swap for a while, I have fit Mk60 to a 944 and a customer's 986 GTU race car previously. The hard lines to the rear are the biggest pita atm.
The DSC does not work unless you fit the BMW steering angle sensor or an aftermarket sensor and a DSC emulator with the motorsport firmware. Even then, it's not something that I would really want as it isn't calibrated for the RX7.
One of the biggest benefits of doing this swap is the ability to have a custom motorsport firmware made to suit your car's exact wheel/brake/weight combo. You also get a complete CAN communication table. The motorsport programming really is kind of cheat code stuff, the driver does little more than provide the mechanical force to the hydraulic circuit, the ABS then regulates each wheel to a -10% to -15% slip ratio. It also removes the possibility of encountering ice mode. You have to use the right module to begin with and the programming is expensive, but it is good stuff.
Having a properly tuned DSC would be wonderful for the street. Steering angle sensor can’t be overly difficult to mount. Might need to be programmed for the steering ratio?
Hence why I specified the difference. Even though the non-programmable unit is still plenty solid on performance. (I have one of each)
Originally Posted by ninesixtwo
You also don't need to use the BMW master cylinder or steering angle sensor and the yaw sensor is very straightforward to mount.
Yaw sensor, yes. Just mount it appropriately.
Steering angle is not required for ABS functionality, but according to some of the BMW training documentation, is required for full functionality of the DSC aspect of the system.
The master cylinder is not required, but the brake pressure sensors are. I am looking into using the master since it has the brake pressure sensor ports built in and would make for a cleaner install. However, it has some difference in piston size (25mm front, 20mm rear) but that may not be a bad thing since there is no direct proportioning valve. Either way, I'm going to give it a shot.
Having a properly tuned DSC would be wonderful for the street. Steering angle sensor can’t be overly difficult to mount. Might need to be programmed for the steering ratio?
e46 m3: 3.2 turns (ZCP) lock to lock or 3.0 turns lock to lock depending on zcp or not. Both have 150 mm of travel, calculated at 50mm per revolution (47mm/turn for the zcp). But this may vary based on source and I am only now diving into this topic to an appreciable extent. The published ratio of the e46 m3 non zcp is 15.4:1 and the zcp is 14.5:1. (degrees input wheel rotation for 1 degree road wheel angle.
FD: 2.9 turns lock to lock. published rate of 16.6:1
It appears the the ratio would be off in so much as the computer would think the wheels are turned more than they actually are without some sort of reprogramming. One Option is to change the knuckle attachment point, but this seems like something I'd want to avoid. Another option is to look into the reprogramming. I am willing to bet it's possible as the same module/sensor gets utilized on different vehicle trim levels, which tells me its not the sensor, its the receiver and what it does with the signal.
It doesn't seem ,like a big deal until we do the math. The non-zcp programming will think the wheels are turned 7.23% more than they actually are, and the zcp programming will think the wheels are turned 12.65% further than they actually are. This would lead to the system intervening more often than it is supposed to. Examples: when the steering wheel is turned 180 degrees, the zcp computer will think the front wheels are at 12.414 degrees when they are actually at 10.843 degrees (not accounting for toe and the resultant compound calculation). Without knowing what parameters the software intervenes at, we can't reliably say that this difference is meaningful or meaningless. I can only assume that a difference of greater than 10% may be problematic? (But I could easily be wrong).
I’ve actually been looking into this from RHT Motorsport which offers the module, sensors and programming for about $3,500. The only thing they do not offer is the physical side in brake lines and mounting. That is the only thing I’m worried about in terms of downtime for fab work. Would definitely be interested in a installation kit for it.
I’ve actually been looking into this from RHT Motorsport which offers the module, sensors and programming for about $3,500. The only thing they do not offer is the physical side in brake lines and mounting. That is the only thing I’m worried about in terms of downtime for fab work. Would definitely be interested in a installation kit for it.
These guys are right up the road. Getting some local fab work for a mount and lines wouldn't be too difficult, and once done they could likely make it a full kit. If they'd work with us to get the initial set up done, I'd gladly give them the designs of physical stuff.
These guys are right up the road. Getting some local fab work for a mount and lines wouldn't be too difficult, and once done they could likely make it a full kit. If they'd work with us to get the initial set up done, I'd gladly give them the designs of physical stuff.
