SleepR1

I hate to discriminate here, but I need to understand which upgrades the successful FD Rx7 road racers have chosen, and what the rationales were in the upgrade path. I'm "re-building" my FD Rx7 R1 into something more potent, and would like to tap the knowledge and experience of those of who've been down this road already.

I've used the search function in trying to understand which intercoolers you've all been using, but as rceron as correctly pointed out it's not JUST the intercooler, but the entire, IC/CAI/ECU package that dictates whether the upgrades work for road racing applications...

My definition of "Road Racers" are those FD owners who "track" their FD Rx7s on a regular basis. This means the FD road racer is an intermediate, advanced, instructor, or club racer level Rx7 owner/driver/enthusiast.

For those who want to know about my car, copy and paste the opentracking.com weblink, and check my car out. It WAS for sale, but I've decided to keep the Rx7 and do some more Porsche-pounding with it

My track driving experience is summed up in 63 track days since May 1997. I'm a drivers education instructor for: BMW CCA (WI Chapter Road America), PCA (Central Indiana Putnam Park and Mid-Ohio Region Mid Ohio), SVTOA (Ford Mustang Cobra owners IRP), TracQuest (Todd Serota's east coast events Watkins Glen and Mid Ohio), Track Guys IRP, MDC (my own driving club Putnam Park).

I average ~100 to 120 miles per track day. Multiply that times 63 days, and that's ~6300 and 7600 miles of track time...I guess you can say I'm a track junkie Oh, I also autocross twice per season to maintain my Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development part purchasing privelages (I suck at Solo II, but the parts discount is WORTH the embarrassment! )

My '93 R1 is a daily driver, four seasons per year. It currently has 102,250 miles on the original motor and turbos, with 7.5% of those miles from track driving (not counting the countless fun runs down southern Indiana, and the 7 seasons of autocrossing). My motor and turbos still work, but I'm expecting a motor failure SOONER than later. I think my turbos are already failing (spewing lots of oil)...

Ok enough about me and my tired, old R1...I want to know about the other FD Rx7 road racers and your setups!!

Post away ladies and gentlemen!

spigot

iTrader: (4)

Ok I'll just start out by qualifying that I previously ran in the advanced class due to my lap times however I don't feel I have enough track time in the rx-7 to classify as advanced.

Last december I had an engine failure on the way home form Laguna Seca so I have spent a loooong time getting it back on the road.

Upgrades that I had last time at the track:
Susp:
Gab coil overs from M2
Racing beat front and rear roll bars
Trust strut brace
Engine:
Stock Engine (low compression on rear rotor)
Stock turbos
Efini Y pipe
M2 AL intake
downpipe
midpipe
RB tual tip exhaust
Apexi Power FC
Safety:
M2 Roll bar
Sparco Evo seat
Crow 5pt harness
Other:
Crooked willow oil coolers
Stock wheels
Crappy tires (had to kill off the set before getting new hoosiers)
Hawk Blues all arround (was having issues towards the end of a session but nothing a big brake upgrade can't cure

Things I've done since then (and havn't had a chance to test)
Susp:
Widefoot sway bar mounts
Unobtanium bushings
removed power steering (chris willson's way, not the bypass loop)
new ss brake lines
Engine:
Street port with 3mm seals
Koyo radiator
XS to4e turbo
M2 large intercooler
poly motor mounts
pully kit

Ok now some feedback on the upgrades that made the biggest difference to lap times.

Gab coil overs, good setup for the money, there are better options avaliable now. These were sooo much better than the stock touring shocks that the car felt sooo much more connected to the track.

M2 roll bar, It stiffend the chassis up a bit but the fact that it was there did more for my lap times.

oil coolers, helped keep my temps under control, peveiously they had been higher than I was comfortable with so I had to keep taking cool down laps during my sessions.

