First race, some typical FD issues
05-05-11, 07:22 AM
#1
Radioactive Rotary Rocket
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First race, some typical FD issues
I had my first race at Tsukuba on the 4th. The car ran pretty good and fast. I had some real troubles shifting though. It might be that it was my first time driving in 6 months, first time driving RHD, first time with FD, and first time on Tsukuba, but I think the shifter bushings are shot. Even when it's in gear there's a couple inches of wiggle and my FC's transmission was never like that.
Anyway it led to issues where I was grinding gears, accidentally shifted into 1st instead of third, coasting down half of the back straight trying to find gears, fish tailing during downshifting, etc etc. It just screwed me up pretty bad. Afterwards Nakayama-san at Mecca racing told me that I shouldn't exceed 7k rpm when racing, and I had been hitting 8k because I was reluctant to shift up. Yeah I know I'm an idiot.
Anyways the damage is the power steering pump puked out all the fluid and was whining after the race, the PS fluid was burning and dripping under the car. The radiator overflowed, the brake fluid boiled, and it drank the engine oil from the full mark to the empty mark.
I didn't think I'd have such a problem with heat because it was supposed to be spring cool weather, but it was probably 80 degrees out. I think I need to fix the car before the next race.
Anyways I had a couple questions for you guys. I read that the sequential turbos are supposed to be pretty smooth. But I felt a kick of power around 5-6k rpm and sometimes it would make the car kind of unstable. What is that about?
For some reason the car felt heavy, heavier than my FC. The brake pedal was soggy and the braking response was sluggish. The weight transfer felt really heavy and slow even though it was balanced. And the acceleration just felt like I was lugging around a lot more weight. Is that how an FD is supposed to feel?
I was really surprised that the Honda S2000's were beating me in braking and staying even under acceleration.
Anyway video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbfEwA84CzQ
Anyway it led to issues where I was grinding gears, accidentally shifted into 1st instead of third, coasting down half of the back straight trying to find gears, fish tailing during downshifting, etc etc. It just screwed me up pretty bad. Afterwards Nakayama-san at Mecca racing told me that I shouldn't exceed 7k rpm when racing, and I had been hitting 8k because I was reluctant to shift up. Yeah I know I'm an idiot.
Anyways the damage is the power steering pump puked out all the fluid and was whining after the race, the PS fluid was burning and dripping under the car. The radiator overflowed, the brake fluid boiled, and it drank the engine oil from the full mark to the empty mark.
I didn't think I'd have such a problem with heat because it was supposed to be spring cool weather, but it was probably 80 degrees out. I think I need to fix the car before the next race.
Anyways I had a couple questions for you guys. I read that the sequential turbos are supposed to be pretty smooth. But I felt a kick of power around 5-6k rpm and sometimes it would make the car kind of unstable. What is that about?
For some reason the car felt heavy, heavier than my FC. The brake pedal was soggy and the braking response was sluggish. The weight transfer felt really heavy and slow even though it was balanced. And the acceleration just felt like I was lugging around a lot more weight. Is that how an FD is supposed to feel?
I was really surprised that the Honda S2000's were beating me in braking and staying even under acceleration.
Anyway video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbfEwA84CzQ
05-05-11, 08:12 AM
#2
Sir Braps A lot
what your describing sounds like an array of problems, whats the millage on the chassis? this could play a huge role into why your car feels sluggish in corners. Also miles on the motor? and everything else, i would suggest if your tracking the car drain all fluids and replace with all synthetic (trans/diff) also burning that much oil i would check to see if your turbos are leaking oil, this again would explain the problem on the straights. and lastly from the sounds of loss of coolent and oil you could have a motor issue, do a compression check and check for white smoke during cold start up and struggles during hot starts. as for your transmission issue i suggest sourcing another transmission as a back up just in case the current one is on its way out.
05-05-11, 08:19 AM
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Radioactive Rotary Rocket
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Thanks for the tips. To answer your question:
44,000 miles on the chassis, original motor I believe.
Compression is over 120 PSI on all rotors. I think it was burning the oil because of blow by because I could see puffs of black smoke coming out during cornering in the video. And the throttle body elbow had a little spill of oil on top after the race like it was leaking out.
