Cylinder GLOWING RED
02-11-03, 07:30 PM
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Cylinder GLOWING RED
Its my friends car, and im totally baffled. Need help or ideas.
Its a totally stock 93.
The first cylinders turbo starts glowing red even when idling.
We removed the cats because obvioulsy their damaged from the extreme heat and fuel.
Replaced the 02 because it was totally dead and not moving.
The fuel pressure is 5psi over stock. (good enough)
The coolant sensor and harness ohms out in spec throught the range.
The fuel system holds fuel pressure perfectly for over an hour without dropping (engine off)
Actual injector ms is ~4ms during warmup and ~2ms after warm up and idling. This was checked at both injectors. Also confirmed that the computer was NOT sending a signal to the secondarys.
The car only has the gutted downpipe on it now, and is backfiring flames out of it from the excessive fuel.
Only the first cylinder glows
Replaced both primary injectors (from my car).
The engine runs smoth,(except for the intermittent back fire) revs fine, but were not driving it like this.
How the motor has survived is baffling.
What am i overlooking here????
Ideas Please.
Its a totally stock 93.
The first cylinders turbo starts glowing red even when idling.
We removed the cats because obvioulsy their damaged from the extreme heat and fuel.
Replaced the 02 because it was totally dead and not moving.
The fuel pressure is 5psi over stock. (good enough)
The coolant sensor and harness ohms out in spec throught the range.
The fuel system holds fuel pressure perfectly for over an hour without dropping (engine off)
Actual injector ms is ~4ms during warmup and ~2ms after warm up and idling. This was checked at both injectors. Also confirmed that the computer was NOT sending a signal to the secondarys.
The car only has the gutted downpipe on it now, and is backfiring flames out of it from the excessive fuel.
Only the first cylinder glows
Replaced both primary injectors (from my car).
The engine runs smoth,(except for the intermittent back fire) revs fine, but were not driving it like this.
How the motor has survived is baffling.
What am i overlooking here????
Ideas Please.
02-11-03, 09:56 PM
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Main Entry: cyl·in·der
Pronunciation: 'si-l&n-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French cylindre, from Latin cylindrus, from Greek kylindros, from kylindein to roll; perhaps akin to Greek kyklos wheel -- more at WHEEL
Date: 1570
(1) : the piston chamber in an engine (2) : a chamber in a pump from which the piston expels the fluid
I was curious if you could consider a rotary a "cylinder" engine and well since the rotary design was first built as a water (/fluid) pump then...? On one hand it's still an internal combustion engine with a cylinder (according to number 2) but on the other hand it's not. And in number 1 if you changed piston to rotor it would be "The rotor chamber in an engine" so basically it would imply that the housing is in fact, a cylinder. Man this is a hard one to put my finger on...
Pronunciation: 'si-l&n-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French cylindre, from Latin cylindrus, from Greek kylindros, from kylindein to roll; perhaps akin to Greek kyklos wheel -- more at WHEEL
Date: 1570
(1) : the piston chamber in an engine (2) : a chamber in a pump from which the piston expels the fluid
I was curious if you could consider a rotary a "cylinder" engine and well since the rotary design was first built as a water (/fluid) pump then...? On one hand it's still an internal combustion engine with a cylinder (according to number 2) but on the other hand it's not. And in number 1 if you changed piston to rotor it would be "The rotor chamber in an engine" so basically it would imply that the housing is in fact, a cylinder. Man this is a hard one to put my finger on...
02-11-03, 10:09 PM
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Then look at the definition of Rotary Engine:
Main Entry: rotary engine
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various engines (as a turbine) in which power is applied to vanes or similar parts constrained to move in a circular path
2 : a radial engine in which the cylinders revolve about a stationary crankshaft
So according to the second definition the original Wankel Rotary does in fact have a cylinder, but would the newer version (forgot the name of the guy that refined it for Mazda in the 60's) still be considered a cylinder engine? Because the housings don't revolve around the rotor anymore...
Main Entry: rotary engine
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various engines (as a turbine) in which power is applied to vanes or similar parts constrained to move in a circular path
2 : a radial engine in which the cylinders revolve about a stationary crankshaft
So according to the second definition the original Wankel Rotary does in fact have a cylinder, but would the newer version (forgot the name of the guy that refined it for Mazda in the 60's) still be considered a cylinder engine? Because the housings don't revolve around the rotor anymore...
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02-12-03, 12:32 AM
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Yes i have checked the Tps. closed position as well.