Things I know I'm going to have to address before my next track outing, Wheels, tires and brakes. The fade I was getting the last time at the track wasn't the worst I've felt but I didn't have good tires on either so that will become a big issue with some sticky rubber on. Wheels will have to get bigger due to the brake needs.

Matt

legendr36

I highly suggest Coilovers, Tein or JIC. I had JIC and my car felt 100% more stable over the stock touring suspension.

SleepR1

Thanks for the responses....

I'm fairly well-versed in the wheel/tire/suspension/brakes area...

I need help in making more reliable/durable power WITHOUT overcooking the motor at the track... Power is what I was referring to and I typed "more potent"...

RTS3GEN

NO. 1 remove Thermostat.
NO.2 cut out guts of thermostat and drill many holes in perimeter material.
NO.3 get 18mm freeze plug and install in waterpump bypass hole
NO.4 Use Problend "Cools like Ice Water" coolant additive per instructions.
NO.5 Add whatever other upgrades you wish and enjoy.

I too am an avid road racer/club event instructor. I am a KCPCA instructor, as well as Midwest Audi club instructor and have been to all SCCA HPCCC clinics the last 4 years. The main thing I have found to make my engine reliable is to keep her cool(duh) which has been accomplished with the above mentioned steps(Note: I have a front mount Apex intercooler so cooling has always been top priority for road racing with this config.)The car also is used for drag racing and has about 3 dozen mid 12 second timeslips to her credit and an 11 second timeslip to her badge also(blew tranny on back up run, last day of season at the strip). If you have more questions about my setup or my opinion on an idea feel free to pm me or if you have doubts I know what I am doing, feel free to contact Cam at Pettit racing and ask him about my setup. He helped design it!
Art

SleepR1

Finally, someone who road races using the Apex FMIC!

Please do elaborate on your FMIC setup! Spare no words or letters...I want it all

I noticed Cam Worth runs an FMIC on his no. 72 race car (at least from what I can tell from my 2002 Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development calendar...Cam's car is "Miss December" )...

I'm interested in either the HMIC from Rotary Extreme or the FMIC from Apex.

I read about the delta fin cores of the Apex FMIC allows more cooling air to the rad...is that true?

My only limitations are that I must have A/C; I want to use an Anfini Y-pipe, and I prefer a cold air intake of some sort. I see that the Apex kit provides us with an intake already. In your opinion, is that intake ok to use drawing hot air underneath the hood? Do you use a vented hood?

What FMIC setup is Cam Worth using on his GT racer?

FWIW, I have a Koyo already ordered from the Rx7 store. Can that Koyo be mounted vertically with the A/C condenser and fans hooked up using the Koyo while having enough room for the Apex FMIC?

What about all the bends, and the length plumbing that's involved with the Apex FMIC (or any FMIC for that matter)? Is the lag noticeable, or overestimated?

As for the HMIC...it seems to be a good compromise between an SMIC and FMIC. Chuck Huang has one in development. His V-mount appears to be the best compromise solution, but I lose the A/C with the V-mount IC/radiator setup Here's a thread on HMICs... read the last few pages regarding Rotary Extreme's HMIC and V-mount setup:

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...58#post1267858

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Power
PFC with 1250 secondaries (high flow fuel pump) dyno tuned (be sure your ignition system is working 100% and if you need a twin power or something else at 14lbs of boost or less then something else is wrong) conservatively for 13 to 14 pounds of boost (those 99's can handle it) if you start running hot go to setting two and run 10 or 11 pounds, unless you want to run race fuel and go single etc..., Pettit Intake or N-tech something very simple and open with a heat shield, M2 large IC (put the battery in the passenger bin) get the piping that works with the efini Y pipe or custom make your own.

With power comes heat so big radiator I like the mazda comp cause it cost the most , mazda comp nose to let lots of air in, you have dos oil coolers so your set there,
knights sport hood (that my favorite) to let heat out, upgrade all hose with big fat silicone hoses etc....