I don’t think they want to get into the physical side. They have said they have already done the programming for a couple RX-7s so they have base maps already. Just need to figure out the locations and mounting. I’d usually be down as the Guinea Pig but my car has been down long enough and I only want to mess with it over winters.
I don’t think they want to get into the physical side. They have said they have already done the programming for a couple RX-7s so they have base maps already. Just need to figure out the locations and mounting. I’d usually be down as the Guinea Pig but my car has been down long enough and I only want to mess with it over winters.
Same, but this looks like the sort of thing I could get all set up, and install over this winter. Mounting seems relatively simple.
Same, but this looks like the sort of thing I could get all set up, and install over this winter. Mounting seems relatively simple.
Im not the greatest fab person myself and all of the shops around me (NY now) have been slow as hell which is my hesitancy. Took them 4-5 months to do full radiator and oil cooler shrouding for me.
hmmm...
I have a friend with an e46 M3 pro built race car running Hoosiers that had ABS. His got into a "black ice" scenario and sent him into the tire wall at Sonoma.
It might be better than Mazda's circa 1990s ABS technology but not sure it is that much better....
I pulled the trigger on the RHT kit. MK60E1 with the CSL flash and yaw sensor. I will not be using DCS initially, DSC needs the steering angle sensor and a live CAN connection which you can feed it with an emulator. Maybe I will add that in the future. The rear E46 wheel speed sensors should fit the FD without too much trouble, I will use them in the front and back. The ABS unit uses 3/16 brake hard lines just like the FD. Unsure about the flare types. BMW E46 has a 48 tooth front and rear ABS ring, the FD is 44 tooth f&r. That is close enough
The MK60E5 is getting more popular as a stand alone ABS. The main benefit is aero compensation. It also gives a lot more information though CAN and has built-in pressure sensors making the install even easier. However, the MK60E5 requires a full Motorsports flash to function, and that just about doubles the cost. You also need to know what your wheel/tire size will be along with brake pistons sizes and a few other things
I've been mulling around the idea of doing this since I saw the HPA video about it. My car is currently under the knife and already had the factory ABS stripped out. So now would be the perfect time to do it. The only partbthat would hurt is that I already bought new FD wheel speed sensors, those guys were NOT cheap if I recall.
Last edited by fendamonky; Dec 15, 2022 at 03:45 PM.
I've been mulling around the idea of doing this since I saw the HPA video about it. My car is currently under the knife and already had the factory ABS stripped out. So now would be the perfect time to do it. The only partbthat would hurt is that I already bought new FD wheel speed sensors, those guys were NOT cheap if I recall.
I struck out on an install/fabrication shop thus far, as Piper no longer does this type of work. It would need a unit mounting bracket, power it, and all new hardlines fabbed and run, and I wouldn't trust just any ding-dong to bend/flare lines.
Do you mean they will bolt straight on to the FD? Number of teeth doesn't matter to the sensor. Have you tested them with the MK60? I don't think the RX8 sensors are the same type of sensors.
I've spoken with RHT, who's done it with RX8 sensors so it's an easy conversion. The rears will bolt up with nothing more than a washer as a spacer. The fronts will require a simple L bracket to point it correctly at the ring.
I struck out on an install/fabrication shop thus far, as Piper no longer does this type of work. It would need a unit mounting bracket, power it, and all new hardlines fabbed and run, and I wouldn't trust just any ding-dong to bend/flare lines.
I feel you on the lack of competent, and trustworthy, shops... I ended up trailering my FD out to California for work. The shop I'm using is super OCD, they're damned good with wiring and fabrication. As a bonus, there is a full machine shop next door to them which they have full access to.
Originally Posted by ptrhahn
I've spoken with RHT, who's done it with RX8 sensors so it's an easy conversion. The rears will bolt up with nothing more than a washer as a spacer. The fronts will require a simple L bracket to point it correctly at the ring.
Hmmm... did they confirm that the RX7 sensors will *not* work with the MK60?
So strange he didn't mention the RX8 sensors to me. If the BMW rears are harder to fit, at least I have options I guess. Just need to get everything installed so I have measurements for the wiring harness
I struck out on an install/fabrication shop thus far, as Piper no longer does this type of work. It would need a unit mounting bracket, power it, and all new hardlines fabbed and run, and I wouldn't trust just any ding-dong to bend/flare lines.
pretty simple if you use cunifer hard-lines, also for good for alcohol fuel lines too