It idles normal----around 750ish
Really guys, the term cylinder is just a figure of speech. Didnt think i would get schooled on it. How about schooling me on my problem.
It idles normal----around 750ish
Really guys, the term cylinder is just a figure of speech. Didnt think i would get schooled on it. How about schooling me on my problem.
02-12-03, 01:39 AM
#11
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just call it a housing next time 
...or if you want to get technical, a peripheral housing...and, if you must use a geometric term, I suppose you could use: Peritrochoid curved housing 
ANYWAYS..........to the topic!
"The first cylinder (housing)'s turbo is glowing red"
"Only the first cylinder is glowing" (I assume you mean the "front" housing)
- What are you trying to say here? That the turbo is glowing red or the metal housing (the "block")?
We'll take it from there...
...or if you want to get technical, a peripheral housing...and, if you must use a geometric term, I suppose you could use: Peritrochoid curved housing ANYWAYS..........to the topic!
"The first cylinder (housing)'s turbo is glowing red"
"Only the first cylinder is glowing" (I assume you mean the "front" housing)
- What are you trying to say here? That the turbo is glowing red or the metal housing (the "block")?
We'll take it from there...
02-12-03, 05:47 AM
#12
Since it is a sequential turbo system, only the primary turbo (nearest the front of the car) gets exhaust flow at idle (and below 4500 RPM or so).
I assume you mean that the turbo's turbine housing is glowing red.
Try lowering the fuel pressure to the stock level. I doubt that is the problem, but your other comments sound like you are getting too much fuel. Also note that you should adjust the regulator with the manifold reference signal (vacuum hose) disconnected. If you are running 45 psi at idle with the manifold reference signal connected to the regulator, that is 50% more pressure than stock (which is 30-ish with the manifold reference connected, 38-ish with it disconnected).
-Max
I assume you mean that the turbo's turbine housing is glowing red.
Try lowering the fuel pressure to the stock level. I doubt that is the problem, but your other comments sound like you are getting too much fuel. Also note that you should adjust the regulator with the manifold reference signal (vacuum hose) disconnected. If you are running 45 psi at idle with the manifold reference signal connected to the regulator, that is 50% more pressure than stock (which is 30-ish with the manifold reference connected, 38-ish with it disconnected).
-Max
02-12-03, 07:04 AM
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Maxcooper-----yes i mean the turbo housing on the first rotor.
I dont remember seeing any type of adjustment on the regulator.
Also, i really dont think the extra pressure is enough????
Remember, this happens even when idling only
I dont remember seeing any type of adjustment on the regulator.
Also, i really dont think the extra pressure is enough????
Remember, this happens even when idling only
02-12-03, 10:20 AM
#14
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Think about this logically:
1. The turbo is oil/water COOLED
2. It is over heating, not COOL (glowing at idle)
When you put 2 and 2 together, what do you get?
There is a problem with either the coolant or oil lines going to the turbos. Check them for blockage and replace them. If the blockage is in the turbo assembly itself you'll need to get the turbos rebuild.
1. The turbo is oil/water COOLED
2. It is over heating, not COOL (glowing at idle)
When you put 2 and 2 together, what do you get?
There is a problem with either the coolant or oil lines going to the turbos. Check them for blockage and replace them. If the blockage is in the turbo assembly itself you'll need to get the turbos rebuild.
02-12-03, 12:35 PM
#15
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So if you are gay, then you are just in a very good festive mood, and not of a different sexual persuation.
You can't always used old definitions for current ideologies.
In WWI there were rotary piston engines, a very weird design. The crank was stationary, with the engine block/cyclinders rotating around the crank. I think that design is dead as was some of your definitions.
If you call you truck a car, then I drive a jet!
You can't always used old definitions for current ideologies.
In WWI there were rotary piston engines, a very weird design. The crank was stationary, with the engine block/cyclinders rotating around the crank. I think that design is dead as was some of your definitions.
If you call you truck a car, then I drive a jet!
Last edited by cewrx7r1; 02-12-03 at 12:38 PM.
02-12-03, 02:21 PM
#16
don't race, don't need to
question: is this happening upon cold start-up? Do you have the stock ECU? There is a MAJOR fuel dump during the warm up period from a cold start, enough to make a DP glow BRIGHT RED as the idle falls from 1700 rpm to below 1K. The glow dissipates as the thermosensor tells the ECU it has reached minimum operating temp (156F, I think. Note this is NOT the thermostatic minimum temp, which is 177F). The occaisonal backfire during this period is mostly normal, unless it REALLY upsets the motor, which is bad. But light "chuffing" is typical during warm up. No pipes after the DP will make the backfire seem worse than would otherwise, methinks
Does it glow like this when fully warmed up?