So now give us all your pointers for what to bring to the track to sucessfully complete each weekend unscathed with mechanic woes and how you so fearlessly accomplished so much track time on turbo's and a motor and who knows what else with one foot on the fabled banana and the other in the pit. Damn that was a long sentence.

SleepR1

Fritz,

Which IC do you favor for your setup?

I don't plan to run more than 10 or 11 psi MAX from my brand-new-still-in-its-box sequential Japan spec twins (and Anfini Y-pipe--I keep spelling it as "Anfini" because we don't have the letter squiggly E )

Ahhh...my secret to motor longevity...Hmmm that will remain a secret

SleepR1

More background on my plans. Aside from the new '99 Japan spec twins and Anfini Y-pipe, THE biggest expense will be a ported motor with reliability mods "built" from a torn-down NEW Malloy Mazda Reman by Dave Barninger of KD Rotary (Nazareth PA)...

I'm looking into the performance parts that will complement the ported KD motor and Japan spec twins (yes I'm leaving them in full SEQUENTIAL MODE)

As I posted above, I don't plan to run more than 10, perhaps 11 pounds of boost pressure.

Obvious an Apex PFC unit is in order here, but I'm a total schmuck when it comes to tune this setup. Perhaps Dave Barninger can tune it all for me?

FWIW, Dave of KD Rotary is hot on the M2 SMIC or the Greddy FMIC used with the big *** Koyo (mounted vertically)...apparently Dave has not had any heat-related issues with his customers running this setup...it's anyone's guess whether these customers are drag racers, street racers, or road racers like us????

Of course I still gotta have a wheel/tire budget...I'm ready to pull the trigger on a set of CE28Ns 9.5 x 17 fr, 10.5 x 18 rr with 245/40-17 fr and 285/30-18 rr Hoosier R3S03s

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

for power front mount/for longevity m2 large. I would vote m2 large overall its a great IC. If you search you'll find some good rights ups about all the different IC's and it seems like M2 is always at the top for pressure drop and getting temps back the closest to ambient. I can't wait to take a ride in that beast your building

SleepR1

What about this HMIC Chuck Huang is building...? Any thoughts good or bad?

Well with only 10-11 psi, I'm afraid you won't be impressed with the pull, but the big-*** 285/30-18 Hoosiers in back, and the Type RS brakes fr/rr might increase your pucker factor a little bit

I was fairly impressed with Ramon Ceron's FD at Road America. I had the pleasure of instructing rceron in his silver bullet. He has the same ported KDR motor with CWR IC. With 10.5 psi from the US spec twins, we were hauling the mail at 145-150 mph going into turns 1, 5, and Canada...I finally had to coach him to back off a bit because his brakes weren't up to the task of hauling the car down from 145 mph to 55 mph to make turn 5 lap after lap for 25-minutes per session...as luck would have it...I signed rceron off, and during Ramon's solo session, his brakes did go away going into Canada (the pads were Hawk Blues, mind you!). Luckily I wasn't in the car, lest I leak two drops of pee into my boxer shorts

Ramon can tell you the rest of the story if he posts a reply...

Chronos

SleepR1, what possible drawback could an intercooler have that flows 935cfm (as oposed to 750 for the M2 large) and vents ALL the hot air from the radiator and intercooler OUT of the engine bay...maybe it runs TOO cool??? 'ha-ha'

I plan to eventually build my rx7 to be a complete roadracing MONSTER and this is BY FAR the most awesome system I've seen to keep the car cool...if you're serious about more cooling you should also see the '32 row monster oil cooler' they sell on rx7store.net, Chuck may sell it too and might give you a discount if you buy it with his HMIC/V-mount system and hood but I'm not sure if he does...I know rx7store.net does for sure. Anyways, the HMIC is rated to support 600hp (enough for road racing?? ummmm....YEAH ) and it prbly has less pressure drop than a fmic which would dump heat into the engine bay as well.

