MOBEONER

iTrader: (18)

It was definitely silver, I was doing a bit of searching just now but it looks more like a BSA. I remember the tank being almost exactly to this one on the pic but it was all silver no black... But i will double check next time i am there for a service call.

1QWIK7

iTrader: (33)

Well put. Finally someone with sense.

no_more_rice

No one ever said the GT-R wasn't a great car, but it's not a purist sports car and never will be....there was a great article in EVO magazine, a European rag, comparing the GT-R to it's purist rivals - only in that light are it's weaknesses manifest, to the average joe who hasn't experienced much of anything else (or a kid) it's going to be something to drool over

Sorry, but this will make the GT-R look like an absolute pile of ****
http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/bra...-vs-noble-m600

no_more_rice

Have you been on an 1198S? That is one gorgeous machine...

BoostCrzy

I have a unique perspective of the GTR...I happen to be a Tuner specializing in them...AND I have a 500hp FD....

The GTR is a beast...its big...fast...and technologically baffling. That being said its truly an amazing drive on the road course or in a straight line....the magnanomous brembos are almost impossible to fault and can get the monster to a stop just as quick as it gets moving...and with a turbo upgrade the GTR is elevated to a league of its own... having piloted one to an indicated 201mph I can also commend the stability of this thing at warp speed...it tracks on RAILS....and dont get me started about the transmission...lightning shifts and predictable....I love it.

....would I replace my FD with one?....no. The feeling my FD gives me when the 6776 gets spooled and the wategate dumps at 24psi is like no other....its sexually violent and makes me feel like the car is about to rape me......or already did...im not sure.......but one thing i am sure of is this 2800lb rocket leaves me with feelings NO GTR has EVER given me....

-Jack

no_more_rice

Imagine that same experience in a 2800 pound car with a vastly superior chassis and no gadgets to get in your way. That's the beauty of the M600 - everything a pure sports car should be....why can't a major manufacturer produce something like it??

Nik da Greek

OK, maybe I'm not making my point all that well. The attraction for me is feeling like I'm riding to some sort of apex, whether that's the limit of my ability, the limit of the machine or simply my percieved talent verusus risk ratio! On a litre bike (a modern one, I'm not talking about prehistoric oil-boiling GSXRs or EXUPs here) the bike's performance envelope is so far beyond the capability of road conditions to contain it that it's academic what I do on the bike....there's always more in reserve just by twisting the throttle more. That doesn't really do it for me, I like to think if I'm making good progress then it's because my skill is getting the most from the bike, not because I'm just sitting like a sack of spuds at the bottom of it's performance envelope.

I'd reiterate that to ride a 600 fast takes a rider of some skill or talent, especially to ride it as fast as a litre bike. When I ride with mates I don't get left behind and that's against Fireblades, SP-2s (ahhh.. rc51 in America I think?) GSXRthous and so on. That gives me more of a buzz than clinging on to a rocketship of a bike unable to use it's performance for fear of being highsided into orbit!

I suspect the problem here is the roads in my congested corner of England are in no way comparable with most of the roads in the States, and ulitmately I feel the road is the governing factor over the speed you can attain, certainly over here. I definitely don't know of many roads nearby where I could indulge in 120 mph stand-up wheelies without appearing shortly afterward son the News At Ten as the new public enemy #1!

As to Keith Code, sorry, but he's one of my pet hates....the witterings of an ex-junkie trying to package the bleeding obvious into nice little svengali soundbites I can well do without. Self-styled gurus are always...well rather to too self and style over substance for me, ta. The S1000 has clearly moved sportsbikes into a new era, and is devastatingly fast in most situations, but then it's stuffed full of electronics doing the riding for you. Do you want to go fast because a computer works it out for you? I don't, that's why I bought an FD in the first place!

