Front Mount vs Top Mount IC
05-13-04, 12:37 PM
#51
As I later found out it's quite likely the M2 had a lot of problems because of their change in end tank shapes on the passenger side. It created a huge gap in the duct and just let air blow into the engine bay without going through the IC. Needless to say that would kind of hurt thermal exchange : ). I would ignore the SCC numbers unless we know it was the correct passenger side endtank. Considering what they were selling to everyone else was the wrong tapered endtank I'd assume they used the same in that test.
I'm sure there are people out there that track with the correct oldest or newest medium IC's that can tell us what they run for IAT's.
Kevin T. Wyum
I'm sure there are people out there that track with the correct oldest or newest medium IC's that can tell us what they run for IAT's.
Kevin T. Wyum
05-13-04, 12:41 PM
#52
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Originally posted by rynberg
Their test was conducted with a thermocouple mounted in the IC, not using the stock FD thermosensor in the UIM. Although, their results sound very high. Running 13 psi in 100F track day, I had low 60sC air temps with the smaller PFS SMIC.
Their test was conducted with a thermocouple mounted in the IC, not using the stock FD thermosensor in the UIM. Although, their results sound very high. Running 13 psi in 100F track day, I had low 60sC air temps with the smaller PFS SMIC.
i cant believe how the oldies but goodies came out on this thread...u guys ar still lurking huh.
05-13-04, 12:48 PM
#53
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Originally posted by Section8
I'd go SMIC for Autox. Probably for a track session as well. IMO, Front mounts are only good for drag racing (which is a great mis-use of the FD) and people that want to just show off.
I'd go SMIC for Autox. Probably for a track session as well. IMO, Front mounts are only good for drag racing (which is a great mis-use of the FD) and people that want to just show off.
05-13-04, 01:28 PM
#54
Lives on the Forum
It was my first drivers ed event. I was the typical male driver who knew everything there was to know about how to drive fast (I read books on driving techniques). Once I got on a real track, I checked my ego at the door. It didn't come easily, but it sure was/is fun! I was in C group, and by the end of the weekend, I got going pretty good, and even passed a few cars (most notably a black '76 Porsche 930 Turbo hee hee 
)
WVRx7, after 5 events, you should have been classed in B or A group? Was that your first Mid Ohio event at the time? No way you should have been in C group with me (when I was a "noob" driver)??
) WVRx7, after 5 events, you should have been classed in B or A group? Was that your first Mid Ohio event at the time? No way you should have been in C group with me (when I was a "noob" driver)??
Originally posted by matty
wow sleeper...u have to admitl....that was agood *** comeback.
kind of figured it was one of your first events though.
wow sleeper...u have to admitl....that was agood *** comeback.
kind of figured it was one of your first events though.
05-13-04, 06:42 PM
#55
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Originally posted by SleepR1
It was my first drivers ed event. I was the typical male driver who knew everything there was to know about how to drive fast (I read books on driving techniques). Once I got on a real track, I checked my ego at the door. It didn't come easily, but it sure was/is fun! I was in C group, and by the end of the weekend, I got going pretty good, and even passed a few cars (most notably a black '76 Porsche 930 Turbo hee hee )
WVRx7, after 5 events, you should have been classed in B or A group? Was that your first Mid Ohio event at the time? No way you should have been in C group with me (when I was a "noob" driver)??
It was my first drivers ed event. I was the typical male driver who knew everything there was to know about how to drive fast (I read books on driving techniques). Once I got on a real track, I checked my ego at the door. It didn't come easily, but it sure was/is fun! I was in C group, and by the end of the weekend, I got going pretty good, and even passed a few cars (most notably a black '76 Porsche 930 Turbo hee hee
) WVRx7, after 5 events, you should have been classed in B or A group? Was that your first Mid Ohio event at the time? No way you should have been in C group with me (when I was a "noob" driver)??
I was pretty much a noob then too, but had a few events under my belt.
