Front Mount vs Top Mount IC
05-18-04, 01:45 PM
#101
I can get an extra one for you for next to nothing, I just didn't want to have 20 people spamming for it and having to spend the time to ship them all out. Besides I need the time to type up the whole story with M2 that I got the go ahead to talk about. : )
Kevin T. Wyum
Kevin T. Wyum
05-18-04, 08:21 PM
#102
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Originally posted by SleepR1
For most street-driven FDs with FMIC (given the geography is NOT in a desert climate), this is probably the case.
It's only when you're open tracking (hard) do the water temps climb steadily with FMIC.
This is b/c you're in the boost often @ an open tracking event. With 45 C peak air intake temps, the motor is making good power @ 10 to 12 psi boost. Good power generates heat. The cooling system has to lose that heat, and stay ahead of the heat generation caused by the good power levels. With warm ambient temps, the cooling system will quickly lag, and water temps rise over the course of the run session (in my experience up to 120 C, 248 F with 80-ish F ambient temps).
Conversely, SMICs with 70 to 80 C air intake temps, the motor is NOT making as good power with 10 to 12 psi boost compared with FMIC. The heat generation is not as high, and the cooling system doesn't lag as much with SMIC compared with FMIC. Eventually water temps will climb to unacceptably high levels (120 C or 248 F), it just takes longer with SMIC.
But...my FMIC equipped FD vs an ASP large equipped FD set at the same boost level, will run away from the ASP SMIC equipped FD out on track within the alotted 20-25 minute run group session.
My friend Jim (with an ASP large SMIC), who is a fellow PCA instructor tried to stay with me during our run group session. After a few laps, I was gone.
Jim thought he had a chance in staying within striking distance, since I was carrying a passenger, and he was not.
Nothin's free. Go fast and generate some heat. Run cool, but go slower...
I'd rather run fast, than slow. If I have to be slow to run cool, I'd rather sit in the paddock.
Perhaps that Extreme Dimensions vented hood is all I need to keep from hitting 120 C water temps @ open track days (with 80-ish F ambient temps)?
For most street-driven FDs with FMIC (given the geography is NOT in a desert climate), this is probably the case.
It's only when you're open tracking (hard) do the water temps climb steadily with FMIC.
This is b/c you're in the boost often @ an open tracking event. With 45 C peak air intake temps, the motor is making good power @ 10 to 12 psi boost. Good power generates heat. The cooling system has to lose that heat, and stay ahead of the heat generation caused by the good power levels. With warm ambient temps, the cooling system will quickly lag, and water temps rise over the course of the run session (in my experience up to 120 C, 248 F with 80-ish F ambient temps).
Conversely, SMICs with 70 to 80 C air intake temps, the motor is NOT making as good power with 10 to 12 psi boost compared with FMIC. The heat generation is not as high, and the cooling system doesn't lag as much with SMIC compared with FMIC. Eventually water temps will climb to unacceptably high levels (120 C or 248 F), it just takes longer with SMIC.
But...my FMIC equipped FD vs an ASP large equipped FD set at the same boost level, will run away from the ASP SMIC equipped FD out on track within the alotted 20-25 minute run group session.
My friend Jim (with an ASP large SMIC), who is a fellow PCA instructor tried to stay with me during our run group session. After a few laps, I was gone.
Jim thought he had a chance in staying within striking distance, since I was carrying a passenger, and he was not.
Nothin's free. Go fast and generate some heat. Run cool, but go slower...
I'd rather run fast, than slow. If I have to be slow to run cool, I'd rather sit in the paddock.
Perhaps that Extreme Dimensions vented hood is all I need to keep from hitting 120 C water temps @ open track days (with 80-ish F ambient temps)?
05-18-04, 09:29 PM
#103
Lives on the Forum
Theoretically, v-mount should offer a really great compromise between SMIC and FMIC. Both the IC and radiator cores get air direct from the nose. Only difference is the cooling air's angle if incidence with the radiator and intercooler cores' cooling fins are not ideal--ie, are not perpendicular to the respective cores.
