I guess I won't know without an A/B comparison. I was coached by Dave Barninger that the numbers are better with FMIC 2-row (with twins). I believed him, and went that route. Motor definitely runs warm during hot days @ the track, but SMICs don't run that much cooler, once we're talking motor temps in the high 240 F range. FWIW it takes me about 25 minutes of hard running to hit 115 C, which is about the length of an open track run group session.

How can you appreciate someone's opinion with no experience behind his opinion? Doesn't make sense?

 

You mean May of 1997? That was the infamous Freedenberg Mid Ohio event? Yeah, that was my first driving school. Of course that was the case LOL. Sounds like John Duff? At least the color of the car in your avatar reminds me of John Duff's car? Or is this Jim O'Brien? At that time your car was silver?

 

May, you are right. My fault.

You had a beautiful car there. Chrome stock wheels, if I recall correctly.

That was my 5th event. At this point you probably have more seat time than me, but I would hope you wouldn't completely dismiss my knowledge.

And no, I am not John Duff.

 

Jim O'Brien? Checked your profile and your website...JVOB was the initials on the Cobra project.

If so, I stand in deference to you, sir

Yeah, my car was bone stock at that event. Car only had 14,000 miles on it.

Popped my open track cherry @ that event. Was totally hooked afterwards.

Hope I wasn't too rude to you

My once beautiful paint job now has a thoroughly used patina.

Sideview mirrors and rear spoiler are all faded out LOL.

Track time is going 70 days. Am now instructing for BMW CCA, PCA, SVTOA, etc. etc...

 

Not Jim either. We both equally stand in deference to him.

Manny, I respect you as a driver and what you contribute to this forum. What I don't understand is your participation in the attacks on a guy that so loves the FD that he studies daily and searches endlessly to find the right car.

You know as well as I do, the IC debate has raged since you and I first got our cars. You also know that the FMIC is not the right choice for most people.

Frankly, I don't understand how it works for you, but I am glad it does.

I have a serious track friend in Boston that uses an FMIC but he also did a complete refabrication of the entire nose and he grabs his radiator air through a duct behind and beneath the IC. That works for him.

It is a tired discussion and I am done contributing to the awful signal to noise ratio on this forum.

Everyone, buy what you want and reap the benefits or learn the lessons.

 

Thanks for the comment. I don't recall our meeting @ the May 1997 event, but we must have met?

The attack wasn't really personal. I was trying to rationalize how someone can posit an opinion without having experienced the car thoroughly as we have?

Dave Barninger built my second motor (yep the original died a natural death after 102,543 miles). KDR built it from a Malloy reman. Running oil and cooling mods, silicone o-ring etc.

I've taken a few hints from Flying Fritz Flynn, and Chris Regan, on how to duct my Koyo rad core and GReddy FMIC core with foam. That's helped immensely with handling the heat. I think a vented hood, and a GTC nose would help even more, but that will be another topic.

Yes the debate rages on.

As an FMIC owner, with serious open track experience, I feel the need to dis-spell the negative perceptions of FMIC and FDs.

 

Do we really want to talk about this again? I have some experience as well. Stock mounts are for real men :P

Kevin T. Wyum

 

not true. can be fashion, or function as with most high dollar wrc ralley cars that use fmic ( mabe one v-mount).

To original post, imho, optimum IC for autox would be stock mount A/L. specific heat of water is 4x aluminum, plus very high film coef. pre cool water to ambient while staging, then zoom.

Both a/a smic and fmic could also be precooled with fans, and cooled with fans during run. fmic will have bit more lag.

 

Yep, once the equine has assumed room temperature, one should stop swinging at it.*


* Beating a dead horse

 

WVRx7, did you run in MADS Summit Point 99? Did we meet then?

V-mount. That's what I'd do if I were re-modding the FD LOL

 

I was there.

 

Manny, you know that I respect you but your water temps are pretty high. My hottest track day was at Buttonwillow last August. Ambient temps were about 98F, God only knows what the track temps were. My water temps on the PFC were between 105 and 108C. This was running 13 psi with the mods in my sig.

My last two track days have been in 50sF weather and I never hit above 96C on the PFC.

I have also noticed that my car tends to run hotter than most other FDs in street driving. I think you would experience significantly lower temps with a stock mount, not to mention slightly less lag.

Just throwing my 2 cents in.

 

Well, I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my opinion on the FMIC SMIC debate since I don't yet own an FD, but as I said before, my statement was not just something I pulled out of my ***, it was one based on my knowledge gained from research here and speaking with people active in the RX7 community that have first hand experience. Add to that, the with FD's thirst for cooling, on an AutoX course or road course, it stands to reason that you'd want maximum airflow to the radiator, and without a properly ducted setup as WVRX7 mentioned, the FMIC will only block that airflow, resulting in higher water temps.

Yes, I've never witnessed this first hand, but I trust the people that have taught me to their word, and maybe I shouldn't go around regurgitating it without experience, but all I was doing was trying to contribute to the forum.

The good news is, I'm within 2 weeks from finally getting my FD I believe, then I can start building first hand experience and maybe I won't become the subject of more of these heated debates then.


