It isn't necessary for basic ABS, but it is necessary to wake up the CAN stream for data. If you want DSC, you'll need CAN wakeup for all MK60 versions (and a steering angle sensor, possibly re-coded for the FD steering rack ratio). That is how I understand it.

CAN is only useful for logging, the wheel speed outputs aren't fast enough for traction control through the ECU. BMW uses the ABS system for torque reduction requests directly. So far I haven't found anyone who has re-engineered this portion of the ABS, but adding active traction control through an OEM system is bound to happen eventually, and that would be really neat!

I'm actually considering selling my MK60 CSL flashed unit, the NASA rules have pushed the prices so high I can swap it for a MK60E5 with custom firmware. But that requires a fully set up chassis for the ABS tune, and too many things are still undecided.

FYI, with the full Motorsports (custom) flash you can run standard wheel speed sensors, no mag rings required. A bit easier to set up and less to go wrong. But certainly expensive, until more people figure out how to reverse engineer the firmware.

 

The Non-DSC RX8 ABS units are becoming popular with the Miata crowd as a MK60/E5 alternative. Apparently they can run standalone as well. So if you want to keep it Mazda, that could be a very good and much less expensive option.

There is a ton of new info out there since I started this journey.

 

Thanks for the info, mr2peak. The Sumitomo ABS on the non-dsc RX-8's looks appealing but I hadn't had much luck tracking one down previously. Might have to give it another try.

Just so I have this straight, If I want to use an E5 variant, I just need wheel speed input (from the magnetic tone rings) and power?

Thanks.

 

Wheel speeds, brake signal, power, and OBDII port for brake bleeding are the absolute basics. You also need INPA software or a handheld scanner for proper bleeding, like the Foxwell NT510.

The Yaw sensor is not strictly required, but shouldn't be left out because it helps detect spins and decreases the chance of ice mode. The goal is better ABS, the choice is yours.

MK60E5 will need mag sensors and mag rings instead of the stock tooth rings (unless you re-code it to use different sensors, but that is black box magic only a few people know how to do successfully).

And of course you'll need to run an extra brake line to the rear.

I don't know which MK60E5 is best. There are quite a few different ones, I don't know how much that even matters. I don't think they are as specific as the MK60 variants.

 

The e5 version can be recoded to use standard tooth rear sensors, but needs the mags in the front. Someone just came out with a small signal converter box though and for $350ish you can run stock sensors and converter the signal to work with the e5. My hesitation there is that it's some random engineer, if it ever fails, you may not have a replacement as it's a custom pcb. That's only reason I'm adapting the mag rings.

No need for CAN integration for the ABS to work. You do need OBD2 so you can do things like bleed the unit with INPA and recode for different rear sensors if not going with mags on the rear. I already have OBD2 for my DCT trans anyway, so I'm going to see if everything is on different pins and I can just use one OBD connector.

 

If you want to use the DSC (dynamic stability control) then you do need the steering angle sensor and CAN working. I haven't seen anyone try that. Integrating steering angle sensor is not a small feet.

 

Appreciate the info, TwinCharged and mr2peak!

I didn't realize it would be that straightforward to implement. Also found this thread over on the miataturbo forum that gave some good insight (start from post #210). https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...105851/page11/

I ended up purchasing an MK60E5 (860.3) from an E9X M3. I will more than likely be in contact when I am further along in my brake system redesign.

 

It's not that straightforward. You still need to mount the sensors and mag rings, or re-code. And run brake lines. At least the lines are the same diameter.

That Miata thread is the grail for info, but it's a long read. There's some much earlier info on Rennlist, the P car dudes were swapping mk60's way back.

The forum won't let me upload the wiring diagrams for some reason. But there's a very useful xlsx file out there with all the info on it, for MK60 and E5, CAN streams, etc. And a list of mag rings. All the hard work has been done to understand this in the last 2 years for non-professionals.

If you want DSC, recoding is highly recommended. Our steering rack ratio is different and will negatively impact DSC functions.

I'm leaving DSC untouched for my car, but a friend of mine has a mid-engined project and I want to get DSC working on that to help tame it.

ABS is one of those things that you don't miss until it's too late. Hope we see more conversions happening.

 

The plan is to implement the bare minimum stuff to have it function as a standalone (so the wheel speed sensors, yaw sensor and pump/controller). I initially really only wanted to prevent flat-spotting tires but also recognize that these modern systems are a huge performance advantage (and part of the reason those FIA GT3 cars are as capable as they are). I figure that if I eventually want to be competitive with those methed-up Camaros and Corvettes running around in NASA ST1-2 (and AER, for that matter), I am going to need all of the help I can get.