44,000 miles on the chassis, original motor I believe.
Compression is over 120 PSI on all rotors. I think it was burning the oil because of blow by because I could see puffs of black smoke coming out during cornering in the video. And the throttle body elbow had a little spill of oil on top after the race like it was leaking out.
05-05-11, 08:26 AM
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They told me that I had to have a license plate or FIA rollcage, numbers, FIA helmet and gloves, etc etc. They made it sound all official and I even had to get a license card.
But I get there, they take my money and there is no tech inspection, no driver's meeting, starting order etc. They didn't even time it. Everyone just jumped in their cars and everyone kind of went crazy. You couldn't tell them it wasn't a race. Actually it probably would've been safer if it was a race. There were a few crashes.
About restrictions: This is Y class which is "family touring" or essentially just street cars. You have to keep everything street legal, besides that it's anything. Nobody checks so you could totally have like 600 HP and road racing slicks and they'd never know. I was running R-compounds because I figured it was the most aggressive street legal tire. I don't really know to tell you the truth. I was pretty confused about it all. Some of these cars had modifications which aren't legal in WRC even, like the loads of carbon fiber on that widebody S2K. I'm not sure how he keeps his car road legal. Some of them had WAY too loud of exhaust systems, I heard them miles away. Then there was a turbo integra too and I didn't think they came with turbos.
But I get there, they take my money and there is no tech inspection, no driver's meeting, starting order etc. They didn't even time it. Everyone just jumped in their cars and everyone kind of went crazy. You couldn't tell them it wasn't a race. Actually it probably would've been safer if it was a race. There were a few crashes.
About restrictions: This is Y class which is "family touring" or essentially just street cars. You have to keep everything street legal, besides that it's anything. Nobody checks so you could totally have like 600 HP and road racing slicks and they'd never know. I was running R-compounds because I figured it was the most aggressive street legal tire. I don't really know to tell you the truth. I was pretty confused about it all. Some of these cars had modifications which aren't legal in WRC even, like the loads of carbon fiber on that widebody S2K. I'm not sure how he keeps his car road legal. Some of them had WAY too loud of exhaust systems, I heard them miles away. Then there was a turbo integra too and I didn't think they came with turbos.
05-05-11, 08:36 AM
#7
Sir Braps A lot
i was going to ask the same question, with brake fluid boiling it sounds like you really were getting on the brakes or the fluid was not able to hold up the the extreme brake heat. my suggestions would be all new pads and rotors look for slotted or drilled, and upgrade the fluid and possible look into stainless steel brake lines.
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05-05-11, 08:45 AM
#9
R-Compounds are going to be too sticky for the car in stock form. My suggestions to get you going:
* Underdrive main pulley - This will reduce cavitation in the cooling system as well as reduce stress on your other accessories like Power Steering.
* SS brake lines
* Better brake fluid. Something like Super Blue or Motul.
* Better brake pads. You need something track oriented.
* Oil catch can - With R-Compounds, you'll be putting enough lateral forces for the oil to creep back into the intake track.
* Upgraded radiator
* Underdrive main pulley - This will reduce cavitation in the cooling system as well as reduce stress on your other accessories like Power Steering.
* SS brake lines
* Better brake fluid. Something like Super Blue or Motul.
* Better brake pads. You need something track oriented.
* Oil catch can - With R-Compounds, you'll be putting enough lateral forces for the oil to creep back into the intake track.
* Upgraded radiator
05-05-11, 08:54 AM
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Radioactive Rotary Rocket
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The brakes were fine for the first hairpin and after that they started to lose power. Maybe it's a street pad only.
Thanks Mahjik. I didn't know I could do an underdrive pulley, but that makes sense. I'll do the brakes stuff ASAP.
I've been reading Damon's thread on the catch can and it seemed like a good idea. I was thinking about using a Mann&Hummel Provent 200 catch can.