Make sure to ask him if you can get a discount if you buy a hood too...since it's nessassary to use for maximum efficiancy of the system. I myself am planning to go with the AD 9 he just released as it has HUGE vents and is less aggresive than the Scoot hood, I guess it's preference though he has about 3 hoods you can choose from...

HAPPY RACING

P.S. whatever you do, don't get the mazdaspeed hood, the vents on it are extremely small and would do little to vent all the heat.

P.P.S. I beleive he's still working on the inlet ducting

maxcooper

I went single turbo because I wanted something simple and consistent with good power. It works nicely after the bugs are sorted out. It does the same thing every time you squeeze the gas pedal, which is different from my experience with the stock sequential system. It is nice to be free of the transition, too. My car seems to run just as cool on the track at 14 psi with the single as it did running 11 psi with the stock turbos, which surprised me. The turbo setup itself has survived the track events without too many problems. I did have trouble with the wastegate sticking open, but it didn't matter that much since it just killed low end power without changing things too much at higher revs. I did have a leak on the turbo/downpipe connection on the track once, but I just fixed it when I came in and it didn't seem to damage anything.

A street port is nice for road racing because you can rev all the way to redline without the power dropping off too much.

I use a SMIC to avoid overheating issues. When you do a rebuild, it would probably be a good idea to do the water jacket mod on the rotor housings (groove the walls near the spark plugs) to increase heat transfer in that area. I am going to try the Evans NPG+ coolant to get rid of the low "point of no return" temp that has been a problem with water-based coolant. A rebuild would be a good time to make that switch if you are interested. I am going with a Koyo radiator,an aluminum AST, and stock main pulley to increase coolant capacity and keep the flow up for the NPG+, too. I might drill some holes in the thermostat to increase flow for the NPG+ coolant, too.

-Max

SleepR1

maxcooper, I'll need to ask Dave Barninger (KD Rotary) about this water jacket mod. Sounds like it's worth having? Dave ports intake/exhaust, coolant/oil passages for more top end power and cool running. For reliability, he uses silicone O-rings, HD apex seals, and an eccenctric shaft plug (don't know what this is, but apparently the mod allows oil to flow constantly?).

chronos, 945 cu-feet-per minute with RE HMIC, 750 cfm for the ASP large IC? Hmm...me thinks me likes the RE HMIC

RTS3GEN, thanks for your detailed PM. From what I've read, there is MUCH to do with the A'pex FMIC to perform as reliably as a SMIC/HMIC...It's not that I'm lazy...well...OK...I am lazy...and CHEAP...but if my car were a full-on race car like Cam Worth's, then the A'pex FMIC seems like it would work fine!

Crispy, thanks for the PMs...I wouldn't have guessed that Cam's FMIC was a Blitz setup, I figured A'pex all they way

So I guess we're going with the HMIC, cold air intake, battery miniaturization kit, from Rotary Extreme... I also plan to mount a big fan, or two little fans on the outlet side of the HMIC. Anyone see any drawbacks to having a fan mounted on the HMIC? Will the fan blades obstruct air flow at speed? I assume the fan will only keep the IC from being heatsoaked in slow-moving traffic, but once at speed, the fans would not run, and may actually slow the airspeed through the HMIC core?

Also does anyone know anything about the A'pex PFC?

Can I install the RE HMIC/CAI on my current motor and turbos setup with dp/hi-flow cat/RB dual tip catback/10.5 psi boost control (wgpc pill) using the only the stock ECU, or would you recommend using the A'pex PFC with those mods in place (sans the new J-spec twins and ported KD Rotary motor)??

WVRx7

While I respect your hobby and admire your level of experience (more track days than me), I heartily object to your definition of "Road Racers".

A competition license isn't easy to come by. It takes a lot of skill, time and money to obtain one. I believe that calling what we do on racetracks "racing" is an insult to those that actually do it.

If one is racing their car, great. I sure wish I was, but track days, whether it is an "open" day or an "instruction" day simply cannot be defined on any level as racing.