Pretty much spot on, Gordon. Size and weight are obviously of massive importance...which is exactly why the current 800cc MotoGP bikes are actually faster on many circuits than the old 990cc ones used to be! Most journalists tend to agree with your findings, too, that the 848 and previously 749 Ducatis were in many ways a road bike that more people could exploit in more situations than the equivalent range topper (916 et al). In fact, the 1198 seems to be the ulitmate expression of how race developement has ruined road bikes...utterly lightswitch, sledgehammer power that's totally academic on all but perfectly dry roads and brakes that stand more chance of chucking you up the road than slowing the bike down...since they're either off...or full on

GB500s are great little bikes btw, like a proper cafe racer of old only with Honda reliability built in. The UK version was rather more nasty, it was sorta sold as a commuter hack rather than a spotsbike but you see a few that have been converted to what they should have been all along

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Because there's not enough people that want one, could afford one and have the good judgement to drive one and besides the ones that would meet the criteria all have race cars instead or just buy a Mosler

Anyway that's basically what a GT3 is. It's amazing how many people spend 150k then strip the interior, put a cage in it or a roll bar and rarely drive it on the street. It's basically a very expensive track car.

PS The thrifty man will just buy a Z06 and gut it

no_more_rice

But isn't that true for most roads, even with a 600? Most 600s these days are putting pown about 120 rwhp, which is liter territory only about 10-12 years ago. 600s tend to have a peaky power delivery which can even more difficult to manage on bumpy roads or roads with gravel. The key advantage is they are lighter.

That's too bad....everyone needs the freedom to ride triple digits without cops hiding in wait. I honestly have not seen a cop yet (i.e. in 10 years) where I ride, it's beautiful.

MotoGP will return to 990cc in 2012 and lap times will drop. All they did with these 800cc machines is bump the rev limit up to 18,000 or whatever crazy number it is.

no_more_rice

Good idea. I don't think you could build a reliable 500 rwhp track car any cheaper.

1QWIK7

iTrader: (33)

Good input from someone with experience.

I find it hard to believe that people wont call it a sports car because of weight. Who cares if its not a "purist" sports car. This is 2010. This is how innovation of cars move.

The fact that the GTR can accelerate like it does from a V6, can brake the way it does, can corner the way it does for its "weight", can run the ring time amazingly fast and can handle HIGH SPEEDS the way it does, not only is it a sports car, its a SUPERCAR.

So yeah i guess its not a "purist" sports car, because its a supercar.

Yes the noble m600 is probably faster and can handle way better than the GTR but there are also 3983948 reasons why the GTR would be a better choice for a car enthusiast.

One is because its a better car for the REAL WORLD.

no_more_rice

It's alot cheaper, that's the only reason in my book. Since when does innovation = heavier? It doesn't work that way in the sport bike world and shouldn't with sports cars, either.

What is a "supercar"?

1QWIK7

iTrader: (33)

Yeah and can do the job damn well for its price, which is what i was saying all along.

Funny how you have to introduce a 300k+ pure "track car" that weighs 2800lbs into this dicussion.

Gee with that price tag, it better whip the GTR's *** LOL.

You really dont understand the meaning of innovation dude. You're mind is in the gutter. I really didnt think you thought like that. But now looking at your history on this forum and the s2k forum, it makes perfect sense. You're closed minded and stubborn.

But o well, cant change how you think but you logic is way off. Sorry.

And you comparing bikes to cars is simply LOL

no_more_rice

Huh?

You're a complete waste of time. Go away.

1QWIK7

iTrader: (33)

Says a guy who was talking about an FD owners track time but got shitted on.

Then talked about the GT3 and got shitted on.

Then started to say the GTR is not a sports car so you compared it to a 300k+ track car that no one will ever own. lol

Then started to talk about bikes in an FD (13b) thread.

This thread is a waste of bandwidth lol

versep

thread of the year

radkins

I agree with this dude. Depends on how big your ***** are.

no_more_rice

Amen....someone gets it

Nik da Greek

OK, since we're not allowed to talk about bikes any more lol, this ^^ is broadly true. A sprotscar is, or should be, something designed to be sporty, at the risk of sounding facile. Awesome and devastatingly fast though they might be, things like the new GTR are not a sportscar becasue they're big, heavy and stuffed full of electronics that make up for a lot of the sins of the car being, well...big and heavy, as well as the sins of the driver being not quite as talented as they think they are.

Legislation has compromised anyone's ability to build a proper lightweight sportscar any more, by law and by expectation cars have to be saftey-cell obsessed emissions-clean battering rams that can smash into busses without their cretinous occupants so much as tweaking a neck tendon. Side impact bars, airbags, collision detection apparatus et al adds huge weight, as do the gizmos everyone raves about on modern "sportscars" such as electronically adjustable damping and engine characteristics. All the servos and black boxes add weight and compromise driver interface, moving still further from being a sportscar in the true sense.