Does it glow like this when fully warmed up?
02-12-03, 06:10 PM
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Found a small split in a Vacuum hose routing of the fuel pressure regulator. (go figure, so i replaced them all)
this dropped my fuel pressure by ~4
this has made the biggest difference of all.
Not glowing anymore---no more backfires through the DP.
Im totally amazed that ~4 psi would make "THIS" much difference.
The sequential is not working correctly----ran out of time, but on the test drive you dont feel the second turbo come in.
Off to track that down tomorrow. Any first hand suggestions???
Maxcooper----and others, thanks for your help and matureness.
Im inviting everyone over for FREE BEER. (unless you were one of the ones that made fun of my cylinder comment)
Because the beer is being served in CYLINDERS!!!
this dropped my fuel pressure by ~4
this has made the biggest difference of all.
Not glowing anymore---no more backfires through the DP.
Im totally amazed that ~4 psi would make "THIS" much difference.
The sequential is not working correctly----ran out of time, but on the test drive you dont feel the second turbo come in.
Off to track that down tomorrow. Any first hand suggestions???
Maxcooper----and others, thanks for your help and matureness.
Im inviting everyone over for FREE BEER. (unless you were one of the ones that made fun of my cylinder comment)
Because the beer is being served in CYLINDERS!!!
02-13-03, 01:48 AM
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I would have also guessed that the turbo had something wrong with the cooling lines...Why would increased fuel pressure cause the turbo to heat up like that?? Are you saying you replaced all the hoses including the coolant and oil lines or just the vacuum hoses?
Also, Did you use silicone hoses? They hold out a lot longer than the stock ones...If you didn't, it might be worth the effort to do so when you get another chance. The vacuum lines are a huge cause of aggrevation for many FD owners and it's definately worth doing the job again with the silicone hoses (if you didnt' allready use them) to avoid additional related problems down the road.
Anyways, congratulations on fixing the problem at hand and good luck getting the sequential to work properly (you might get that chance to go silicone sooner than later
)
Cheers!
Jason
Also, Did you use silicone hoses? They hold out a lot longer than the stock ones...If you didn't, it might be worth the effort to do so when you get another chance. The vacuum lines are a huge cause of aggrevation for many FD owners and it's definately worth doing the job again with the silicone hoses (if you didnt' allready use them) to avoid additional related problems down the road.
Anyways, congratulations on fixing the problem at hand and good luck getting the sequential to work properly (you might get that chance to go silicone sooner than later
)Cheers!
Jason
02-13-03, 03:53 AM
#20
The oil and coolant that flow through the turbo only flow through the center housing where the bearings are, so they don't have much effect on cooling the turbine housing. I am sure there is some effect, but the coolant is there to cool the bearing, not the turbine housing. If the center housing was glowing red, you would probably have a dead turbo.
I think the extra fuel that made it through the combustion chamber (since there was not enough oxygen to burn it all in there) must have been burnig in the turbine housing, causing it to get extra hot and glow. I am surprised that the 4psi difference was enough to have such an effect, but perhaps it is normally just under the "glowing temp" and the extra fuel was enough to push it into the glowing temp range.
Assume a normal idle fuel pressure of about 30 psi on the gauge, which is an effective pressure of 38 psi relative to the manifold. The pressure that matters is fuel gauge pressure minus maifold pressure, since that determines how much fuel flows out of the fuel rail and into the manifold. If idle manifold vacuum is 17 in Hg or so, and absolute vacuum is about 33 in Hg, and atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi, you can add (17/33 * 14.7) = 7.6 psi or so to what your fuel pressure gauge says to get the effective pressure. Since it is vacuum rather than boost, you add to the gauge reading in this case. Under boost you actually subtract boost pressure from the fuel gauge pressure. For instance, if you are running 10 psi of boost when the fuel pressure gauge says 48 psi, the effective pressure (the one that matters) is 48 - 10 = 38 psi. With a stock or adjustable regulator, the effective pressure should be constant no matter what the manifold pressure is. A rising-rate regulator will raise the effective pressure under boost. Sorry for the long explanation, but that seems to be a confusing subject that is often misunderstood. It is really pretty simple if you get a good grasp on what pressures mean what and how to calculate the effective pressure.