Using this lingo perpetuates the myths about the hobby and while it may make some people feel more manly about their exploits, in actuality it only serves to make it more difficult to obtain new tracks and dates (due to liabililty fears) and it makes true racers harbor disdain for those of us that do not, or cannot race. (see many comments on the highly regarded nsxfiles.com site)

I liken it to calling any shooter a marksman.

I have over 250 Solo 2 events(Autocross), 5 Solo 1 events, more than 30 track days on multiple tracks, some instructing time but I would never refer to what I do as "Road Racing"

I have the skills, motivation and funds, just not the time or the car. When I choose to "Road Race" I will use that moniker.

Something to ponder.

SleepR1

I understand exactly what you mean. I loosely use the term, "road racer" mostly to distinguish us from drag "racers", canyon carvers, stoplight/street-"racers" etc...

When I say racer, I don't necessarily mean someone who competes for trophies, or points standings. Like you, I don't have the funds to go road racing with Porsche Club or BMW Club (the two marque clubs I would choose if I did had the funds).

"Racer", to me, means a true car enthusiast, who is not just interested in shining up the car, so just posturing with the car, but using the car to its absolute potential on a closed road racing circuit. Safe, responsible sports car ownership is what I mean when I say "road racer".

With that in mind, then, I would use qualifiers to distinguish folks who race for trophies, and folks like me who "race" for fun--Competitve road racers and NON-competitive road racers. I and the folks who posted above belong to the latter.

FWIW, I looked into getting a PCA comp license, and because I have SO MUCH track time already, the PCA road racing chief instructor would have given a logbook and allowed me to go racing with a novice permit. After a full season of safe racing (no incidents), I'd be granted a full competition license for Porsche Club of America--it's that simple--at least with my Central Indiana Region.

So you see it's not tough at all. All the track time you've amassed with BMW CCA, MADS, NASA, doesn't go to waste. PCA (and perhaps) BMW CCA recognizes your track time experience. Now all we need is a Porsche, and some sponsorship, and we COULD go comp road racing

Now if you're talking about an SCCA road racing license, well, that's another story. They have their own (bs) requirements. As you can see, I have my opinion on SCCA (mostly negative), so I won't use this thread to expound on my negative thoughts on SCCA's club racing program

SleepR1

One more thing...if you've ever attended a Porsche Club drivers education event as an advanced driver, you'd pretty much get the drift that the classroom instructors ARE REALLY AND TRULY COACHING YOU ON RACE STRATEGY. No one talks about it as competitive driving, but the material in the classroom speaks volumes. The PCA drivers ed program grooms its students to be PCA club racers--plain and simple

WVRx7

I can't say I disagree with any part of your reply. Very reasoned and it made sense.

As for licensing, I am well aware of the hassle associated with the SCCA and the relative ease in obtaining one elsewhere. NASA, the car clubs and some other entities seem actually interested in obtaining new participants, they cater to them. The SCCA seems insular to the extreme. I, too, have my problems with them, but that is where my background is and I will also use other places to vent my complaints.

After 3 years of being a PCA/SVRA crew and testing person I decided at Rennsport last year to do proceed to racing. I have a provisional PCA permit, just have to line up the proper car. Sadly, I can't afford the cars that I get to play with.

Dyre

Although you arent going single, I've heard a dry bearing single turbo (ie not water cooled, only oil cooled) really cuts down the load on the water cooling system in the FD, and with the very large oil cooling kits aviable the extra heat in the oil cooling system can be over come.
Just something to think about if you ever ditch the twins for a small single.

nocab72

I'm going to support maxcooper in this case and encourage you SleepR1 to consider a small single (ie Apexi RX6) or one of the smaller TO4's.

My car runs sooo much cooler with the single setup than I could ever imagine it running with the twins. Everything is sooo freakin packed in there with a twin setup...going single eliminates the hose hell, but more importantly opens up so much of the engine bay for air to circulate around/through.