The suspension isn't quite stock. It has blue springs that are obviously a little bit lower than stock. I have no idea what it is, but it seems like a street suspension and not capable of track duty. The car flopped over as soon as I asked it to turn in the first corner so I could tell the suspension wasn't keeping up with the tires, but still better than stock. The tires are Nitto NT01 235 series front, 255 rear.
R-Compounds are going to be too sticky for the car in stock form. My suggestions to get you going:
* Underdrive main pulley - This will reduce cavitation in the cooling system as well as reduce stress on your other accessories like Power Steering.
* SS brake lines
* Better brake fluid. Something like Super Blue or Motul.
* Better brake pads. You need something track oriented.
* Oil catch can - With R-Compounds, you'll be putting enough lateral forces for the oil to creep back into the intake track.
* Upgraded radiator
* Underdrive main pulley - This will reduce cavitation in the cooling system as well as reduce stress on your other accessories like Power Steering.
* SS brake lines
* Better brake fluid. Something like Super Blue or Motul.
* Better brake pads. You need something track oriented.
* Oil catch can - With R-Compounds, you'll be putting enough lateral forces for the oil to creep back into the intake track.
* Upgraded radiator
I've been reading Damon's thread on the catch can and it seemed like a good idea. I was thinking about using a Mann&Hummel Provent 200 catch can.
The suspension isn't quite stock. It has blue springs that are obviously a little bit lower than stock. I have no idea what it is, but it seems like a street suspension and not capable of track duty. The car flopped over as soon as I asked it to turn in the first corner so I could tell the suspension wasn't keeping up with the tires, but still better than stock. The tires are Nitto NT01 235 series front, 255 rear.
05-05-11, 11:43 AM
#12
Sir Braps A lot
as Mahjik suggested start with the little things, i would first address the cooling and oil issue. get yourself a good catch can an upgraded KOYO radiator and a good metal AST, follow those cooling mods with brake mods then finish up with a nice set of coilovers. being in japan i would imagine that the choices and availability are much larger than on the US market. Best of luck as your driving on the track i wish i could put my FD on.
05-05-11, 08:27 PM
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Radioactive Rotary Rocket
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Yes you need to know what's in your car, and I agree the above situation would be pretty ignorant if that was the case.
How are you enjoying my radiation cloud over there?
How are you enjoying my radiation cloud over there?
05-05-11, 08:29 PM
#15
Here's an older thread, but still has tons of good info:
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/fd-road-racers-only-your-upgrades-your-rationale-136678/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/fd-road-racers-only-your-upgrades-your-rationale-136678/
05-06-11, 01:48 AM
#16
Not trying to seem harsh but it seems you're asking all the questions you should know the answers to. Especially if you're tracking the car like RE Mamamia said. Was this your first road racing experience? Also, you speak of a turbo integra. You can put a turbo on any car naturally and no, they werent turbocharged from the factory. Just do the mods explained in this thread and you should be good to go.
05-07-11, 11:00 AM
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Radioactive Rotary Rocket
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Thanks Northern Minnesota. I get it. At this point I've accepted that this is my fate. Whether it's a cheap car or an expensive car I'll always spend every paycheck on it. It's just an addiction. And I might as well win instead of wasting my money on a slow car.
05-07-11, 01:50 PM
#20
Good info from mahjik as usual. Listen to his advice above. Your transmission sounds like the shifter bushing is gone. Should be solid with very minimal play while in gear. They are common to break, and easy and cheap to replace.
If you are going to track the car often a good set of oil coolers (dual aftermarket or stock dual r1/r2) is a must in my mind, especially on a car with stock twin turbos.
What does your boost pattern look like? You commented on a surge of power, that could be the normal transition when the second turbo comes online, or you could be having problems in your turbo control system.
Some helpful things for us to know would be car model (base, touring, r model, etc), all aftermarket mods, boost pattern, coolant and oil temps on track, and any other info you can provide is helpful.
If you are going to track the car often a good set of oil coolers (dual aftermarket or stock dual r1/r2) is a must in my mind, especially on a car with stock twin turbos.
What does your boost pattern look like? You commented on a surge of power, that could be the normal transition when the second turbo comes online, or you could be having problems in your turbo control system.
