Long Term Results With RA Super Seals?
02-28-09, 06:47 PM
#1
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Long Term Results With RA Super Seals?
Has anyone run these seals for any length of time to see the impact on the housings? I am going to be building my motor soon and I am torn between the RA seals or OEM. I am leaning toward the RA.
03-01-09, 10:05 AM
#3
Jesus Padilla uses these regularly and swears by them. He's installed them in my 20B so we'll see. I too heard of shortened life due to rotor housing wear but couldn't find anything definitive. All I found was "I know of a guy who knows of this other guy who says..." kind of stuff.
03-01-09, 10:25 AM
#6
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I've been considering ALS in my upcoming build based on the positive feedback I've seen here on the forum, but when we install RA seals in customer motors at the shop it's with the understanding that we're not responsible for any problems relating to the apex seals.
03-01-09, 10:27 AM
#7
I've been considering ALS in my upcoming build based on the positive feedback I've seen here on the forum, but when we install RA seals in customer motors at the shop it's with the understanding that we're not responsible for any problems relating to the apex seals.
Have you had a bad experience with them?
L8R
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03-01-09, 10:56 AM
#8
I have seen significant rotor housing wear with the RA seals. I cannot say for sure that it was directly related to the seals, but I do not believe there is enough solid data and real world testing with them. We will use any seals the customer wishes, but if there is a problem related to the seals we will not cover it. I think that is pretty fair. I have a friend's customer that is running around with these seals for some time now. The motor has about 10k miles on it right now. The next time it comes out I am curious to see he finds.
03-01-09, 12:04 PM
#11
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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Nope, no personal bad experience.
It pretty much goes for any non-OEM engine internals.
Mazda has extensive R&D into their parts, other companies do not.
I'm considering the ALS for my own personal motor, but that's obviously a different situation than customer motors.
It pretty much goes for any non-OEM engine internals.
Mazda has extensive R&D into their parts, other companies do not.
I'm considering the ALS for my own personal motor, but that's obviously a different situation than customer motors.
03-01-09, 05:41 PM
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I am not looking to make huge HP numbers with my car at this time but that may change. I have read almost every thread on here about apex seals and it seems the stock ones will hold just fine but there is no room for any error. I think the RA's might be worth the shorter housing life for the extra room for error. I was just curious how much shorter the housing life is. Aparently no one has run them long enough to know as of yet...
03-01-09, 06:32 PM
#13
I have seen two engines torn down that were running the super seals, this was over 2-3 years ago so they may have changed. Both were the 3mm super seals, both had such low compression after 10-14k miles that they would no longer hot start and had to be roll started when warm. The housings looked horrible, however, the seals never broke and the single turbos were never destroyed. Both of these were on high hp cars, 450+rwhp.
Jason at rx7store really likes the seals and recommends them and says he hasnt seen any irregular housings wear, so it is obvious different people have different opinions. For the price, if you plan to only drive your car 2-4k miles per year or it is a full race car then they are some great seals. For a little more you can get the ALS seals which are growing in popularity by the second. Just got news another forum members street car just put down over 600rwhp on those seals in his used housing engine.
Jason at rx7store really likes the seals and recommends them and says he hasnt seen any irregular housings wear, so it is obvious different people have different opinions. For the price, if you plan to only drive your car 2-4k miles per year or it is a full race car then they are some great seals. For a little more you can get the ALS seals which are growing in popularity by the second. Just got news another forum members street car just put down over 600rwhp on those seals in his used housing engine.
03-01-09, 08:42 PM
#14
I got about 22k on my NA S5 that I rebuilt 3 yrs ago with regular 2mm RA seals and used stock springs. My seals are after that bad batch that came out. I premix 1oz per gallon and have a non functioning OMP. I don't have any hard hot starting problems at all. I don't abuse my engine either. As soon as I get the 20b up and running, I'm going to break this engine down for an inspection. One of my housings had scratches from when the engine originally blew. This will give me a good point of reference to check for additional wear.
03-01-09, 08:44 PM
#15
I got about 22k on my NA S5 that I rebuilt 3 yrs ago with regular 2mm RA seals and used stock springs. My seals are after that bad batch that came out. I premix 1oz per gallon and have a non functioning OMP. I don't have any hard hot starting problems at all. I don't abuse my engine either. As soon as I get the 20b up and running, I'm going to break this engine down for an inspection. One of my housings had scratches from when the engine originally blew. This will give me a good point of reference to check for additional wear.
