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Front iron - just noticed that I've got some damage...

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Old 01-16-18, 01:48 PM
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Front iron - just noticed that I've got some damage...


I just noticed that I've got this scratch on my front iron. It has been ported already and I don't feel like finding another used one + sending it back for porting. How can I fix that?

Thanks!
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Old 01-17-18, 08:32 AM
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Wow, I don't think I've see that before. Looks like something happened to the oil pump or something got in it.

I wouldn't JB Weld that, it MIGHT work, or it might come off, go into the oil pump, and trash the entire motor.

How deep is it? It maybe could be machined flat by a machine shop. If it's only a few thou I think removing that much material wouldn't harm anything. I would also big time check out your oil pump, possible it's bad. Good used oil pumps should be a dime a dozen.

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Old 01-17-18, 10:55 PM
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How did that get overlooked? Where were you sending the irons for porting? Like the big man, I've never seen that kind of damage before--- and I've seen some jacked up engines

In the event you do need a new oil pump, recommend buying new. 150 bones but money well spent IMO
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Old 01-18-18, 09:45 AM
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About 0.06" deep. I did need a new oil pump, it was damaged too. I bought a new one. I sent it to the absolute best engine builder in Canada (best reputation IMO), Derwin Tuning in Montreal.

I did not think about sending it to a machine shop but I think it's a good idea. What do you (other) guys think?
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Old 01-18-18, 12:20 PM
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Sucks that he didn't see that damage before porting and everything.

I think that would be a piece of cake for a machine shop to mill down to remove the groove. May also need to mill the hole in the middle down the same amount that's removed from the surface.

I don't believe it would be enough of a change in the height of the oil pump to put a load on the oil pump drive chain. If you really wanted to get hardcore, have a spacer the height of the amount of material removed put between the oil pump and the oil pump sprocket to shim it up. But if it's .06" I think the slack in the oil pump chain will compensate just fine.

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Old 01-18-18, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DaleClark View Post
Sucks that he didn't see that damage before porting and everything.

I think that would be a piece of cake for a machine shop to mill down to remove the groove. May also need to mill the hole in the middle down the same amount that's removed from the surface.

I don't believe it would be enough of a change in the height of the oil pump to put a load on the oil pump drive chain. If you really wanted to get hardcore, have a spacer the height of the amount of material removed put between the oil pump and the oil pump sprocket to shim it up. But if it's .06" I think the slack in the oil pump chain will compensate just fine.

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I wonder if it's possible to have it welded and then machined flat so there would not be any material removed?
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Old 01-18-18, 03:25 PM
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Are we looking at the same thing? The semi circular scratches on the oil pump area? Are you guys drowning in a quart of oil? I don't see these scratches affecting the oil pump at all. I'd slap a new pump on it as is and go on my merry way.

If i was going to send it to be machined the I'd go all out and send it to Chip Motorsports to do his thing on it.
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Old 01-18-18, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by neit_jnf View Post
Are we looking at the same thing? The semi circular scratches on the oil pump area? Are you guys drowning in a quart of oil? I don't see these scratches affecting the oil pump at all. I'd slap a new pump on it as is and go on my merry way.

If i was going to send it to be machined the I'd go all out and send it to Chip Motorsports to do his thing on it.
Yes, the semi-circular scratch! I don't feel like spending extra money/time for that engine. I'm already on it since April 2016 (very busy on other stuff). That's what I thought at first... No big deal, but if I want to be extra cautious and do something about it, what should I do?
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Old 01-18-18, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MuRCieLaGo View Post
Yes, the semi-circular scratch! I don't feel like spending extra money/time for that engine. I'm already on it since April 2016 (very busy on other stuff). That's what I thought at first... No big deal, but if I want to be extra cautious and do something about it, what should I do?
I'd take neit_jnf's advice. I bet Chip can turn that around in less than a week.
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Old 01-18-18, 11:58 PM
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As has been mentioned if its shallow enough just have it machined flat. We would do that when converting 6 port engines to FD oil pumps for E-Production race engines after we welded on extra material.
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Old 01-19-18, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MattGold View Post
I'd take neit_jnf's advice. I bet Chip can turn that around in less than a week.
It is a serious pain to drive to USA twice to ship and receive the iron. I won't consider this option this time. But thanks!

Originally Posted by dguy View Post
As has been mentioned if its shallow enough just have it machined flat. We would do that when converting 6 port engines to FD oil pumps for E-Production race engines after we welded on extra material.
Do you think the machine shop could weld material before machining it flat, so they virtually don't remove any material?
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Old 01-19-18, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by MuRCieLaGo View Post
It is a serious pain to drive to USA twice to ship and receive the iron. I won't consider this option this time. But thanks!



Do you think the machine shop could weld material before machining it flat, so they virtually don't remove any material?

Sure if their welder is worth a damn, they bake it and then use a high nickel content rod.
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Old 01-19-18, 02:23 AM
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i think you forget that the surface is nitrited which tends to react poorly with the weld lines and pops iron out, so the welds will be rather bubbly along either side. i suppose it could be done well with some practice on a spare junk iron since the heat has to be just right, probably would need to be chamfered first.





but seriously, you have the worst luck with parts. do you even ask for pictures or look at parts before working on them?