Just my $0.02 from a wanabe "road racer"... I just need to (turn the boost down) and get to the track!

K

SleepR1

We have more in common. If you look at my opentracking.com sig, you'll see that my car is still posted for sale. If you read my rationale, it's because I wanted to buy a Porsche 911 to go club racing. After scouring the PCA.ORG website for race cars for sale, I quickly found that I could not afford to race the minimum 5 races per season to keep the PCA comp license! Thus I decided to keep the Rx7 and invest the money I was going to use for a Porsche 911 club race car, to build up my current R1 into a very quick and durable drivers ed car (and pound on the 911 Turbos during practice sessions at the PCA drivers eds )

I wish you the best of luck in PCA club racing. Perhaps some day I too will join you in the ranks of the Porsche 911 club racers

SleepR1

Kyle,

Well I think we at MDC can provide the oppotunity for you to lose your road racing virginity (as it were ) Saturday, March 22, 2003--is your first chance for a drivers ed at Putnam Park in 2003

Seriously, the single turbo is a no-go. I just bought brand new Japan spec twins to mate with an upcoming newly BUILT KD Rotary ported motor.

I've seen dyno plots of single turbo motors, and IMHO, the big power comes on too late for my driving style. Here's an example of Chuck Huang's friend's FD running a single turbo setup. They got 372 HP at the wheel running stock injectors, a rich 10.2 A/F, injector duty cycle is at 100%. I'm not sure what boost pressure the single turbo was running. http://www.rotaryextreme.com/dynoplot.jpg

As you can see max torque comes on at 6000 rpm and max hp comes at 6800 rpm. Look at th hp production at 4600 rpm...that's 200 lb.ft and 180 hp. With 2000 more rpm, you get double that hp (360), and nearly 100 more lb.ft of torque. That's a BIG increase in HP and torque in only 2000 rpm more revs. This kind of rush will easily overwhelm the grip of even the widest stickiest rubber in back!

I think for me, I love the feel of the sequential twins. It's very driveable on a road course; you don't get a rush of power when you're NOT ready for it.

I drove a friend's Porsche 930 Turbo at Putnam Park, and the car runs a big single turbo with all the torque and hp coming on at 4500 rpm. All I can say, is you had better be pointing straight ahead when the KKK turbo gives that flat 3.3-L, 6-cylinders 1.1 bar of intercooled boost pressure! If not you're going off track BACKWARDS!

Nah for me I like the twins for their driveability on road courses and autocrosses, and I'm not willing to trade driveability for max hp dyno numbers, and less complexity...

WVRx7

Thanks. PCA or SVRA is definitely in my future, I just hope to do it in something more esoteric than a 911 (if all goes to plan)

Good Luck to you as well.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

SleepR1:
Check out Chris Regan's site (if you havn't already). You may know him from events or <track> list. His activities and equipment are similar to yours, and behond his basic setup, hes done alot of other "little" things like oil catch cans and such that will really make the difference. As we all know in "racing" its not just the trick parts, but the preparation that makes the difference:

http://reganrotaryracing.tripod.com/rx7main.htm

redrotorR1

SleepR1,

With the setup that you're proposing, a new ECU is already mandated. The stock ECU will fuel cut and, with the upgraded intercooler, you will run very lean. Also, the '99 spec turbos flow much more ... they seem to be happiest flowing 12-13 psi. I've had many boost spike/creep problems with them (probably b/c this is the first time I've had 100% working turbos ... ha!), so you may want to consider a boost controller as well, or the manual valve on the pre-control actuator line at the very least.

As far as the ECU goes, I've gone the Apex'i PFC route. There have been some complaints about the PFC with the sequential twins. There's a page in the maps that you can set the transition point and, if not done correctly, the ECU can 'accidentally' leave the solenoids in the secondary position after the rpms have dropped into the primary range. I have not yet had the chance to experience this as I have been restricted to just auto-x events with my boost creep issues and I am a newbie to this programmable ECU thing.

Don