03-02-09, 02:31 AM
#17
3mm causes extensive wear, it does not cause low compression.
many people tend to avoid the RA seals because in the past there have been known issues with the seals eating housings, that takes time to earn trust back and why i still avoid using them. OEM seals can withstand some hard detonations but when they break they destroy everything around them. Atkins seals tend to chip off the sharp corner at the boot end of the seal causing little to no damage to the engine internals. RA have been known to eat rotor housings causing low compression due to wear costing the owner more than just another rebuild. on the flipside the RA seals were known for their durability and had the highest tensile strength meaning they could take the most detonation before anything catastrophic happens.
hopefully they have redesigned them and fixed the issue with the classic seals they used to have otherwise i would hate to see more engine parts get pissed to the wind because of poor R+D and people just wanting to save a buck on seals.
so far from my own eyes the ceramics that Pettit uses have about 5 times longer life and next to no rotor housing wear vs any of the other seals. ceramics are expensive but will likely last for as long as you will own your car and buy your rotor housings that much life as well. ceramics can take detonation abuse about as well as the RA super seals but not even ceramics are indestructable, on the downside they cost about $1k for the set. the half of the motor that lost the ceramic seals lost everything including both irons.
many people tend to avoid the RA seals because in the past there have been known issues with the seals eating housings, that takes time to earn trust back and why i still avoid using them. OEM seals can withstand some hard detonations but when they break they destroy everything around them. Atkins seals tend to chip off the sharp corner at the boot end of the seal causing little to no damage to the engine internals. RA have been known to eat rotor housings causing low compression due to wear costing the owner more than just another rebuild. on the flipside the RA seals were known for their durability and had the highest tensile strength meaning they could take the most detonation before anything catastrophic happens.
hopefully they have redesigned them and fixed the issue with the classic seals they used to have otherwise i would hate to see more engine parts get pissed to the wind because of poor R+D and people just wanting to save a buck on seals.
so far from my own eyes the ceramics that Pettit uses have about 5 times longer life and next to no rotor housing wear vs any of the other seals. ceramics are expensive but will likely last for as long as you will own your car and buy your rotor housings that much life as well. ceramics can take detonation abuse about as well as the RA super seals but not even ceramics are indestructable, on the downside they cost about $1k for the set. the half of the motor that lost the ceramic seals lost everything including both irons.
03-02-09, 07:02 AM
#18
3mm apex seals do cause more wear, which is one of the causes of low compresssion. Additionally they only have one spring which can lead to uneven wear. The added friction from the additional 1mm thickness generates a lot more heat and this can lead to sagging if not properly lubricated.
You just got done says that wear does not cause low compression
I can tell you from first hand experience that RA seals do not eat housings. We have been using them for over 5 years in every rebuild we do. I have taken my own engine apart in 5K miles intervals ( for the last 20K) and there has been no wear. I started with the original RA seals and swapped to the super seals when they came out a few years ago. This testing has been done on my single turbo 93 FD pushing 25+psi. I originally built it with new housings, when I pulled it this last time for the 20B and dissassembled, the housings still looked new. My 20B also has super seals and brand new housings.
We have also opened up a 50K mile engine that we built for a customer several years ago, that decided he want porting this time, housings were completely usable, no abnormal wear at all.
I can tell you from first hand experience that RA seals do not eat housings. We have been using them for over 5 years in every rebuild we do. I have taken my own engine apart in 5K miles intervals ( for the last 20K) and there has been no wear. I started with the original RA seals and swapped to the super seals when they came out a few years ago. This testing has been done on my single turbo 93 FD pushing 25+psi. I originally built it with new housings, when I pulled it this last time for the 20B and dissassembled, the housings still looked new. My 20B also has super seals and brand new housings.
We have also opened up a 50K mile engine that we built for a customer several years ago, that decided he want porting this time, housings were completely usable, no abnormal wear at all.
03-02-09, 09:09 AM
#22
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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I wouldnt get too excited Andy, they're still new to the scene and talk is cheap. I'd love to see some longevity data, but that takes time.
Ask yourself how long mazda seals have been around, and how much R&D went into them, then compare that to any aftermarket seal.
Ask yourself how long mazda seals have been around, and how much R&D went into them, then compare that to any aftermarket seal.
03-02-09, 10:31 AM
#23
The ALS seals are great to this point, but I tell every customer I build an engine for with them that long term results are yet to be known. We will have to see after someone tears their engine down after 30-40k miles which could be a year or two down the road.
03-02-09, 10:58 AM
#24
Having worked in the Automotive Industry in Detroit for many years, the "millions" spent on R&D is more about cost cutting then quality. Not saying that OEM seals are bad, just that auto makers do make compromises in designs to save money. This is why they also spend millions of dollars on safety recalls.....
Example: Ford Explorer exploding tires
03-02-09, 10:58 AM
#25
We use RA seals in all of the engines we do, but the majority are single turbo cars and not daily driven. If you are stock and daily drive your car then just use stock seals.
RA seal will not break under any circumstance. We have tried. You end up cracking the corner seals from detonation.
RA seal will not break under any circumstance. We have tried. You end up cracking the corner seals from detonation.