I remember Peter Farrell spinning someone's brand new 911 twin turbo right in front of me at the entry to Madness. I came awfully close to spearing him in the passenger door. On my next lap he was still straddling the curb trying to get the thing started (I remember huge black soot areas around the exhaust tips where all the unburned fuel had burned while he was trying to get it started)
Do you also remember the father/son combo in the Viper GTS? That was Jason Piscelli (Son). He is now driving the Lexus with that Road & Track editor in Grand Am or whatever series that is.
Lots of famous people at that event. A seminal point in Rx7 history.
05-13-04, 09:48 PM
#56
Lives on the Forum
Yeah, I remember Jason and his dad (Viper GTS). Yeah many famous people. Peter Cunningham ran the classroom sessions. I recall PD saying something about how he'd been a dirt track racer (rally driver), or something. Funny how he started. Also remember Peter Farrell chasing down PD Cunningham (Rx7 vs NSX T2 class). Both were turning 1'38s", about 25 seconds faster than I was lapping LOL. Wish I could remember all the people I met that weekend. It was a blast. I'd like to do Mazda Drivers Group @ VIR in Sept (full course), so perhaps I'll meet you there? I don't trust my 120,000-mile FD to make it there and back, so I may end up renting one of Fritz Flynn's FDs? I'd better start saving my pennies NOW LOL!
Originally posted by WVRx7
I ran in both groups. Don't exactly remember why, but for something was messed up on the first day and I alternated. On the 2nd day, I think I ran solely in the B group.
I was pretty much a noob then too, but had a few events under my belt.
I remember Peter Farrell spinning someone's brand new 911 twin turbo right in front of me at the entry to Madness. I came awfully close to spearing him in the passenger door. On my next lap he was still straddling the curb trying to get the thing started (I remember huge black soot areas around the exhaust tips where all the unburned fuel had burned while he was trying to get it started)
Do you also remember the father/son combo in the Viper GTS? That was Jason Piscelli (Son). He is now driving the Lexus with that Road & Track editor in Grand Am or whatever series that is.
Lots of famous people at that event. A seminal point in Rx7 history.
I ran in both groups. Don't exactly remember why, but for something was messed up on the first day and I alternated. On the 2nd day, I think I ran solely in the B group.
I was pretty much a noob then too, but had a few events under my belt.
I remember Peter Farrell spinning someone's brand new 911 twin turbo right in front of me at the entry to Madness. I came awfully close to spearing him in the passenger door. On my next lap he was still straddling the curb trying to get the thing started (I remember huge black soot areas around the exhaust tips where all the unburned fuel had burned while he was trying to get it started)
Do you also remember the father/son combo in the Viper GTS? That was Jason Piscelli (Son). He is now driving the Lexus with that Road & Track editor in Grand Am or whatever series that is.
Lots of famous people at that event. A seminal point in Rx7 history.
Last edited by SleepR1; 05-13-04 at 09:54 PM.
05-13-04, 11:01 PM
#57
Hey, where did my $$$ go?
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A core only flows so much till it starts pushing air in front of it. If you have a fmic that flows say 4000cfm thru the core then you have 4000cfm worth of air to transfer heat into. If your running a V mount and you have 2 cores that both flow 4000cfm now you have 8000cfm to transfer heat into. As for a smic it TOTALLY depends on duct design, the opening of the duct really doesnt need to be as large as the core due to the fins in the core, only a certain percentage of the core flows air, this is dependant mainly on how many fins per inch the core has. Personally I would go either Vmount of SMIC. If you go smic you could run a Spal fan with an alum fan shroud then insulate all of it from the duct back. That way when your parked you dont have heat soak issues. With the Vmount you really need ducting at least on the sides to keep the air forced thru the core.