The only way Lotus manage to stay true to Colin Chapmans vision of sportscar nirvana being to "add lightness" is by offering cars that are absolutely no-frills to keep weight down. Exiges and Elises are nothing but as big a series of holes as possible held together by as little bits of car as possible, and anyone who's even tried to get in or out of one will understand the level of user-unfriendliness that you are expected to tolerate in the pursuit of lightness and driver connectivity. Owners of most modern day "sportscars" simply don't expect to have to put up with such discomoft and bare-bones equipment levels, they pay a great deal of money for their premium lifestyle accessory and they want to enjoy it, not take some Puritanical satisfaction from how extremely it tortures them. Which sadly says more about the people who typically buy Porsches and Ferraris etc than the people who design them, I suspsect

1QWIK7

iTrader: (33)

Exactly why i mentioned innovation, recreation and reinvention. You cant just NOT accept it just because it wasnt the same as the roots.

Thats like saying the music from the 60s were the best, from the 70s, the 80s were the best etc etc.

It doesnt work like that. The technology now makes the sports car that much better. You cant just factor them out as not being sports cars because of weight and electronics. This is 2010.

Pretty well said. At least your posts are well formed and thought out. At least i can relate to a human being for once in this thread.

Yes the GTR is def the BEST BANG FOR BUCK for its price in terms of supercar performance. I mean awd, a backseat and close to 500hp?? That can run the 1/4 in 11 seconds and running the ring at around 7:30-7:40. Thats around the same time as the carrera GT which costs 3x more than the GTR.

Im not saying the GTR is the end all be all of cars, thats just stupid but for its price, its a performer. People knock it for reasons i have no clue on. Jealousy is probably the main reason.

Or course those raw sports cars will be better on the track, because thats just what it is, a track car.

A GTR is something special because it offers supercar numbers without the supercar price tag. And can be driven ALL YEAR ROUND.

KKMpunkrock2011

iTrader: (5)

tell these guys their GTR isn't a sports car

Nik da Greek

Well, it isnt. Just because it can hustle in an autotest (evidently after considerable alteration) doesn't make it a sports car...any more than a Honda Civic is a sportscar....or a Chevy Cruze is a sports car, though both have won national-level race championships. Makes them fast, doesn't make them sportscars.

Montego

iTrader: (1)

or these dudes

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

To me a sports car is something that can perform at an elite level in motorsports and well the GTR is a quite a sports car IMO.

It's no different than a person who's an athelete they come in all shapes and sizes and typically in todays world the heavy weights or big guys dominate and the same thing applies when it comes to production cars. Most of the production cars making 500 plus HP are fairly heavy cars for many of the same reasons the GTR is.

Also a lot of the things that give the GTR a competitive advantage add weight:
4wd
big brakes and big fat wheels and tires
sequential trans
aero
turbo engine with proper cooling
etc....

3800lbs is heavy but I don't think the GTR is fat it's just strong. I also think because of the lush interior you could probably take out a quick 100 lbs (just strip out the back side of the interior) and possibly another 100 w/o loosing too much of the car.

no_more_rice

A true sports car is something that is track ready, period - or that's what it should be. The definition of a sports car has been greatly distorted these days to include all manner of heavy street cars. Since I grew up with bikes, I consider them a good benchmark. A MotoGP bike weighs about 330 pounds and produces around 220 hp (1.5 lb/hp). The BMW S1000RR, which you can buy right off the showroom floor for about $13k, weighs about 430 pounds and produces around 180 hp (2.4 lb/hp). An F1 car weighs around 1500 pounds and produces about 800 hp (1.87 lb/hp). Using the same ratio of F1 to street as the bikes, track ready sports cars should be in the 3 lb/hp range. The Noble M600 is a respectful 4.4 lb/hp, while the ponderous GT-R isn't even in the same time zone: almost 7 lb/hp.

Sure all the gadgetry allows an average joe to hustle fat cars around the track at a decent pace, but a serious racer is going to find their weaknesses quickly and put them to absolute shame in a lighter car. Fancy gadgets don't supercede the laws of physics.