It goes without saying that FMIC's performance is biased toward cooler air intake temps, and better power production (higher water temps); while SMIC's performance is biased toward cooler water temps, and lower rwhp production.
VMIC splits the difference by decreasing SMIC's and FMIC's drawback's in exchange for not having ideal air flow through either radiator or intercooler core cooling fins.
I suppose one could maximize VMIC's performance by adding cooling fans to the back sides of the intercooler and radiator cores to draw air through the cores' fins?
I have the stock R1 dual oil coolers.
I have no experience with Evans. From what I've read, the Evans waterless coolant allows very high water temps, with much lower coolant pressures (Boyle's law). It's anyone's guess whether the Evans coolant temps are a result of the coolant's heat exchanging capability, or whether the motor block really is that hot!
At open tracking events, generally if it's 85-ish F ambient, I keep the boost turned down to 0.65 to 0.70 kg/cm^2 (9 to 10 psi). With cooler ambient temps, I turn the boost up to to 0.80 to 0.85 kg/cm^2 (11 to 12 psi).
It goes without saying that FMIC's performance is biased toward cooler air intake temps, and better power production (higher water temps); while SMIC's performance is biased toward cooler water temps, and lower rwhp production.
VMIC splits the difference by decreasing SMIC's and FMIC's drawback's in exchange for not having ideal air flow through either radiator or intercooler core cooling fins.
I suppose one could maximize VMIC's performance by adding cooling fans to the back sides of the intercooler and radiator cores to draw air through the cores' fins?
I have the stock R1 dual oil coolers.
I have no experience with Evans. From what I've read, the Evans waterless coolant allows very high water temps, with much lower coolant pressures (Boyle's law). It's anyone's guess whether the Evans coolant temps are a result of the coolant's heat exchanging capability, or whether the motor block really is that hot!
At open tracking events, generally if it's 85-ish F ambient, I keep the boost turned down to 0.65 to 0.70 kg/cm^2 (9 to 10 psi). With cooler ambient temps, I turn the boost up to to 0.80 to 0.85 kg/cm^2 (11 to 12 psi).
Originally posted by Fatman0203
Thats really good info. So will a V-mount fix this problem completely without any setback as you mentioned? BTW just wondering what type of oil coolers were you using (r1 stockers? or aftermarket?). BTW lets say I switched to Evans coolant and gave it a 5 psi or 10psi to keep temps even lower would a front mount still affect the temps as much?
Thats really good info. So will a V-mount fix this problem completely without any setback as you mentioned? BTW just wondering what type of oil coolers were you using (r1 stockers? or aftermarket?). BTW lets say I switched to Evans coolant and gave it a 5 psi or 10psi to keep temps even lower would a front mount still affect the temps as much?
Last edited by SleepR1; 05-18-04 at 09:34 PM.
05-18-04, 09:54 PM
#104
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Ive been reading the whole thing, since I want to do track Im trying to understand why or how things work. BTW your temps will rise with a front mount even with an aftermarket radiator like a koyo or fluidline?
05-19-04, 09:25 AM
#105
Lives on the Forum
Yes, it just takes longer for the cooling system to lag behind the heat generated from 12 psi boost.
Originally posted by Fatman0203
BTW your temps will rise with a front mount even with an aftermarket radiator like a koyo or fluidline?
BTW your temps will rise with a front mount even with an aftermarket radiator like a koyo or fluidline?
05-30-04, 05:19 PM
#106
this might be a stupid question but what about using a fmic and still retaining the stock radiator in its original spot? is it possible? and is it the same effect?
correct me if im wrong but doesnt the plastic pan underneathe the car have duct passages for the radiator too along with the passage through the bumper?
correct me if im wrong but doesnt the plastic pan underneathe the car have duct passages for the radiator too along with the passage through the bumper?