On a side note most of you know I made my own smic a few years back and it worked excellent. Now I'm designing something to flow 1200cfm and I finally selected a custom V mount I'm working on. I was going to lrun air liquid however after many nights of calculating the heat transfer that needed to take place and after many phone calls to many different radiator suppliers I came to the conclusion a air liquid would eventually build up to much heat with a set up capable of the hp I'm after. The setup would have be great on the street or a dragstip but on a road course where your in and out of boost for long periods of time it would have built up heat after a couple minutes of high boosting. For a heat exchanger to function right it needs to have about 4x the amount of surface area as the IC, the IC I needed was so large I could have never fit the heat exchanger anywhere.
Anyway, just thought I'd share some good and bad info on each design....as I see it.
just my .02
STEPHEN
On a side note most of you know I made my own smic a few years back and it worked excellent. Now I'm designing something to flow 1200cfm and I finally selected a custom V mount I'm working on. I was going to lrun air liquid however after many nights of calculating the heat transfer that needed to take place and after many phone calls to many different radiator suppliers I came to the conclusion a air liquid would eventually build up to much heat with a set up capable of the hp I'm after. The setup would have be great on the street or a dragstip but on a road course where your in and out of boost for long periods of time it would have built up heat after a couple minutes of high boosting. For a heat exchanger to function right it needs to have about 4x the amount of surface area as the IC, the IC I needed was so large I could have never fit the heat exchanger anywhere.
Anyway, just thought I'd share some good and bad info on each design....as I see it.
just my .02
STEPHEN
Last edited by SPOautos; 05-13-04 at 11:10 PM.
05-14-04, 09:37 PM
#58
wow - look at the hornet's nest I stirred up just because I searched for top mount instead of stock mount intercooler. Could someone explain the V-mount to me? I can't imagine getting unobstructed airflow to both IC and radiator...
and all you track day boys - my best time at Mid Ohio is a 1.43.5 - and since I'm a newbie to this board - you know it wasn't in an FD - guess the car (hint think drum brakes and 57HP, baby!)
Jim
and all you track day boys - my best time at Mid Ohio is a 1.43.5 - and since I'm a newbie to this board - you know it wasn't in an FD - guess the car (hint think drum brakes and 57HP, baby!)
Jim
05-14-04, 09:49 PM
#59
never mind - I found the rotary extreme link to the v-mount. I could never spend that much - if I did, it would guaranteed that would bury the nose of the car into the tires at Turn 1 at Mid Ohio...
nice - but it sure looks like you'd have to be careful with your ducting - and you'd want to somehow study the underhood airflow to make sure the IC air didn't just stall after it went thru - I know people have said vented hood - but I'd sure want to see some video of the yarn tuffs blowing out of the hood duct - not INto it.
Jim
nice - but it sure looks like you'd have to be careful with your ducting - and you'd want to somehow study the underhood airflow to make sure the IC air didn't just stall after it went thru - I know people have said vented hood - but I'd sure want to see some video of the yarn tuffs blowing out of the hood duct - not INto it.
Jim
05-14-04, 10:19 PM
#61
Lives on the Forum
1'43" is hauling the mail @ Mid Ohio! Formula Ford racer were you? No doubt you can turn that time in an FD with Hoosiers.
Chuck and Kevin have some bad history. Both are respected members of the forum, but they tend to get a bit ruffled.
I like the V-mount setup, and as SPOAutos mentioned, ducting to a vented hood would ensure efficacy. I've also seen fans mounted on the back side of the v-mount's intercooler core. This ensures air flow through the VMIC core. I guess you could install fans on the back of the VM rad core as well?
I will be instructing @ Mid Ohio 31 May/1 June with TracQuest/Rennlist. I turn low 1'50" on street tires/pads/11-12 psi, and 1'45" on Hoosiers/Porterfield R4Es/10-11 psi. Since I'm not out to set the track record in an FD, I usually just run street tires/pads/11-12 psi boost, and stay in the low 1'50s" (I usually have a passenger anyway--Todd Serota expects his instructors to always take students out when we're lapping--for educational purposes LOL )
Good luck with your project!
Chuck and Kevin have some bad history. Both are respected members of the forum, but they tend to get a bit ruffled.