Some helpful things for us to know would be car model (base, touring, r model, etc), all aftermarket mods, boost pattern, coolant and oil temps on track, and any other info you can provide is helpful.
05-07-11, 09:13 PM
#21
aw man that sucks. i have been in a similar boat, my car likes to run hot.
what temps were you seeing?
I have yet to get an oil temp gauge. I usually run hot after 3 laps 112c on the H20 and have to cool it down. (gheyness due to a FMIC which I am wanting to change). The other guys I was with were only seeing high 90s, these cars can be very different. You need to know at least this at all times. Heck, I feel bad for not knowing my oil temps.
I also have some blow by on my primary turbo but I have never seen it completely drain the oil, MAYBE 1/4 of the tab loss. I would investigate this a little further.
what temps were you seeing?
I have yet to get an oil temp gauge. I usually run hot after 3 laps 112c on the H20 and have to cool it down. (gheyness due to a FMIC which I am wanting to change). The other guys I was with were only seeing high 90s, these cars can be very different. You need to know at least this at all times. Heck, I feel bad for not knowing my oil temps.
I also have some blow by on my primary turbo but I have never seen it completely drain the oil, MAYBE 1/4 of the tab loss. I would investigate this a little further.
05-07-11, 10:23 PM
#22
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Cgotto6:
The temp gauge never moved from it's regular spot very much. It was always about 1/4 or 1/3 of the way up. The boost gauge is in kg/cm squared and I can't understand it. Plus the thing has no back lighting and the inside is fogged up so I can't read it worth a darn, no peak hold or replay function either.
The best pattern seemed to be fine most of the time but at certain times it was surging, like if I let off for a second and then got back on. It's probably just because I'm not used to it and being too picky for a 90's turbo system. I never saw the boost gauge spiking and it never lacked power, so I'm guessing it's still working somewhat as it's supposed to.
It's a 1995 base model. The mods are an HKS suction kit, HKS BOV, strut tower brace and that seems to be it in the engine department.
There is a Cusco LSD installed, very grabby.
And it's got some sort of cup kit suspension with blue springs. It's not bad for the street, but not meant for racing. It's got 72,000 km's on the clock.
The temp gauge never moved from it's regular spot very much. It was always about 1/4 or 1/3 of the way up. The boost gauge is in kg/cm squared and I can't understand it. Plus the thing has no back lighting and the inside is fogged up so I can't read it worth a darn, no peak hold or replay function either.
The best pattern seemed to be fine most of the time but at certain times it was surging, like if I let off for a second and then got back on. It's probably just because I'm not used to it and being too picky for a 90's turbo system. I never saw the boost gauge spiking and it never lacked power, so I'm guessing it's still working somewhat as it's supposed to.
It's a 1995 base model. The mods are an HKS suction kit, HKS BOV, strut tower brace and that seems to be it in the engine department.
There is a Cusco LSD installed, very grabby.
And it's got some sort of cup kit suspension with blue springs. It's not bad for the street, but not meant for racing. It's got 72,000 km's on the clock.
05-08-11, 12:24 AM
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Thanks Meiogirl.
I was really impressed with the simplicity and features of the Prosport digital gauges. I might have to do those. The best feature is the warning buzzer, peak hold, and replay. That way I don't have to look down to know if I am overheating, it will buzz and tell me.
I was really impressed with the simplicity and features of the Prosport digital gauges. I might have to do those. The best feature is the warning buzzer, peak hold, and replay. That way I don't have to look down to know if I am overheating, it will buzz and tell me.
05-08-11, 12:39 PM
#25
Thanks Meiogirl.
I was really impressed with the simplicity and features of the Prosport digital gauges. I might have to do those. The best feature is the warning buzzer, peak hold, and replay. That way I don't have to look down to know if I am overheating, it will buzz and tell me.
I was really impressed with the simplicity and features of the Prosport digital gauges. I might have to do those. The best feature is the warning buzzer, peak hold, and replay. That way I don't have to look down to know if I am overheating, it will buzz and tell me.
lol, i was on here yesterday browsing around for 'triple gauge pod' and saw those Prosport gauges and thought about getting the oil temp one myself!