If the tone ring solution that TwinCharged is working on is successful, I'll do it that way. I did (am doing) a full redesign of my braking system centered around a dual master cylinder w/ balance bar and some Performance Friction ZR22 calipers that were appropriated from NASCAR and previous generation FIA GT3 cars, so now would be the time to do it as none of the OE braking components are being reused. If it ends up shaking down the way I think it will, I will have a very capable braking package.

Given that I will be running around sans interior (except for a dashboard), I have quite a bit more freedom in how things are mounted, but that is not to say that it can't be nicely done while retaining it as shown by ptrhahn's setup and another forum member whose name escapes me at the moment. Believe he had a V8 conversion running the earlier MK60 and was able to place the pump and controller in the footwell as he was running a DCT setup.

 

Yes it does. Works with factory everything except cruise control.

 

That's awesome. Any chance you can share the file? I held it up there initially and thought it might hit the booster

 

Great work guys. I am in the process of building a dedicated time attack / circuit car. Was thinking about implementing an ABS system however am at a loss of what I should be buying. Till now I was set on getting AP CP9660 6 pot front with 345x32mm discs and stock rear with 335x20mm disc,. Pedal box with balance bar. My first question would be which size masters would you suggest and would this setup work with an MK60 ? It would be the right time to plan and build it once. The car will be running an HGT sequential and Haltech R5 with all the extras.

 

Size of the brakes and master won’t matter much. Just make sure the master is ABS compatible. Apparently it's been known to bend the balance bars on dual master setups.

Friend of mine just put an HGT in his car. Shakedown testing is Friday. I was just playing around with the paddles, will be fun to see the air shift in action. The guy who developed those trans lives in Bangkok as well.

 

Thanks for your reply. Still in the process of fitting mine... Would love to see HGTs air shift system doing it's thing. I am aware they are based in Thailand as I dealt directly with Richard.
Would love to hear from other ppls experiences with dual masters.

 

Highly recommend the following resource for brake calculations. I have been using it in my PFC caliper/ tilton pedal box conversion. There's a lot of stuff that goes into it and if there is not a good foundational understanding it is very possible that the result may be substandard for the amount of effort required to fixture it. https://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/dual-bias-calc/
Also helps to have a good background on all of the considerations that must be made. The "Brake handbook" by Fred Puhn is a good place to start.

Additionally you could send me a pm and I can further explain how I work through it without taking the thread too far off topic.
Hope that helps!

 

Note, when you order the ABS, you do need to spec out your master cylinder, brake system, and tire sizes for the programming. I was hoping to have an upgrade to my current StopTech/RB Stock system in time, but since that's help up, I spec'd it for the current brakes, but with an upgrade Master Cylinder... I got the EVO upgrade from Japan, which is a 1.1" over the 929 1", in anticipation of bigger piston sizes for future upgrade, since I won't want to redo those connections.

The mount is made so that, if connected with flex lines, it should be able to be lifted out without opening the system, so you can pull the computer portion off to send it to be reprogrammed for upgrades, or to service the clutch master which is right below it.

I don't think I can attach the file here, but I can email it if anyone wants it.

 

Great info thanks. Where do you buy your systems from if I may ask?

 

You only need to spec that stuff if you’re going with a full motorsports flash, and most of the guys will re-flash if you change your setup.

With OEM software there’s no need to worry about that. It’s flexible enough to handle most setups as is, that’s one of the reasons the MK60 and MK60E5 are so popular. They work well out of the box for a huge variety of setups.

 

I got mine from Doug at RHD Motorsports, and per the other comment, I did get the motorsports flash.

 

Somewhat related, here's a good intro video on the Bosch Motorsport ABS system.

 

Coincidently I was just watching this.

 

This is the full Motorsports version for from Continental Teves, the MK100 https://conti-engineering.com/areas-...solutions/rsx/

I'm not sure how different this setup is vs a full Continental Motorsports custom flash of an MK60 or MK60E5 unit. It's believed to be extremely similar, with the main difference being end-user adjustable software vs needing to send in a unit to be flashed. With the speed of the progress that's been made in the last few years decoding the OEM software I wouldn't be surprised if we see a software add-on kit for the MK60 / E5 in the future that adds at least some of this functionality. This flashing ability is mostly kept as an industry trade secret, but more people are making progress on it with WinKFP and INPA and other BMW tools.

Great to see so many people getting on board with this

 

What about Bosch https://www.efihardware.com/products...-kit-clubsport

 

I paid about a third of that, FWIW.

 

That's the Bosch version. Both the MK100 and the Bosch M5 are far beyond what I'm willing to spend for ABS.

MK60 and E5 are popular because they do 95% of what those systems do, for 5-20% of the cost. If you have $10k for ABS, you probably have at least a few hundred thousand into the rest of the car to justify it. I'm sure you can put a stock MK60E5 in your car for $500 if you shop around and do the work yourself, make a harness with used connectors etc.