I like the V-mount setup, and as SPOAutos mentioned, ducting to a vented hood would ensure efficacy. I've also seen fans mounted on the back side of the v-mount's intercooler core. This ensures air flow through the VMIC core. I guess you could install fans on the back of the VM rad core as well?
I will be instructing @ Mid Ohio 31 May/1 June with TracQuest/Rennlist. I turn low 1'50" on street tires/pads/11-12 psi, and 1'45" on Hoosiers/Porterfield R4Es/10-11 psi. Since I'm not out to set the track record in an FD, I usually just run street tires/pads/11-12 psi boost, and stay in the low 1'50s" (I usually have a passenger anyway--Todd Serota expects his instructors to always take students out when we're lapping--for educational purposes LOL
)Good luck with your project!
Originally posted by tzbfwt
wow - look at the hornet's nest I stirred up just because I searched for top mount instead of stock mount intercooler. Could someone explain the V-mount to me? I can't imagine getting unobstructed airflow to both IC and radiator...
and all you track day boys - my best time at Mid Ohio is a 1.43.5 - and since I'm a newbie to this board - you know it wasn't in an FD - guess the car (hint think drum brakes and 57HP, baby!)
Jim
wow - look at the hornet's nest I stirred up just because I searched for top mount instead of stock mount intercooler. Could someone explain the V-mount to me? I can't imagine getting unobstructed airflow to both IC and radiator...
and all you track day boys - my best time at Mid Ohio is a 1.43.5 - and since I'm a newbie to this board - you know it wasn't in an FD - guess the car (hint think drum brakes and 57HP, baby!)
Jim
Last edited by SleepR1; 05-14-04 at 10:22 PM.
05-15-04, 02:54 PM
#63
Kevin - this might be a dangerous question based on the current hostities over on the V-mount thread - but do you make a V mount setup - since my stock rad and intercooler will have to be replaced anyway - a v mount might not be that much MORE - than a bigger AST? SMIC and new Koyo? radiator
and no, not a Formula Ford - you'd be toast in a good FF field at 1.43.5 - think cheaper - think DRUM BRAKES and SKINNY TIRES (but we flat foot turn one at mid-o !) well - most of the time - when I don't spin.....
and no, not a Formula Ford - you'd be toast in a good FF field at 1.43.5 - think cheaper - think DRUM BRAKES and SKINNY TIRES (but we flat foot turn one at mid-o !) well - most of the time - when I don't spin.....
05-15-04, 04:19 PM
#64
Lives on the Forum
You got me. I'm clueless. A soapbox derby car with a lawnmower motor...???
Originally posted by tzbfwt
and no, not a Formula Ford - you'd be toast in a good FF field at 1.43.5 - think cheaper - think DRUM BRAKES and SKINNY TIRES (but we flat foot turn one at mid-o !) well - most of the time - when I don't spin.....
and no, not a Formula Ford - you'd be toast in a good FF field at 1.43.5 - think cheaper - think DRUM BRAKES and SKINNY TIRES (but we flat foot turn one at mid-o !) well - most of the time - when I don't spin.....
05-15-04, 05:04 PM
#65
Rotary Enthusiast
Originally posted by matty
Last august on limerock on an 85 degree day i was seeing very high 60C low 70s intake temps as measured by the powerfc. I run an m2 med ic. i was runnign 12psi....
Last august on limerock on an 85 degree day i was seeing very high 60C low 70s intake temps as measured by the powerfc. I run an m2 med ic. i was runnign 12psi....
KTW: Mabe matty also had same M2 design, and both ducts had poor fit?
scc test showed near ambient iintake temps during 3rd gear runs to redline. road course driving is severe, constant load.
05-15-04, 07:54 PM
#67
Lives on the Forum
Originally posted by tzbfwt
think cheaper - think DRUM BRAKES and SKINNY TIRES (but we flat foot turn one at mid-o !) well - most of the time - when I don't spin.....
think cheaper - think DRUM BRAKES and SKINNY TIRES (but we flat foot turn one at mid-o !) well - most of the time - when I don't spin.....