To calculate the difference in the amount of fuel delivered for a given injector duty cycle between those two pressures, the formula is:
difference = SQRT(new_pressure/old_pressure) - 1
The ECU doesn't know anything about the fuel pressure, so the injector duty cycle will be the same no matter what you do to fuel pressure. So, in this case, the pressure difference is 4 psi, so the formula is:
difference = SQRT(38/42) - 1= 0.95 - 1 = -0.05 = -5%
Yeah, I am surprised a 5% difference in the amount of fuel delivered had such a noticable effect, but I guess that is enough based on the results (turbine housing doesn't glow anymore).
-Max
I think the extra fuel that made it through the combustion chamber (since there was not enough oxygen to burn it all in there) must have been burnig in the turbine housing, causing it to get extra hot and glow. I am surprised that the 4psi difference was enough to have such an effect, but perhaps it is normally just under the "glowing temp" and the extra fuel was enough to push it into the glowing temp range.
Assume a normal idle fuel pressure of about 30 psi on the gauge, which is an effective pressure of 38 psi relative to the manifold. The pressure that matters is fuel gauge pressure minus maifold pressure, since that determines how much fuel flows out of the fuel rail and into the manifold. If idle manifold vacuum is 17 in Hg or so, and absolute vacuum is about 33 in Hg, and atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi, you can add (17/33 * 14.7) = 7.6 psi or so to what your fuel pressure gauge says to get the effective pressure. Since it is vacuum rather than boost, you add to the gauge reading in this case. Under boost you actually subtract boost pressure from the fuel gauge pressure. For instance, if you are running 10 psi of boost when the fuel pressure gauge says 48 psi, the effective pressure (the one that matters) is 48 - 10 = 38 psi. With a stock or adjustable regulator, the effective pressure should be constant no matter what the manifold pressure is. A rising-rate regulator will raise the effective pressure under boost. Sorry for the long explanation, but that seems to be a confusing subject that is often misunderstood. It is really pretty simple if you get a good grasp on what pressures mean what and how to calculate the effective pressure.
To calculate the difference in the amount of fuel delivered for a given injector duty cycle between those two pressures, the formula is:
difference = SQRT(new_pressure/old_pressure) - 1
The ECU doesn't know anything about the fuel pressure, so the injector duty cycle will be the same no matter what you do to fuel pressure. So, in this case, the pressure difference is 4 psi, so the formula is:
difference = SQRT(38/42) - 1= 0.95 - 1 = -0.05 = -5%
Yeah, I am surprised a 5% difference in the amount of fuel delivered had such a noticable effect, but I guess that is enough based on the results (turbine housing doesn't glow anymore).
-Max
02-13-03, 05:39 AM
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Originally posted by maxcooper
I think the extra fuel that made it through the combustion chamber (since there was not enough oxygen to burn it all in there) must have been burnig in the turbine housing, causing it to get extra hot and glow. I am surprised that the 4psi difference was enough to have such an effect, but perhaps it is normally just under the "glowing temp" and the extra fuel was enough to push it into the glowing temp range.
-Max
I think the extra fuel that made it through the combustion chamber (since there was not enough oxygen to burn it all in there) must have been burnig in the turbine housing, causing it to get extra hot and glow. I am surprised that the 4psi difference was enough to have such an effect, but perhaps it is normally just under the "glowing temp" and the extra fuel was enough to push it into the glowing temp range.
-Max
02-19-03, 10:29 PM
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Update:
Crossed through sequential hell. Finally got the turbos working properly.
Basically for anyone reading this thread, my problems all stemmed from minor, very hard to find vacuum leaks. EVERYTHING has to be in perfect working order. I have never seen a vehicle management system so picky. WHAT A NIGHTMARE.
Anyway, now i have a hot restart problem. Basically it wont start until it cools for a while. ??? I have searched, and found numerous complaints, but mine seems to be a little more extreme???
Any help here???
Even without driving, letting the car run with the hood up. After it gets to operating temperature, the car will not restart for at least 3 minutes. ????
I have got such a headache now.
Crossed through sequential hell. Finally got the turbos working properly.
Basically for anyone reading this thread, my problems all stemmed from minor, very hard to find vacuum leaks. EVERYTHING has to be in perfect working order. I have never seen a vehicle management system so picky. WHAT A NIGHTMARE.
Anyway, now i have a hot restart problem. Basically it wont start until it cools for a while. ??? I have searched, and found numerous complaints, but mine seems to be a little more extreme???
Any help here???
Even without driving, letting the car run with the hood up. After it gets to operating temperature, the car will not restart for at least 3 minutes. ????
I have got such a headache now.
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