Last edited by insightful; 01-19-18 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 01-19-18, 07:55 AM
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Put the new pump there, rotate it, is there any interference or scraping? No, then why worry so much? You think it will affect oil pressure or something?



Originally Posted by MuRCieLaGo View Post
It is a serious pain to drive to USA twice to ship and receive the iron.
If you were driving to US you could just personally visit Chip, he's in Detroit, MI
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Old 01-19-18, 08:18 AM
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All things considered, this will probably have little to no effect on oil flow or oil pressure. As I see it these are the options -

1. Do nothing. Motor will probably have perfect oil pressure and run great for years to come. The FD has a helluva oil system as it is, losing a TINY amount of efficiency won't hurt anything. Cost: Free
2. Have it machined flat. A machine shop will put it on an end mill, remove a few thousandths of material so the groove is gone, and you're done. Bolt on oil pump and know that life is good. Any decent local machine shop can probably do it for a reasonable fee. Cost: Maybe $50?
3. Send it to a specialist like Chips Motorsports to have it fixed/o-ringed as shown above. Have to deal with shipping and everything. Cost: Probably a few hundred bucks all done.
4. Get a new iron and get it ported. Cost: $500-1000 depending on many factors.

I wouldn't try and fill the groove with weld, it's tricky at the best of times and there's just not enough material missing to worry about that. Again, like JB Weld, you're increasing the chance that something will break off and go into the oiling system. Or you could ruin the iron to the point where it really has to be tossed and replaced.

At this point the choice is yours, do what suits your peace of mind and budget. If it was me I'd go with option #2 and be done with it.

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Old 01-19-18, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by insightful View Post
i think you forget that the surface is nitrited which tends to react poorly with the weld lines and pops iron out, so the welds will be rather bubbly along either side. i suppose it could be done well with some practice on a spare junk iron since the heat has to be just right, probably would need to be chamfered first.





but seriously, you have the worst luck with parts. do you even ask for pictures or look at parts before working on them?
I've had some bad lucks with irons, rotors and housings. I hope it's gonna be easier next time. I'll forget about the weld part of the job then you are right.

Originally Posted by neit_jnf View Post
Put the new pump there, rotate it, is there any interference or scraping? No, then why worry so much? You think it will affect oil pressure or something?

If you were driving to US you could just personally visit Chip, he's in Detroit, MI
I'd be driving in Maine which is pretty far from Michigan!

Yes I was worried that the oil pressure would be lower. If I lose 10%, that's a lot!

Originally Posted by DaleClark View Post
All things considered, this will probably have little to no effect on oil flow or oil pressure. As I see it these are the options -

1. Do nothing. Motor will probably have perfect oil pressure and run great for years to come. The FD has a helluva oil system as it is, losing a TINY amount of efficiency won't hurt anything. Cost: Free
2. Have it machined flat. A machine shop will put it on an end mill, remove a few thousandths of material so the groove is gone, and you're done. Bolt on oil pump and know that life is good. Any decent local machine shop can probably do it for a reasonable fee. Cost: Maybe $50?
3. Send it to a specialist like Chips Motorsports to have it fixed/o-ringed as shown above. Have to deal with shipping and everything. Cost: Probably a few hundred bucks all done.
4. Get a new iron and get it ported. Cost: $500-1000 depending on many factors.

I wouldn't try and fill the groove with weld, it's tricky at the best of times and there's just not enough material missing to worry about that. Again, like JB Weld, you're increasing the chance that something will break off and go into the oiling system. Or you could ruin the iron to the point where it really has to be tossed and replaced.

At this point the choice is yours, do what suits your peace of mind and budget. If it was me I'd go with option #2 and be done with it.

Dale
For #2, as you mentioned before, the oil pump drive chain would not be straight... This is my concern now, because I know some pretty good machine shops here. Thanks a lot DaleClark for this detailed answer!
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Old 01-19-18, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by MuRCieLaGo View Post
I've had some bad lucks with irons, rotors and housings. I hope it's gonna be easier next time. I'll forget about the weld part of the job then you are right.



I'd be driving in Maine which is pretty far from Michigan!

Yes I was worried that the oil pressure would be lower. If I lose 10%, that's a lot!



For #2, as you mentioned before, the oil pump drive chain would not be straight... This is my concern now, because I know some pretty good machine shops here. Thanks a lot DaleClark for this detailed answer!

He's not suggesting you machine an 1/8th of an inch or anything :P If it isn't a very deep groove there should be more than enough 'slop' in the chain -> teeth engagement to allow for the little deflection you'll introduce.
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Old 01-19-18, 10:13 AM
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Not that I'm a rotary engine expert, but IMO, that small amount of possible leakage will not affect anything to the degree that you will even be able to tell it is there.

Just my 2 cents...
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Old 01-21-18, 05:26 PM
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Run it as is. I have had damage in his area due to spun bearing and bearing fragments entering the oil system in a used motor I purchased. I ran the plate anyway. No problems.
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Old 01-21-18, 07:48 PM
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Thanks all. That's what I will do. I will run it as is! Anyway, it is my first engine. If it works for 10,000 miles I will already be super excited.
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