*edit* oops, I see you told us that later
05-15-04, 08:20 PM
#68
I think I know who WVRx7 is. Bill Gammon? Hi Bill. I was at MADS Apr 99, too. That was a cool event. I think that was my first track event ever.
In addition to those already mentioned, I also met Cam Worth, Wael El-Dasher, Brad Barber, Demetrios Karragianis, and Rich Farrell there.
-Max
In addition to those already mentioned, I also met Cam Worth, Wael El-Dasher, Brad Barber, Demetrios Karragianis, and Rich Farrell there.
-Max
05-15-04, 09:58 PM
#69
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Originally posted by maxcooper
I think I know who WVRx7 is. Bill Gammon? Hi Bill. I was at MADS Apr 99, too. That was a cool event. I think that was my first track event ever.
In addition to those already mentioned, I also met Cam Worth, Wael El-Dasher, Brad Barber, Demetrios Karragianis, and Rich Farrell there.
-Max
I think I know who WVRx7 is. Bill Gammon? Hi Bill. I was at MADS Apr 99, too. That was a cool event. I think that was my first track event ever.
In addition to those already mentioned, I also met Cam Worth, Wael El-Dasher, Brad Barber, Demetrios Karragianis, and Rich Farrell there.
-Max
I'm honored
05-15-04, 10:20 PM
#70
Lives on the Forum
'99 MADS Summit Point
Wael spun out in front of me during the second day when it rained. Nearly t-boned him going into 1 LOL.
I don't recall meeting Bill, Rich, or even Max, but I must have driven Summit Point with you guys at some point? Just didn't know it at the time, LOL.
I recall a guy with flat tire. He had a montego blue FD. Was looking for a spare tire. I couldn't help him out.
TurboJeff might have been there with his be-stickered FD. He had a track-trailer with him? At the time I think he and I were the only two red FDs with dealer-added chromed factory wheels?
Remember the silver FD that flipped on its roof coming out of Turn 10? What a sight?
I don't recall meeting Bill, Rich, or even Max, but I must have driven Summit Point with you guys at some point? Just didn't know it at the time, LOL.
I recall a guy with flat tire. He had a montego blue FD. Was looking for a spare tire. I couldn't help him out.
TurboJeff might have been there with his be-stickered FD. He had a track-trailer with him? At the time I think he and I were the only two red FDs with dealer-added chromed factory wheels?
Remember the silver FD that flipped on its roof coming out of Turn 10? What a sight?
Originally posted by maxcooper
I think I know who WVRx7 is. Bill Gammon? Hi Bill. I was at MADS Apr 99, too. That was a cool event. I think that was my first track event ever.
In addition to those already mentioned, I also met Cam Worth, Wael El-Dasher, Brad Barber, Demetrios Karragianis, and Rich Farrell there.
-Max
I think I know who WVRx7 is. Bill Gammon? Hi Bill. I was at MADS Apr 99, too. That was a cool event. I think that was my first track event ever.
In addition to those already mentioned, I also met Cam Worth, Wael El-Dasher, Brad Barber, Demetrios Karragianis, and Rich Farrell there.
-Max
05-16-04, 01:59 AM
#71
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
70C intake temp is too high. The highest intake temp you want to see is no more than 50C.
85F is about 30C. 40C over the ambient shows how inefficient the IC design is. With a Vmount, you will only see 5-15C over ambient at all time. The problem with SMIC is that limited opening of the 2.5"x12" IC duct. Not much air can flow into it.
Go with a vmount, you won't regret.
Chuck Huang
85F is about 30C. 40C over the ambient shows how inefficient the IC design is. With a Vmount, you will only see 5-15C over ambient at all time. The problem with SMIC is that limited opening of the 2.5"x12" IC duct. Not much air can flow into it.
Go with a vmount, you won't regret.