Joe

 

...we're just trying to keep it real, i hate seeing our 7's being put down for whatever reason, well... except looking ricey.

good luck with your venture for your own 7!


see ya,

car 53

 

i'm not arguing wether or not the smic vs the fmic is better. i definitely agree that the closer the intercooler is to your intake manifolds and turbos the more efficient and responsive your car can run. heck i've had an 87 tii since '91 and i'm stil running the stock intercooler. auto-x it quite a bit as well as drag - best et on drag w/ the stock turbo and stock intercooler was a 12.7. i've had my '93 for 8 years now and i am satisfied with my Apexi fmic - which is probably the only fm that is pretty well hidden - almost looking like the radiator, after all this is my daily driven low 12 second car, that's how i justify the parts in my car WORKING.

ok. the 'equine' is 12 feet under.


see ya,

car 53

 

are the v-mount guys laughing? :p

 

Depends on the track. I've run cooler water temps at Mid Ohio and IRP Road Course. Mid Ohio and IRP are more technical and fast only on the long straights. Both are 2.5 miles per lap. Putnam Park is short (1.77 miles per lap), with fast turns everywhere. The straighs are much shorter, so air velocity into the nose is much slower and shorter than with longer straights with higher speeds. Putnam Park is brutal on my car, and that's where my water temps are the highest.

Normal summer driving, I've had no issues with the setup. The A/C even works for crying out loud.

Granted, if I lived in the southwest or west coast, where ambient temps are routinely high, v-mount would be my first choice hands down. In fact if I were modding the Rx7 today, I'd go V-mount http://www.rotaryextreme.com/vmount.html

I wouldn't mess around. I'd get the big one http://www.rx7store.net/product.asp?0=215&1=386&3=830

For the v-mount to be truly effective, a vented hood would be mandatory with this setup. http://www.rx7store.net/product.asp?0=203&1=357&3=782

I've never liked the stock mount setup. You're trying to cool a large intercooler core through that little snorkel duct opening at the nose? It must work, since so many open track FD owners swear by this setup. I think that's b/c there are very few v-mount setup owners that have truly tested their setups @ open track events yet.

V-mount's the most expensive to do properly, but IMHO, v-mount's the best of both SMIC and FMIC in one package.

 

I totally agree. At my last Buttonwillow day, Cossie was there with his single turbo v-mount beast. His water and air temps were typically 10C colder than mine.

 

Agreed. That's why I jumped on the old school Greddy 3 row when I had the chance. Doesn't sit as far forward, and doesn't completely fill the mouth. LOTS of air gets by.

I'll post pics later.

 

never liked it? took years to talk you out of tracking car with the stock 'puny' IC.

scc tested intake temps with a thermocouple, 12-13 psi during laps at a calif track. with M2 med, on 90F day. Charge temps peaked at 158F. can only get so much air through that snorkel.

WVRx7: think I met your friend with 944T at SP a few years back, both car and driver were fast.

 

M2 medium yielded 70 C (158 F) air intake temps? That's not really cooling the charge air much?! My AITs @ open track events peak @ 45 C (113 F) with ambient temps in the 80s. Tracked in 90s F ambient temps, one time. I suffered from heat exhaustion before the car did. That's not any fun.

Yeah, I was still a noob open track driver, and didn't really want to spend any money on mods yet--until the motor finally went--45 track days later...at which point, I went hog-wild LOL

Some day I'll convert my FD to a dedicated open track car, and at that point, probably will switch to Chuck Huang's monster V-mount setup. All I'll need is the IC core, piping, and vented hood. I already have the big boy Koyo rad core (I think Chuck's kit uses a rad core similar in size to the big Koyo??) I shouldn't have any trouble selling the GReddy FMIC core and piping to a rich high school kid who wants his/her FD to just look cool LOL.

 

Their test was conducted with a thermocouple mounted in the IC, not using the stock FD thermosensor in the UIM. Although, their results sound very high. Running 13 psi in 100F track day, I had low 60sC air temps with the smaller PFS SMIC.

 

The SMIC vs FMIC debate will never end but for me it is real simple. A SMIC will always allow more and cooler air to pass over the radiator (important on this car) and will always have a shorter path to the throttle body. Therefore I would never bother with a FMIC unless I had already proven the SMIC was incapable of handling my needs. The ONLY advantage a FMIC has is that it's core is bigger. If a smaller SMIC can do the job why go bigger and then have to deal with the other tradeoffs? You're just inventing problems to solve IMO. The point about the duct on a SMIC isn't really valid; all that counts is what the intake temps are.

This in no way means an FMIC will not work or is stupid. But it is not the most elegant solution IMO and for me the best solution is always the one that solves the problem while being simplest and bringing the fewest side effects. Less is more.

If I needed to go hog wild with an intercooler and radiator setup I would never look farther than v-mount...

 

I looked into doing this, but at the time I was doing mods (late 2002), Chuck was at the prototype stages. It's only been in recent months that Chuck has perfected the production versions of his V-mount setups. If you have the money, V-mount is the way to go.

 

wow sleeper...u have to admitl....that was agood *** comeback.

kind of figured it was one of your first events though.