Chuck Huang
05-16-04, 02:11 AM
#72
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
Please excuse Kevin. He has a lot of stress in the past few days aruging with me. Now he is hallucinating. He thinks everyone wants to copy his everything and he is about to become a priest it seems. He is very good at preaching moral values even though he used M2 to make money and then dumped them after they are no more use to him.
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by Kevin T. Wyum
Does Todd have Logan lapping yet? : )
Kevin T. Wyum
P.S. He's right. Chuck is no longer my best friend. He was trying to copy my pick up lines for chicks in the bar!!
Does Todd have Logan lapping yet? : )
Kevin T. Wyum
P.S. He's right. Chuck is no longer my best friend. He was trying to copy my pick up lines for chicks in the bar!!
05-16-04, 02:40 AM
#73
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
Manny:
How about you send me your Greddy 2 row and Koyo rad and I will convert them to a vmount for you?? Email me.
Chuck Huang
How about you send me your Greddy 2 row and Koyo rad and I will convert them to a vmount for you??
Email me. Chuck Huang
Originally posted by SleepR1
M2 medium yielded 70 C (158 F) air intake temps? That's not really cooling the charge air much?! My AITs @ open track events peak @ 45 C (113 F) with ambient temps in the 80s. Tracked in 90s F ambient temps, one time. I suffered from heat exhaustion before the car did. That's not any fun.
Yeah, I was still a noob open track driver, and didn't really want to spend any money on mods yet--until the motor finally went--45 track days later...at which point, I went hog-wild LOL
Some day I'll convert my FD to a dedicated open track car, and at that point, probably will switch to Chuck Huang's monster V-mount setup. All I'll need is the IC core, piping, and vented hood. I already have the big boy Koyo rad core (I think Chuck's kit uses a rad core similar in size to the big Koyo??) I shouldn't have any trouble selling the GReddy FMIC core and piping to a rich high school kid who wants his/her FD to just look cool LOL.
M2 medium yielded 70 C (158 F) air intake temps? That's not really cooling the charge air much?! My AITs @ open track events peak @ 45 C (113 F) with ambient temps in the 80s. Tracked in 90s F ambient temps, one time. I suffered from heat exhaustion before the car did. That's not any fun.
Yeah, I was still a noob open track driver, and didn't really want to spend any money on mods yet--until the motor finally went--45 track days later...at which point, I went hog-wild LOL
Some day I'll convert my FD to a dedicated open track car, and at that point, probably will switch to Chuck Huang's monster V-mount setup. All I'll need is the IC core, piping, and vented hood. I already have the big boy Koyo rad core (I think Chuck's kit uses a rad core similar in size to the big Koyo??)
I shouldn't have any trouble selling the GReddy FMIC core and piping to a rich high school kid who wants his/her FD to just look cool LOL.
05-16-04, 09:13 AM
#74
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Originally posted by rotaryextreme
70C intake temp is too high. The highest intake temp you want to see is no more than 50C.
85F is about 30C. 40C over the ambient shows how inefficient the IC design is. With a Vmount, you will only see 5-15C over ambient at all time. The problem with SMIC is that limited opening of the 2.5"x12" IC duct. Not much air can flow into it.
Go with a vmount, you won't regret.
Chuck Huang
70C intake temp is too high. The highest intake temp you want to see is no more than 50C.
85F is about 30C. 40C over the ambient shows how inefficient the IC design is. With a Vmount, you will only see 5-15C over ambient at all time. The problem with SMIC is that limited opening of the 2.5"x12" IC duct. Not much air can flow into it.
Go with a vmount, you won't regret.
Chuck Huang
/dizzy
05-16-04, 10:32 AM
#75
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Chuck,
I was just looking at your website, and was wondering why there is a total lack of ducting with your V-mount setups? I am certainly not questioning the capability of the setup, it just seems that it would be that much more efficient if there was ducting involved.
I was just looking at your website, and was wondering why there is a total lack of ducting with your V-mount setups? I am certainly not questioning the capability of the setup, it just seems that it would be that much more efficient if there was ducting involved.